New Northeast Glacial Package

[mguay]

After owning my 2010 Laredo 5er for some time now I decided it was time to warm things up a bit. I posted last week about the fact that I found NO insulation in the chin area. I installed foam panels from the pin box to the landing gear and then put the outer skin back on. After searching through the forum I found many posts by geo and what he found in his 2011 Avalanche underbelly. This prompted some investigating and here are some pics of what I found and did.
1. The biggest joke of all!
2. No insulation and or covering under basement area.
3. 3" Fiberglass tucked into the crossmember in front of Black and Gray 1 tanks.
4. What is left of the wet blanket of fiberglass under Black and Gray 1 tanks.
5. Uninsulated Holding tank valves.
6. Holding tank valve cables were installed so that the cable made a 90 deg bend out of housing and was rubbing on holding tank and was hard to operate.
7. Relocated Tank valve cables working properly.
8. Looking up beside Gray tank 2. Notice the tear in black covering and no insulation between it and floor.
9. All wiring and plumbing "hanging" in space and not secured.
10. Uninsulated water line from FW Tank.
11. Crossmember between frame rails above center point of axles broken on bottom of both sides.
12. FW inlet that runs through cabinet under oven. Notice the bottom of the tea kettle!
13. Uninsulated FW tank.
14. Covered Slide mechanisms ready for spray foam.
15. I covered all tank connections with Fiberglass prior to foaming so if access needed to be gained it would be an easier job. This also promotes airflow from the floor above of heated air around valves.
16/17. Finished product.

I did not find any heat ducts from the furnace in the "Insulated and Heated Underbelly for cold weather camping".

While I was in there, I secured all wiring and plumbing. I also welded the broken crossmember.

I installed approximately a 2" skim coat of Closed Cell Spray foam from frame rail to frame rail from front to back. I did not do the other foot that hangs outside each frame rail.

My goal was to slow both the hot and cold transfer from the airflow. In the cold as heat would rise it would suck in cold air through the belly. In the heat the colder ac air would settle right out the belly.

I am fortunate that I work for an insulation company and have the equipment available. Almost all hardware/home improvement stores carry a DIY kit of 2 part CCSF that anyone can do this on their own.

I did have to cut the coroplast into 3 sections to get it all out. I think it would have been impossible to get it all out in one piece. I am not worried about water intrusion as I found the small piece of FG was soaked. The CCSF that I installed is impermeable. I will lace the cut coroplast back together with zip ties, silicone and gorilla tape. I will also seal the coroplast to the frame with silicone.

I have noticed that the outside noise and footsteps on the floor are much quieter and will report back later on heating and cooling effects.
Mike

[mguay]

More Pics 6-10

[mguay]

More pics 11-15

[mguay]

Finished product!

[billb800si]

What brand of spray foam did you use??

What you found is disgusting. You paid for a "Solar Insulation Pkg." and didn't get it??? I would be on the phone talking with Keystone asking where I can take my RV to have the "FREE" Polar Pkg. installed.
That's ridiculous......

[mguay]

Bayseal CCX

I'm going to dig out my build sheet and find out if i paid for the "Glacial Package". If in fact it was a charge to the build...I will make the phone call!
I wasn't really surprised at what I found and expected it after finding no insulation in the chin area last week.

[Festus2]

Unfortunately, many of us have "paid for" these packages. Look on the side of almost any Keystone RV that has the "Arctic", "Polar", "Glacial", or some other similar sticker and they all give the impression that these units are somehow able to withstand freezing temperatures for prolonged periods.

As geo and now you have found out, it is "a joke". It may be "disgusting" but commonplace and getting on the phone with Keystone and making demands would be a complete waste of time and prove to be futile.

billb800si -
You are not going to get any package installed by Keystone or their dealers unless you do what geo and mguay have done. They have taken the initiative and have done it themselves.

I've got a sticker that says "Polar Package" on our Cougar. What does that mean? Nothing. It is just a sticker. What sticker do you have on yours?

[geo]

Mike -

The "before" pictures bring back those memories! Or should I say nightmares? But what you did looks AWESOME! "bouncey: I must say, I guess I need to talk with the moderators about giving up my title of "Lord of the Underbelly"! I believe that I must bequeth this honor to you!

However, just a bit of advice, don't mention anything about Olive Oil! :D

Ron

[Festus2]

geo -
Until Mike joined the forum, explored his Underbelly and carried out those "awesome" modifications, you were the undisputed "Lord of the Underbelly".

However, in view of what Mike has just accomplished, the Moderators have a dilemma and your Lordship may be in jeopardy. It will certainly require an extraordinary meeting of the Moderators to solve this crisis.

The forum Constitution allows for only one "Lord of the Underbelly" - there cannot be two.

We will meet and advise you of our decision.

[Bluewater]

This total lack of any type of QC is really discusting !! For what they charge us for our RV's you'd think they had some intergrity. We should inform all new prospective buyers to get a written description of these "packages" or is it just a decal? I will certainly do some investigating of mine now. Thanks for all the great info.:(

[SlowPoke]

The forum Constitution allows for only one "Lord of the Underbelly" - there cannot be two.
LOL!

There should be a "Title" under our names that the mods can label to those certain individuals....

I vote mine to be Ghetto Master....ROFL

My next rig....http://www.seniorark.com/Humor/Redneck%20Things/Redneck%20Images/redneck%20rv.gif


anyways....back to the subject at hand...NICE WORK!

[mguay]

Today I dug threw the stack of paperwork and found the '10 Laredo brochure. (Any large purchase I make I put a brochure of it in the paperwork.) In the brochure it states the the "Enclosed and Heated Underbelly" and floor have an R-40 value with 2 layers of fiberglass and a layer of bubble foil. They must have ran out the day my rig was built!:confused: Oh well, it is better than new now!

As far as "The Lord of the Underbelly" ranking.....I am but just and apprentice! I would have never gone this far had it not been with the guidance of His Lord GEO.

(tx)


Where would we be without Orvile and Wilbur? Still be sailing to europe!

[mguay]

Just a follow up on things so far. We have camped several nights since the over-haul in temps down to the mid 30's. The furnace only runs about half as much and only about half as long. We no longer have the warm strip of floor from vent to vent. I attribute this to the fact that it doesn't take as long to reach the set temp anymore. The only negative that I have found is that the windows whistle in windy conditions now. It's kind of like the boy with his finger in the dam...seal up the big holes and the small ones appear! The next mod will be weather stripping the windows!
Mike

[diugo]

ROFL, there cannot be two Lords of the Underbelly! The rightful heir rules a nether region I hope I never have to explore.

My Cougar has the Polar Package Plus sticker. I can attest to finding lots of fluffy pink stuff in the ceiling/roof space and in a handful of places where a view of the top of the underbelly is visible. There is also a very short flexible duct (similar to a dryer vent) running from the furnace into the front holding tank area.

That said, I am an eternal snowbird and very rarely---and then only briefly---subject my Cougar to subfreezing temps.

[Archergodwin]

Full timing in a Keystone Fuzion 403. Living in an area that normally does not get much below 20-25.

It's 6 degrees outside right now, and although I have ripped open the Coroplast and heat taped and insulated the water lines to the island kitchen sink.. I have no running water.

After ripping open the Coroplast, I was extremely disappointed in what I saw... there's nothing there that I would have normally subjected to anything below 32 degrees.. at all.

At this point I'm so disgusted, I really don't care if the pipes freeze and burst, as long as it doesn't get up inside the coach. Next spring/summer, I have already planned a major overhaul of the underbelly. Part of what I was going to do anyway, was pull up the crap carpet they put in these rigs and lay down an extra sheet of 1/4-3/8 insulation and put faux wood flooring over it. (I'll have to consider the space required for the slides before I confirm doing that) Now, since I've seen how they run the water lines, I would like to install new lines just below the floorboard.. "inside" the internally heated area.

If that can't be done, then taking a clue from some home systems which run a recirc pump line from the 'hot' supply line, furthest from the water heater back to the cold input of the water heater (intermittently, like running for 30sec every 5 minutes or similar) If I then run that line back along both hot/cold supply lines as well as having them heat taped, then the lines should never freeze, even if the water heater goes out.. I can turn the heat tape on in an emergency, if on shore power.

Already found most of what others have found.. no insulation under the floorboard of either the 'basement' or under the bed floorboard.. no wonder the overshot bedroom was so bloody cold.... spray in foam kits of various sizes found at home depot... will be the ticket.

For the tanks... pad heaters, drain line heaters, and wrapped.

Sorry for the long rant and possible solutions... but I'm fresh in from the fight.. lol ..

Cheers, and please anybody contribute thoughts as well. Looks like I'm following the tracks to a certain degree already as LoTU and mguay.

[mguay]

Welcome to the underbelly eye opener club!

The most important thing to remember if you choose to spray foam it like I did is to make sure you have all your plumbing the way you want it and the tank sensors covered up. Once you spray foam it....it is hard to get it out!

[geo]

My neighbor (campsite #6) has a 2006 Keystone Cambridge with Polar Package. (I believe the sequence was Cambridge => Everest => Alpine). This past Saturday, as he was outside trying to get frozen water lines thawed, he was extolling the virtues of the Keystone Polar Package to me. :eek: With the temperature (in Fahrenheit), wind, and sleet, I quickly said that the Polar Package only mean he had a 2.5" duct from the heater to his tanks. At that point, I grabbed the milk and bread from the backseat and hustled inside the fiver! Though I have suggested several times that he should join and learn from this Forum, he passes. If December is any clue here in north Texas, he might be a member by January!

Ron

[FullTimer]

geo -
Until Mike joined the forum, explored his Underbelly and carried out those "awesome" modifications, you were the undisputed "Lord of the Underbelly".

However, in view of what Mike has just accomplished, the Moderators have a dilemma and your Lordship may be in jeopardy. It will certainly require an extraordinary meeting of the Moderators to solve this crisis.

The forum Constitution allows for only one "Lord of the Underbelly" - there cannot be two.

We will meet and advise you of our decision.

Man that cracked me up, as a potential candidate, I throw my hat in the ring lol.

Still laughing, thanks

[Festus2]

FullTimer -
Although it wasn't "officially" announced, the Moderators did meet and after careful and lengthy deliberation, decided that Geo's title shall remain with him. Several members have come close to being worthy but have not yet met the high standards set by Geo.

Your modifications and upgrades are of high standard but fall short of those designed and carried out by the "Lord of the Underbelly".

Unfortunately, you will have to remove your "hat from the ring" but the Moderators will be sending you the Silver Medal. You just fell short of being faster, stronger and higher than Geo who retains his Gold Medal.

[hankpage]

Just as the Wrights were "First in flight", Geo was "First in the belly of the beast" and shall forever reign supreme. So sayeth the moderators.
:jester:

[mguay]

Just as the Wrights were "First in flight", Geo was "First in the belly of the beast" and shall forever reign supreme. So sayeth the moderators.
:jester:


So sayeth the Apprentices as well:thumbsup:

[FullTimer]

Lol, I respect the decision of the committee. I yield the floor and title to Geo.

In respect and reverence I so honor thee
http://s12.postimg.org/xq50ujvlp/crown_05_vector_161202.jpg

[geo]

Fulltimer -

Thank you! Thank you! "bouncey:

However, I was actually bucking for the glorious title of "Grand Poobah of The Royal Order of Underbelly Crawlers"! However, the Moderators did not feel that I had served my own apprenticeship time. :D Re: http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5810

However, you and Mguay have certainly served your Keystone underbelly modifications well. I would recommend at least a Duke or Earl position! Maybe . . . for Mguay, "Duke of the Underbelly of the Northeast Kingdom" (I know, but it is close, right across the Vermont/New Hampshire border! ;)). And for Fulltimer, "Earl of the Underbelly of Green Country"! :D

Ron

[FullTimer]

Tis an honor sir. I respectfully accept, with The Committees approval of course, the Esteemed title of Duke Earl of the Underbelly of Green Country. Though my age is beyond thy prime, and my armour tarnished from underbellly battles, I would gladly be honoured.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/fd7dae30bf6e8f1722a05ded59c76975/tumblr_mvlrqduLvZ1sp193no1_400.jpg

[Festus2]

FullTimer -

I doubt very much if "The Committee" would approve of your nomination based on this "self portrait" or, in today's speak - "selfie". We have certain standards to maintain and we can't have members - Dukes or Earls - looking so darn good! Come on. You're much more tarnished and worn than that!

[Bob Landry]

This thread really sparked my curiosity, so I went back and pulled the build sheet that was given to me by the dealer at the sale. There are certainly some flags, and I'm wondering what we really pay for when we buy a trailer. Here's what I found aside from the standard "packages" that Keystone has listed on their website. I'm also trying to understand why an equipment group is listed as a separate upgrade package, but it comes on the trailer as standard equipment and you pay for it.

LCD Campsite Theatre
What is this? The trailer came with a cheap Jensen TV mounted on the wall and a bracket attached to the side of the trailer along with an antenna connection. $464

Stabbilizer Jacks.
These don't come n the trailer? $94

6 Gal Gas/Elec Water Heater
Why is this an option? It's the smallest WH available. What is the standard, no water heater?

Oven
I guess the standard is just a propane cooktop.

Radial Tires $131
That's not standard now days?

Aluminum Rims? $399
They do look nice but for $400, steel wheels would have been just fine.

Winterization $44
I picked it up in Houston at the end of March.

RVIA Seal. $139
This a foil seal stuck on the side of the trailer. What does it give you? It certainly doesn't guarantee that the trailer was built to a certain standard.

By the time you figure in the length of the financing term, these prices will quadruple or more. I don't mind paying for something that I actually receive, but really? Then there is the snake oil stuff that the finance guy tried to sell at closing like $350 Scotchguard, and the 500 Protective CarWash stuff that they wash it with. Geez, and DW wonders why I never want to buy another trailer.

[hankpage]

Tis an honor sir. I respectfully accept, with The Committees approval of course, the Esteemed title of Duke Earl of the Underbelly of Green Country. Though my age is beyond thy prime, and my armour tarnished from underbellly battles, I would gladly be honoured.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/fd7dae30bf6e8f1722a05ded59c76975/tumblr_mvlrqduLvZ1sp193no1_400.jpg

FullTimer, Watch out for those windmills. "bouncey:

[FullTimer]

Lol, well honestly, that's an old picture lol. Me, in my better days lol. But I used to really have hair like that, until a patient during a procedure called me "maam" lol. I was a nurse for 5 years.

As an aside, I think I found a weakness in mine. A 1 inch section of suction hose exposed. I think that's where the wind got mine during the last storm. I found it yesterday when reinstalling the drain plug and filling the tank in anticipation of the water being turned off tomorrow, to the whole park to repair an underground line. An easy fix.

[6806goats]

I was searching around to see if closed cell foam sprayed onto OSB would cause wood rot and stumbled upon this page.

The grey/black water tanks froze up on my gal back in 2008/2009 when I was overseas. Wound up buying a house that summer but now that 'm back in the US of A and no work in these parts, I'm reworking the 5th wheel to go looking.

What I found is also a shocker. I don't have pics just yet but I got all 3 tanks (two grey, 1 black water) dropped today. Found that when they screwed the tanks in that they used metal clips and 2 bolts per clip around the perimeter of each tank. When they put in the screws they used self tapping screws through the ABS and caused the tanks to crack and created my problem.

Now as far as artic insulation, nothing was mentioned. But they do taut a fully enclosed, insulated and heated basement. What I found was just what I have seen here. Absolutely no insulation on the floor or plumbing and the basement insulation is 1" stryrofoam attached to a thin aluminum sheet with perimeter extruded aluminum "track" riveted to the sheet. So thinking of either using 3M spray adhesive and some left over 1" foam blocks to glue it to the OSB that is the underside of the floor. I sure would like to use the DIY 2 part kits they have but $600 is a good bit of cash right now. If I do get this job I've applied for then I might pop for the cash to do it the right way. All wiring is exposed and just runs everywhere so I think I'll use whistle tubing to protect things.

Then I'll just forget the holding tanks for now and go with traditional house type plumbing, vents but keep the RV toilet. I do have a house toilet I can use but I'll need to research available space.

In closing, thanks for some great photos and info. I did have a 2006 Montana 3400RL for awhile before I went to Iraq but had to sell it before I got the job offer. Liked the space that 4 slides provided.

[mguay]

The only reason for osb to rot is that it comes in contact with water constantly. The only effect that CCSF would have is that it would hold the water in the OSB if the water source was on the other side of the OSB...but again it wouldn't be the CCSF at fault...It would be the water!

[Terry&Carol]

Mguay: how much weight would you say was added to the TT with the foam? And how did you get it so even, level?

[mguay]

Mguay: how much weight would you say was added to the TT with the foam? And how did you get it so even, level?

BaySeal CCSF is 2lbs per cubic foot. The floor space sprayed was roughly 30ft by 8ft. I installed it 2"+/- thick so approximately 480bdft. Converting bdft to cuft and you en up with about 40cuft. So the foam added about 80lbs to the 5er.

It is so smooth because 1. I did it with professional equipment. 2. I am a Spray Foam installer.

[fireballxl5]

Hey Mguay-One thing I'll give Keystone - consistency in building. I sectioned/pulled my underbelly and found 85% of what you did on my 07 Laredo 29RL 5'er. In my case, the slide caught the tank sensors ribbon cable and severed it. Spent the weekend rewiring...cleaning up hanging cables/slack cables/etc. Still a ways to go. And the "wet blanket insulation"...gotta be a better way. I work avionics and like so many, I was absolutely shocked by this crappy workmanship. This goes hurtling down the road...thank goodness the cars/trucks we drive aren't built this way! I understand ROI and the bottom line...but I also understand "LEAN"...and I hope Keystone has leaned out their practices.
Sorry for the rant! Great job on foaming! Well done and actually inspirational that its something I could do.