Interesting email from Keystone

[Honda4us]

Working on get a few issues fixed on the camper along with a few things we either saw on a unit we toured prior to getting ours or that was indicated on the floor plan. This is what I got back from customer service:
Thank you for contacting Keystone RV with your inquiry. I have noted the issues you have pointed out with your unit and I am sorry to hear you are disappointed with these items. I will forward all of this information on to our product team for future reference.
In reference to getting a cabinet door for storage in the kitchen, I apologize but Keystone does not recommend any additions or modifications to their units, therefore I would be unable to recommend this for you. In regards to your memory foam mattress if you wish to pursue swapping out to a different mattress, again, I would not be able to recommend that, however, if you still wish to pursue it, you will need to be in contact with an authorized Keystone dealer to assist you with purchasing any replacements items.

I hope you find this information helpful. If you need any further assistance, please feel free to contact Keystone RV at [email protected] or 866-425-4369.

Wth? So I called and got the same story along with the "if you chose to make modifications you may void your warranty". So.... The dealer installed satilite dish on the roof voids my warranty? That's between you and the dealer.......
Nice customer service, can't say they were not polite, but man. She could not even give me a part number for the cabinet door so I could call my dealer and order one on my dime.....same thing with the mattress, a coach that cost this much should have a mattress that you can sleep on without waking up in a puddle of sweat, it's very comfy just holds heat big time :(

Ok, rant over I still like the whole package.

[apr67]

Well the moss-magnuson warranty act pretty much says that your warranty is intact unless what changes you have made are the cause of the problem.

For example, if you added a dish antenna to the roof, and the slide motor went out, you are covered.

However if you added a dish antenna to the roof and it caused a leak, you are on your own.

I'm sure corporate instructions are say no to everything so they can't be liable for anything. Can't blame them.

[JRTJH]

I wonder how often someone with absolutely NO mechanical or carpentry knowledge has called Keystone asking what doors and hinges he needs to rebuild the storage space in his bathroom? And when the CS rep gives him the part numbers, price and asks him to contact his dealer to place the order, he gets the parts, rips out his bathroom and calls Keystone CS again, this time asking, no demanding, "Since you told me it was easy and I ordered the parts, now all the wiring in my trailer is smoking and the plumbing under the sink won't stop spewing water all over that new door you sold me. I want to talk to your supervisor because somebody there is paying for this mess."

Like most other manufacturing companies, Keystone has no idea who is calling or what level of ability they may have. When I was working in surgery, you'd be amazed at the number of patients I'd talk to who knew more than I did about their surgery. Some of them even wanted to tell me how to do it LOL

So, I can't blame Keystone for just saying, "Contact your dealer, we can't recommend what parts you need for that modification." It's the "sure fire way" to stay out of trouble with customers. Maybe not the most user friendly, but definitely the most "company protective" way to be.

[SAABDOCTOR]

Hey john i all ways charge more for the you did it first:d hand them the knife and wish em luck!!!!!;)

[JRTJH]

Barney,
I saw a sign in an repair shop once that read:

Repair charges
$20 per hour to repair your RV
$40 per hour if you watch
$60 per hour if we do it your way
$80 per hour if you tried to repair it first
$100 per hour if you fixed it and plan to tell us how to fix your screwup.

[Honda4us]

Jrtjh, while I can see your point, I work in the service industry and there is no way I could ever give that type of answer to my customers. I deal with parts for multiple industries and can not understand being unable to provide a number for an item. I did call a local dealer today and got the same basic story, apparently keystone does not list part numbers even for them, he needs to call in a door size and model number of a unit plus the vin to get a cabinet door. Sounds backwards to me......
And apparently if you touch the unit you void your warranty any way.....

[Honda4us]

The said thing is from what I can tell all these dealer employee $8.00 per hour guys other than one head guy in the shop, so you tell me what kind of quality repair or upgrade you get.... This is not my first Rodeo, our traded in unit was made by KZ and they bent over backwards to help if you need them. I am just disheartened by the lack of "service" they so far have in customer service.

[Bob Landry]

I can understand the CYA attitude to a point, considering the litigious society we live in, but to refuse to give you the part number on a common item so you can order it and install it yourself? Really?
For my next trailer, if there is a next one, I'll do like I used to do when I was upgrading computers. I would always call their tech support number to make sure I was going to have to talk to "Ralph" in India. if it turned out not to my liking, I moved on. I consider myself fortunate that I'm able to repair about 90% of the stuff on my trailer, but everyone doesn't have the mechanical, electrical ability, the tools or the time to do their own repairs and the level of support that Keystone is willing to offer after the warranty period is nothing short of abysmal. Even though my trailer has been relatively problem free, I might not be so lucky on the next one and the lack of manufacturers support is going to be at the top of my list for consideration. I think many Keystone owners feel the same way I do, and obviously Keystone is happy with one-time buyers, so there's not much that is likely to change in the future.

[fla-gypsy]

It's definitely a CYA move from Keystone and I don't blame them. They have to have an out if you screw something up. This portion of the M/M act is why they do what they do;

"The federal minimum standards for full warranties are waived if the warrantor can show that the problem associated with a warranted consumer product was caused by damage while in the possession of the consumer, or by unreasonable use, including a failure to provide reasonable and necessary maintenance."

[Brantlaker]

My dealer just told me to measure the door and they would order it for me so I went and looked on the lot for a 2013 318SAB and measured the doors that I needed (1 my DW broke when putting in a slide and 2 to upgrade a TV cabinet in the bedroom) they are on order and they tell me they will be in the first week in May I hope.

[Honda4us]

I understand to a point, but man how do they expect to keep customers? Maybe they don't care. I also can fix 90% of the stuff myself, up to and including replacing the roof. been there done that.
Here is the e mail I sent them:
Morning! After enjoying our new 381lev for the past 2 weeks we have a few questions/ issues that we are wondering if someone could help us address. 1). Lack of a heat vent in the king bed suite at the nose, while there is one located in the common wall between the bath and the bed room we are finding that on a cold night there is a major temperature difference from one side of the bed to the other. 2) Lack of a heat vent in the toy box 3) lack of an adjustable heat vent in the bathroom, a guy can get cooked out of the room 4) lack of a 120v outlet in the dining room slide. 5) to open the crank window in the booth dinette you have to cram your hand in behind the end of the booth, and it is a pain. 6)Unit we toured had storage to the left of the stove, this unit does not, can we get a cabinet door to correct this. The extra storage for pans and such is missed. 7) room thermostat is located to high off the floor for proper temperature regulation 8) lack of storage for riding gear and helmets in toy box, we came out of a toy hauler that had a full width 30" tall cabinet in the back, opposite the loft bed 9) the big issue, while the king memory foam mattress is very comfy to sleep on it holds heat real bad, to the point my wife ended up sleeping on the couch one night. Any thoughts on swapping out to a mattress that includes the cooling jell that seems to be how every residential one is now made. (Or who makes a gell topper that fits that size mattress) Now for the likes, fit and interior finish is good, love the fireplace, the glass door to the toy box, the ability to use the rear as as larger dining area with the u shaped booth. The large shower, the huge refridgirator, the led lighting. Unit tows very nice, we have put around 1400 miles on to date. We are upgrading to a trail air hitch this week. Thanks in advance for your help

I thought I was nice......:(

[GaryWT]

I was confused at first sounded like you were asking for things to be added as it was being made. Keystone did make changes to 2013 models as the year went on, our trailer is very different than others of the same model year. I had told the dealer I would only take deliver if everything was there. As for your entire email my responce would have been thats for the feed back we will concider the changes for the future. You pointed out changes to be made as for your unit it is what it is to quote a great football coach. I am sorry that they stopped putting that door in as for everything else it sounds to me like mods you would do yourself. As for the mattress many change there's or put toppers on them.

[JRTJH]

Honda4us,

There is a member on here who was complaining just 2 or 3 days ago about calling Onan to get the spark plug number for his generator. He was told by customer service at Onan to check with his RV dealer for that information. They wouldn't even give him the correct spark plug information. If you call Ford complaining about a missing door panel on your new pickup, they will tell you to take it to the dealer. If you ask them for a part number for the inner panel on the rear door, they will suggest you go to the nearest dealer and get that information. It's not just Keystone that doesn't want to get into the parts business from the factory, it's most (darned near all) manufacturers. If they have a parts department, the customer service rep will either transfer you or give you the phone number, but they won't sell you parts from the front counter. It appears that Keystone doesn't want to get into the customer parts business, so they simply refuse to sell to anyone but dealers. When you think about all the potential for wrong finish, wrong color, wrong size door, customers saying, you sent the wrong thing, I want to exchange it...... I don't blame Keystone for saying, we don't do that, go to your dealer and have them order the parts for you.

As I said, Onan, Ford, GM, Whirlpool, they all refer you to the dealer, or to their "customer parts department" Customer service doesn't sell parts to anyone. As for information, on 2011 Springdale 242 fifth wheels, there are 3 fabric choices and two styles of cabinetry. Can you imagine the potential mess if a customer ordered the "reddish" cabinet door for the top of the kitchen, you know, the one right next to the stove..... (there's 2 "reddish colors" and the door on the right isn't the same size as the door on the left. Why would Keystone want to get into that "mess" for a dollar or two profit?

They prefer to sell to the dealer and if it's the wrong color or size, the dealer can hash it out with the customer, not the telephone lady at the front desk.

[Honda4us]

That would be fine and dandy, but there are no part numbers. Dealer called me back and asked for a picture of my cabinets so he can send it to keystone. What a joke...
As for Onan, I got my parts diagram with the unit, and that's fine I can now talk intelligently to my dealer about what I am looking for. That's all I wanted, a common starting point so the proper part could be had the first time. Keystones owners manual is about as good as the paper it's printed on.

[theeyres]

I have a good friend who bought a Springdale and ordered two doors through the dealer to open up a couple places for easier storage. It was no problem and the cost was minimal.

[JRTJH]

I have a good friend who bought a Springdale and ordered two doors through the dealer to open up a couple places for easier storage. It was no problem and the cost was minimal.

Same as my experience. I talked with the dealer, he did the ordering and I got exactly what I wanted. Keystone wouldn't talk parts or prices, they only would refer me to the dealer. It was "frustrating" but I do understand that they simply don't want to get into the business of customer ordering with any of their parts. They want to support their dealer network and apparently don't want to try to start the hassles of dealing with customers for small ticket items. From a cost/profit standpoint I can understand their marketing philosophy.

[Bob Landry]

I can agree with most of this and I understand why Keystone , or any other manufacturer, does not want to get into the parts business. However, to refuse to give out information, claiming to not know what goes into their units is beyond poor customer service. They could at least point you to a brand name and let you go from there. They do not custom manufacture their parts. They buy the same parts and materials that we do, only they buy in bulk. I suppose they are afraid we will scour the Internet and find parts cheaper than their dealers will sell them to us. I assure you that if you shop around you can find replacement parts cheaper than your dealers's selling for list plus 20%. I also assure you that if you were to give them the VIN off of your trailer, they could tell you exactly what is in it, who made it, and the part number.

[apr67]

I can agree with most of this and I understand why Keystone , or any other manufacturer, does not want to get into the parts business. However, to refuse to give out information, claiming to not know what goes into their units is beyond poor customer service.

Keystone makes mid year, and many other changes. If they couldn't get an Attwood water heaters quickly enough, they would use someone else, and perhaps switch back when Attwoods were available again.

RV's are built more like houses than cars. They have a general plan, but minor things change as they find cheaper or better ways to build. Routing of water and electric may change from model to model.

It would be nice if each unit had a build sheet showing everything, but very few RV manufactures do this.

Also, as near as I can tell most manufactures of anything won't sell you parts direct. They don't want to compete with their dealers.

[Bob Landry]

They do have a build sheet for every unit. In spite of what we might think, this is big business with all of the controls that go with that, not a Mom & Pop operation that throws together a product in a garage. If they cut in a change, there is a record by VIN of what is affected and how, the manufacturer, part number and cost to the penny. Without that information, their accounting system would be a nightmare. I would guarantee you that they can tell what is on your unit by VIN just as a car dealership can determine the build components on your truck.

[Honda4us]

They do have a build sheet for every unit. In spite of what we might think, this is big business with all of the controls that go with that, not a Mom & Pop operation that throws together a product in a garage. If they cut in a change, there is a record by VIN of what is affected and how, the manufacturer, part number and cost to the penny. Without that information, their accounting system would be a nightmare. I would guarantee you that they can tell what is on your unit by VIN just as a car dealership can determine the build components on your truck.

I agree 100%, I was not looking for "free" I was looking for information to pass on to the dealer. It was how the "reply" got comunicated that ticked me off. And so far the dealer is having no joy in finding what I want either.
Part of my list was a heads up for Keystone, I know our unit is a brand new floor plan in the bed room and as such may have growing pains, most of what I was telling them was just that, Info on things that could or should be changed. The floor plan we purchased shows cabinets in the main slide, the unit we got has taller windows and no cabinets. I was trying to make the point that these are toy haulers and as such we have a lot of "stuff" that we take along :)
It's funny, they need to replace my kitchen table top as it is stained, they could find exactly what it was after I gave them the vin #......

[cabinfever]

After reading this post a thought came to mind. If I had a question about one of my trucks, needed a part, or wanted to modify one I wouldn't even think of calling the manufacture. I would think the people at GM, Ford, etc would respond the same as Keystone. I would call a dealer. IMO RVs are the same.

[JRTJH]

Cabinfever,

That's exactly right. If you call Ford asking about a part number, or what constitutes the differences between the regular tow package and the Maximum tow package, they will not discuss it at all, they refer you to the dealer where you purchased the vehicle or to the dealer of your choice. It's a matter of "scripting" (preprinted responses that are read to the customer) In Ford's case, they end the converstaion by saying, "Mr, X, Your customer inquiry number is FORDxxx-xx. We will forward your concerns to your dealer, Fox Motors in Traverse City so they will have the information we discussed today. Please wait 24 hours before contacting the dealer to allow for transit time. Is there anything else I can help you with today?"

With Keystone, there apparently isn't a script and customers get different responses from different CS reps. Some say the information isn't available, others say the information isn't released to customers, only dealers, others say, Due to model changes and revisions during the model year, our policy is to refer all inquiries like yours to the dealer who is better equipped to answer your questions with the most accurate information. Depending on who you get and your "personality" every customer will interpret what's said differently. I believe that Keysone's scripting problem "should change" but I don't think Keystone is really that much attuned to what we think on this forum. So, don't look for any remarkable changes from them. The current CS program at Keystone isn't costing them any measurable profit, so they aren't really inclined to spend profits on a program that isn't making them any money.

I really don't know of any "big" or "major" manufacturer who wants their customer service department resolving every issue with every customer. They all have a "phone switchboard" to direct calls and the majority (I've not heard of an exception) of the CS reps are directed to refer customers to the dealer for any information.

[strokendiesel002]

I have a Raptor Toy Hauler with the deck kit (comes with cables that hold the ramp level turning it into a deck). Some of the bike we haul are lower to the ground (lowered Harleys for those who are vertically challenged :rolleyes: ).

I wanted longer cables, so the ramp would match the dove tail angle. They gave me the run around for weeks before telling me that I had to go to the dealer for this. I contacted the dealer and they said there was nothing they could do (Camping World... ugh). I had all the measurements for them- even the angle the would be at when suspended by the longer cables, but they wouldn't let me work with their engineers to work out whether or not tis would adversely affect the ramp door or frame where the ramp door is attached.

I thought that this would be something that they'd be interested in, as they could offer it as an additional item to sell, but alas, no matter how much leg work I did for them, they denied me.:confused:

[JRTJH]

strokendiesel002
,

Ford won't paint one truck for one customer a custom color either. Henry Ford started that with the assembly line during the Model A era. I think the marketing statements then were, "You can get a Ford Model A in any color you want, just as long as it's black." You get what they offer, or take it somewhere to a custom shop to get it painted. You can't even get the "Platinum grill in an XLT" from the assembly line. You "may" find a dealer that will custom paint or install the grill for you, but the factory won't touch it. Now if you're a "big customer" and buy all your trucks from them, they will do a fleet custom paint run for you. Even then, you have to buy a minumum number of trucks to get the custom paint. So it doesn't suprise me that Keystone didn't want to get involved in a "one time" custom bed install, even if there was a chance that more people might want it. The cost of tooling that, advertising it, adding it to the optional equipment list, reprinting all the brochures, getting parts in stock, it's no suprise they wouldn't do it.

Almost any assembly line produced product has only so many options. If you start building "custom rigs" on a "standard assembly line" you have no idea how confusing and how many unhappy customers you'll have when they realize, we wanted the taller bed, no you ordered the lower bed, no we didn't, change it out. I wouldn't want to be the assembly line manager trying to keep all those things separate. If it were "ONLY THE BED" probably not an issue, but what about the customer that wants buttons sewn on his dinette cushions, the guy that wants silver, not bronze cabinet hardware... Where do you draw the line? I think you found Keystone's answer with your bed issue. They just don't do it.

I'm of the opinion that if they did start trying to do that, the cost of running a standard trailer down the line would go up to accommodate the extra expense in the custom orders, so the price out the door for all of the RV's produced will probably climb. In the competetive market, if Jayco is selling at one price point, Keystone "must" market in that price point with comparable models, If they are a couple hundred higher, there goes the competetion.... Your ideas about a lower bed just don't stack up to selling me the RV I want at a higher price. I wouldn't buy, many people wouldn't, so to remain competetive, Keystone just won't go there.

[Brantlaker]

When you call Ford you are talking to someone in Vancouver,Canada that's a long way from Dearborn,Mi. What happens is a Customer Assistance Request is generated and sent to the Selling Dealer to handle.If you want Parts go to fordparts.com and with Vin number you can find any part that you need and it will be sent to any dealer you want. and it gives you the price. Most of the time even the dealer can't get a straight answer from them.I have 35 years working in Ford Dealers as a manager. It felt really good when I quit hitting my head against the wall.:banghead:

[JRTJH]

When you call Ford you are talking to someone in Vancouver,Canada that's a long way from Dearborn,Mi. What happens is a Customer Assistance Request is generated and sent to the Selling Dealer to handle.If you want Parts go to fordparts.com and with Vin number you can find any part that you need and it will be sent to any dealer you want. and it gives you the price. Most of the time even the dealer can't get a straight answer from them.I have 35 years working in Ford Dealers as a manager. It felt really good when I quit hitting my head against the wall.:banghead:

That website is for ordering parts online for retail sale through a dealer. The system is a customer support parts center staffed and supported by Ford. It's an entirely different animal than the Keystone manufacturing plant. Keystone has no comprable customer support parts center. Try to get the Ford CS in Vancouver to give you part numbers for the lug nuts on an XLT vs an FX4. They will give you the same answer that keystone CS should be giving, "Contact your dealer for that information"

And, believe it or not, if you go through TASCAPARTS.COM, you can get parts for Ford built vehicles about 35% cheaper than at fordparts.com. TASCAPARTS.COM is actually Tasca Ford in Cranston, RI. They recently expanded to include Chrysler and MOPAR products. They are cheaper than any Ford dealership I've seen for parts and have an enormous internet based parts supply house.

However back to the comments above. Keystone has no such animal as a Customer Support Parts Center. So comparing the two, Ford's and Keystone's parts supply system is not possible as they are "apples and oranges" different. Apparently, they have chosen not to go that route, but rather to refer all requets from customers to their dealer network. If it would mean an increase in pricing on all their products to build a CS Parts service, I'm not in favor of them changing the system. I paid enough for my RV as it is, I really don't want to pay another several hundred dollars (or more) for the convenience of ordering parts by calling the Indiana plant and having them delivered to my dealer for pickup (as with the ford system). Currently I can call my dealer and do the same thing without Keystone spending money to build another entity (business) within their manufacturing framework.

If you understand the Keystone parts system and work within it, it functions as effeciently as the Ford Parts system. I think, the key is understanding how the system works and finding a dealer that actually cares enough about what service he provides you, so that he will do the job correctly the first time.

There is a website that was posted a few days ago that carries "replacement items" for Keystone RV's. When I checked that site, they had everything from doors to furniture, appliances to hardware. So, there is, at least a somewhat similar Customer Support Parts service at one dealership. However, that business is not affiliated with Keystone RV in Goshen IN.

[Honda4us]

I understand the difference, it was just the abrupt way it was presented. I had the KZ unit for 9 years, I could call up customer service and get an answer or get help on getting an issue resolved. I'll just have to adjust to it.... That said my selling dealer did make some headway in getting a few thing taken care of, parts are ordered. The bedroom heat I am fixing this weekend if my work schedule permits, no joy from keystone there.

[Ivezy]

We are new Keystone Cougar 5th wheel owners and I'm impressed you even received a reply from Keystone customer service. They had sent us a "welcome to Keystone" email with a rating for customer service and if there were any issues to please comment and submit.

We had many issues to comment on, primary being very poor installation, workmanship and assembly (both the grey and black drain valves were not even hooked up), obvious items when entering the RV were not level, not screwed in or fastened, plus cushions too big for the couch. The list went on.

Sent this in over three (3) weeks ago and not a word since. Apparently a little too much effort required by Keystone to reply.

Needless to say we are not impressed with the Keystone company customer service or Cougar product.

Fortunately for us we had an exceptional dealer we purchased from and they were Grade A+ for support. Tacoma RV, Washington state. However, it started to get a little old taking our RV back to our dealer after every trip with more issues, so thought we would wait until the end of this summer and take it in with all the accumulated problems.

Good luck with your Keystone.

[BobnLee]

Thank god I'm not the only one that did this. I did it in February on the way to Florida. Got right on the forum for advice and went to Walmart where I purchased a tube of wood glue and surprisingly enough the exact same hinges that I needed. Glued it up stood it on its side with a case of water for weight and went to bed thinking this might be good enough to get me to Florida. Next morning you could not see where the door had snapped and it was snapped right in half. I could not believe it. Got to Florida and phoned Camping world (because im a little anal)giving make and model and they just brushed me off.
Door still there and you need a magnifying glass to see the break. Now if I could only fix my vanity where the fake wood peeled off because of a leak I would be happy.