New guy looking for knowledge on truck size for Copper Canyon

[Back Country]

Hi all I am new to this forum but a long time camper. I have camped for many years and I am at the point we are ready to buy a trailer and truck and just want to do it right. Sorry don’t trust sales man!

I am the kind of guy that likes to do his research before buying anything major. We have been told to pick the trailer then buy the truck and that’s what we are looking at doing? I want to make sure that the truck I purchase will safe to haul my family and the trailer I am looking at.

We have narrowed down our search to the Keystone Sprinter Copper Canyon this is what I have found for specs:"bouncey:
Name:Sprinter Copper Canyon
Model:324FWBHS
Bunk rooms:yes
Bunk Room Door Type:door
Number of slides:3
Outdoor Kitchen:yes
Sleeps:10
Sofa in Bunk area:Air Bed
Dry Hitch Weight:1896
Unloaded Vehicle Weight:10869
GVWR:na
Cargo Carrying Capacity:3291
Exterior Length:38' 6"
Exterior Height:12' 8"
Exterior Width:na
Fresh Water Capacity:49 gal.
Gray Water Capacity :32 gal.
Black Water Capacity:96 gal.
Awning Size:na

Since I am still learning I wanted to get some advice from the forum!
Would I be ok with a Ford F250 SRW 4X2 Crew Cab:
6.2L Gas V8
Axle Ratio @ 3.73
GCWR 19000
Max Loaded Trailer Weight Rating is 12500
I am open to Diesel also but not sure how much more a F250 Diesel would run me?

Oh it will be and my four girls with my two dogs German Short Hair and German Shepard camping....

Thanks in advance for any advice or input.
:)We all have to learn somehow…..

(Moderator's Note: This post moved from Fifth Wheel category to here since poster looking for info on tow vehicle)

[muddynoll]

If it were me I would be looking at a F350 or 3500 Dually for the heavier axel and better stability.JMHO

[fla-gypsy]

That trailer is 1 ton DRW territory IMO

[Javi]

dually country...

Diesel is 7K to 8K extra and worth every penny if that trailer ain't gonna be a driveway queen...IMO

[timd3200]

We have a copper canyon 298 fw bunk house. Empty weight is around 8500. I pull it with a 2008 F 250 crew cab 4X4 with a 5.4 and 4.10 rear end. It pulls it fine. I got a tuner that locks it out of over drive. I can run 65 all day. If I had the choice I would get a Dually diesel if money wasn't an object. If nothing else I would get a 350 and 4.10 rear end ratio.

[f6bits]

From the numbers you posted, the GVWR of the trailer would be 14000 (dry + cargo).

With 20% on the pin, that'd be 2800 lbs in the bed of your truck plus another couple hundred for the hitch and another 800 for you and the six kids.

You're gonna need a mighty big truck. 3500 lbs cargo capacity or so.

[Jim W]

Here is a free PDF Booklet that can be down loaded from the internet it is called Turbo Diesel Buying Guide from Turbo Diesel Register.Com. Although the booklet is geared towards the Ram and Cummins truck the information will help in looking at used diesel trucks and also maybe a new one.

The other link will provide information on towing weights and axle weights for trucks depending on options that are on the truck or tow vehicle.

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/magazines/buyersguide.phtml

http://www.trailerlife.com/trailer-towing-guides/

Jim W.

[x96mnn]

Based on the towing Guide for all the trucks Manufactured in 2013 by the big 3

Silverado/Sierra 2500 Ext Cab with the 4.10 2wd, 6.0L has a max tow of 14,400
Same Config above in CC is 14,300
Diesel in the same as above jumps you over 16,000
3500 have similar options that only give you what the 2500 is rated for but again options as high as 22,600 with the right configuration

Dodge has a 2500 CC 5.7L 2WD with a 6 speed Auto and 4.10 rear that max out at 14,000
Quad Cab same config as above is 13,900
Diesel again in the same configs jumps you into the 15,500 area
Same to be aid for the 3500 Dodge, you could buy one and end up with less towing as the 2500 but configurations as high as 20,950

The biggest F250 with Crew Cab with gas V8 comes in at 12,500 max tow.
If Ford is your choice they make a 350 2wd V8 with 15000pds max tow may be the one to go with. You can config with Dually and Diesel in ford up to 23,500pds

My choice would be anyone of the options that gave me at least 14,000. The chances of you reaching the max is slim but again comes down to what you will be doing and how much gear.

My Guide does not tell me max payload but 13% of your total puts you around 1800pds and with that I would want between 2500 and 3000pds payload. If your in the 2500 range and would be sitting around 1800 on the pin I would add airbags. It will not increase your max payload but will help with squat of the truck and be a better tow. I believe most of these truck offer a heavy duty payload package that would look after this concern.

[Comptech]

Get the biggest TV you can afford, then you never have to worry about the 5er being too heavy. But really sounds like your need a 350 dully diesel, long-bed....

[mhs4771]

I bet you come closer to the gross weight than you think. With 6 kids (two and four legged) and all the stuff they'll bring with them it will add up in a hurry. Since I don't see mention of your type of camping I can only suggest same as others, get as much TV as you can afford. When we first thought about a 5er I started looking at 250/2500 series but couldn't find anything with extended cab, long bed, and towing package. Local dealer offered a new 3500 dually for less than ordering a 2500, sure glad we went with the 3500 dually as our first 5er was a Montana that would have been at or over the limits of the 2500.

[hankpage]

Forget max tow capacity .... PAYLOAD, PAYLOAD, PAYLOAD. Between pin weight and passengers and gear you will be overloaded with any 3/4 ton. 1 ton srw minimum but drw recommended. JM2¢, Hank

[Back Country]

Thanks for all the info at least now I know what direction to go in. (tx)

[michael]

The scare crow on the wizard of ozz said ,,,, GO THIS WAY :banghead:

[Digby]

Back Country,
Congratulations on your 5er choice. We just took delivery of the same unit last Saturday. I am pulling with an 04 Ram 3500 SRW with 3.73 rears and I know I am pushing my GVW.If I have trouble pulling the hills of the north east I may bump to the 4.10 rears. My wife has been loading it up over the last week and I am going to run it to the CAT scale up the road. Talking to the dealer the 5er was over 11,000 leaving the lot because we added the 3 slide toppers and it had full propane tanks. Also, remember when figuring GVW of the TV, I Believe that the manufacturers only calculate one occupant at 160LBS. Good luck in your search and Happy camping.

[rhagfo]

Forget max tow capacity .... PAYLOAD, PAYLOAD, PAYLOAD. Between pin weight and passengers and gear you will be overloaded with any 3/4 ton. 1 ton srw minimum but drw recommended. JM2¢, Hank

X2

With that GVWR you are looking at minimum 1 ton SRW (newer) otherwise a dually. It can be pulled with a gas engine, but the experance with be a lot better with a diesel as long as you stay away from a Ford 6.0.

[Cougarfamily]

X2

With that GVWR you are looking at minimum 1 ton SRW (newer) otherwise a dually. It can be pulled with a gas engine, but the experance with be a lot better with a diesel as long as you stay away from a Ford 6.0.

I believe he will also want to steer clear of '08-'11 or '12 Dodge w/Cummins.

[Jim W]

Forget max tow capacity .... PAYLOAD, PAYLOAD, PAYLOAD. Between pin weight and passengers and gear you will be overloaded with any 3/4 ton. 1 ton srw minimum but drw recommended. JM2¢, Hank

Hank according to the Ram Body Builders.COM web site and I quote "Payload and maximum trailer weight are mutually exclusive"
To me this means as I have stated in the past payload is for the material you carry in the bed such as bricks, sand and dirt. The trailer towing does not fall under the payload requirements.

Jim W.

[Jim W]

I believe he will also want to steer clear of '08-'11 or '12 Dodge w/Cummins.

WHY???
Jim W.

[Cougarfamily]

WHY???
Jim W.

Blowing head gaskets. Have been refered by some in diesel mags as the new "6.0".

[Javi]

Hank according to the Ram Body Builders.COM web site and I quote "Payload and maximum trailer weight are mutually exclusive"
To me this means as I have stated in the past payload is for the material you carry in the bed such as bricks, sand and dirt. The trailer towing does not fall under the payload requirements.

Jim W.

So from your point of view the trailer's pin or tongue weight has no effect on the payload... HUmmmmmm

[mhs4771]

So if I have a TV with a 5000 Lb cargo cap, I can hookup my 5er with 4000 Lbs of pin weight and still load in 5000 Lbs of bricks.............Then sit back a watch the tires explode and spings to break, right?

[KenBob]

Blowing head gaskets. Have been refered by some in diesel mags as the new "6.0".

I work at a Ram dealer. As long as the 6.7 has been out, maybe about 10 vehicles have had head gasket issues at our dealer. Maybe the failures are from aftermarket upgrades. A little research showed that head gasket issues happen with modified engines. You should put some evidence, statistics, or other information other than "refered by some in diesel mags....." before a post is made.

[SAD]

My 07 6.7 is doing fine!

[Cougarfamily]

My 07 6.7 is doing fine!

As is our 6.0!

[NMRVer]

I've got the 324FWBHS also, but I pull it with my 2004 F250 CC 6.0l LB diesel with rear air bags. I haven't had any problems and have pulled it from coast to coast. Maybe I need to rethink this, am I over the GV ratings?? Subscript for safety. :banghead:

[Jim W]

So from your point of view the trailer's pin or tongue weight has no effect on the payload... HUmmmmmm

That is correct. Do a free body diagram (force diagram) this will show you that all of the loading is being transferred to the frame and then to the axles/tires. As long as you do not exceed the GAWR and the GCVW ratings you are within the safe design parameters set for by the manufactures.

See what “SAE” says about towing and how it is to be applied to the vehicle.

Jim W.

[jforrest]

I'm new to this site, but have been camping for years. I've found that a 4 wheel drive is essential if you do much back country camping. I have a habit of camping in a few tight areas and without 4 wheel drive, some of my trips would be impossible. One ton diesel works for me.

[Javi]

That is correct. Do a free body diagram (force diagram) this will show you that all of the loading is being transferred to the frame and then to the axles/tires. As long as you do not exceed the GAWR and the GCVW ratings you are within the safe design parameters set for by the manufactures.

See what “SAE” says about towing and how it is to be applied to the vehicle.

Jim W.

Hank according to the Ram Body Builders.COM web site and I quote "Payload and maximum trailer weight are mutually exclusive"
To me this means as I have stated in the past payload is for the material you carry in the bed such as bricks, sand and dirt. The trailer towing does not fall under the payload requirements.

Jim W.

Perhaps you might rethink your statement...

Payload is the remaining sum after one subtracts the actual weight of the vehicle from the registered GVWR. 10,000 - 7310= 2690

I think most of us will agree that weight placed in or about the vehicle has an effect on payload whether it be a cord of firewood or a pipe bumper... The GVWR is a limit subscribed by the manufacturer and in some states is the registered maximum weight of that vehicle. Pin weight or tongue weight certainly fall within that category and have bearing on payload..

I will state for the record that it is fully possible to exceed the GVWR while not exceeding the GAWR and visa versa...

I suppose in the strictest sense it is possibly to tow a trailer with little to no tongue or pin weight but I don't believe such is practical for a discussion about travel trailers or 5th wheel camping trailers. I think most of us understand that there must be a reasonable amount of downward force on either the pin or the hitch ball in order for the trailer to tow well..

So in effect the applicable pin or tongue weight and it's effect on the GAWR and payload would dictate the maximum size trailer that any vehicle could pull.

[Jim W]

Javi:
As I quote some of your statements.
“Perhaps you might rethink your statement... NO!

So in effect the applicable pin or tongue weight and it's effect on the GAWR and payload would dictate the maximum size trailer that any vehicle could pull.”

Then how can a 2008 Mega Cab 3500HD SRW truck with 3:73 gear set with a GAWR of 6,200 LBS can tow a 13,500LBS trailer and a payload rating of 2,730 LBS. Now the same truck but with a 4:10 gear set which has the same GAWR can tow a 16,500LBS trailer with the same payload rating of 2,730 LBS. How can this happen using your statement? Per Ram what dictates the towing ability is the HP, TQ, type of transmission and axle gear ratio for any given truck with the same basic design features such as frame tires/rims and spring packs.

My data is from the official Ram Body Builders website which list all of the engineering facts needed to up fit and design a truck for either towing or adding a chassis body to them.

Jim W.

[Javi]

Javi:
As I quote some of your statements.
“Perhaps you might rethink your statement... NO!

So in effect the applicable pin or tongue weight and it's effect on the GAWR and payload would dictate the maximum size trailer that any vehicle could pull.”

Then how can a 2008 Mega Cab 3500HD SRW truck with 3:73 gear set with a GAWR of 6,200 LBS can tow a 13,500LBS trailer and a payload rating of 2,730 LBS. Now the same truck but with a 4:10 gear set which has the same GAWR can tow a 16,500LBS trailer with the same payload rating of 2,730 LBS. How can this happen using your statement? Per Ram what dictates the towing ability is the HP, TQ, type of transmission and axle gear ratio for any given truck with the same basic design features such as frame tires/rims and spring packs.

My data is from the official Ram Body Builders website which list all of the engineering facts needed to up fit and design a truck for either towing or adding a chassis body to them.

Jim W.

Okay... I see where your misunderstanding is...

The maximum trailer that the vehicle can tow is based on power (pulling and stopping) not weight...

However, one cannot escape the fact that there is weight associated with the pin or tongue of a camping trailer..

In your example for instance.... you gave some of the numbers... 6200 lbs GAWR and payload of 2730 lbs. Now assuming that you are referencing a 5th wheel with a pin weight of between 20% and 25% in your first example a trailer weighing 13,500 lbs... 13500 x .2 = 2700 lbs a number just under the allowed payload... okay now 13500 x .25 = 3375lbs a number substantially more than the allowable payload...

Payload is a number derived from subtracting the actual weight of the vehicle from the GVWR... the number on the sticker has no correlation to the real world, as we all add things to our trucks which diminish the actual payload number....

Bottom line is you simply misunderstood the statement that payload and maximum trailer weight are mutually exclusive... which by the way is a true statement...

In fact they are mutually exclusive because one is based on power and the other is based on the carrying capacity of the frame, axles and tires less the weight of everything applying down force (weight) to those components... this includes the pin or tongue weight of a camping trailer...

While the truck has the stopping and pulling power to pull a 16K trailer... it simply can't carry the necessary weight to actually do it... unless you can find a way to reduce the load on the truck and still get the trailer to track straight down the road...

[mhs4771]

There is a way, was just posted recently on one of the forums, but don't remember which. It's a dolly type little trailer that has either a 5th wheel hitch or bumper ball centered over it's axle. Then you just connect this thing to your TV's receiver ball. It carries all the weight so you're just pulling the weight not carrying it.

[SAD]

There is a way, was just posted recently on one of the forums, but don't remember which. It's a dolly type little trailer that has either a 5th wheel hitch or bumper ball centered over it's axle. Then you just connect this thing to your TV's receiver ball. It carries all the weight so you're just pulling the weight not carrying it.

Sounds like something a buddy of mine would dare me to do after a night of drinking.

[mhs4771]

If you've ever seen the Movie "The Long, Long Trailer" with Ricky and Lucy. That's the setup that was used to pull that long long trailer behind their car. I wish I could remember which forum it was posted on but CRS has set in.

[NMRVer]

Forget max tow capacity .... PAYLOAD, PAYLOAD, PAYLOAD. Between pin weight and passengers and gear you will be overloaded with any 3/4 ton. 1 ton srw minimum but drw recommended. JM2¢, Hank

First thanks, so even though I have rear air bags, I need a 1 ton TV. Don't the 3/4 and 1 ton have the same axles? Please unde(tx)rstand, I'm not arguing, I just what to do what's right.

[NMRVer]

X2

With that GVWR you are looking at minimum 1 ton SRW (newer) otherwise a dually. It can be pulled with a gas engine, but the experance with be a lot better with a diesel as long as you stay away from a Ford 6.0.

Thanks, I have the 6.0 diesel. After having the standard ERG cooler problem, I installed the Bulletproof diesel kit and haven't had problem one now after 2 years. Even pulling the 5er, it got a bad rep because of bad coolant and oil cooler design. Now I love it. Now, towing.. Doesn't the 3/4 and 1 ton SD have to same rear axle? So, by installing rear air bags shouldn't this correct the box weight problem. I've put almost 3 tons of rocks in the bed and after pumping up the air bags, travel level without a problem. Thanks again for the reply, I want to be as safe as possible and since I own my truck, I just want my family safe. (tx)

[rhagfo]

I've got the 324FWBHS also, but I pull it with my 2004 F250 CC 6.0l LB diesel with rear air bags. I haven't had any problems and have pulled it from coast to coast. Maybe I need to rethink this, am I over the GV ratings?? Subscript for safety. :banghead:

Well why do you have the bags, does is sag a lot, may be the same axle, but different springs. Do you know your loaded weight on your rear axle? You can't tow safe if you don't know that number.

First thanks, so even though I have rear air bags, I need a 1 ton TV. Don't the 3/4 and 1 ton have the same axles? Please unde(tx)rstand, I'm not arguing, I just what to do what's right.

We it is true that the basic difference between a 3/4 ton and one ton SRW is springs, and perhaps larger tires, it all has to do again with the reason for the bags, is it to lift a saggy truck or smooth the ride?

I tow over my GVWR, but well under both front and rear GAWR, I don't run bags and don't think I could as any pressure in them at all would raise the nose of the 5er it would put my 5er in a real nose up attitude

Thanks, I have the 6.0 diesel. After having the standard ERG cooler problem, I installed the Bulletproof diesel kit and haven't had problem one now after 2 years. Even pulling the 5er, it got a bad rep because of bad coolant and oil cooler design. Now I love it. Now, towing.. Doesn't the 3/4 and 1 ton SD have to same rear axle? So, by installing rear air bags shouldn't this correct the box weight problem. I've put almost 3 tons of rocks in the bed and after pumping up the air bags, travel level without a problem. Thanks again for the reply, I want to be as safe as possible and since I own my truck, I just want my family safe. (tx)

I guess I don't expect my diesel to come with a standard problem, that cost between $3,000 to $15,000 to fix. That is why I quit Ford after 45 years and got a Cummins.
If you placed 3 tons of rocks in the bed and then pumped up the bags to level is exactly the reason I don't like bags. 6,000# of rock + the about 2,500# of weight on the axle normally comes to 8,500# on tires rated to about 6,830#, that is not safe!
That brings us back to the point of how those air bags affect how much load or over load you have on the rear axle. You really need to weigh to see wher you sit with your GVWR (not the end of the world), and GAWRs this is the end of the world as it is based on tire ratings.

I stated I tow over GVWR, but I tow WELL under GAWR, and don't have a need for them.

So if you weigh and have room to spare on your GAWRs then enjoy, if you don't time to step up.

This is my "overloaded rig" without bags.

http://www.keystoneforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_70843_0_bc2533b933d81dff7b7e4cc88b383621.jpg

[mhs4771]

Here's the solution to anyone pulling over weight:
http://www.automatedsafetyhitch.com/
I still don't know how really safe this is with an undersized TV, but you can check it out for your selves

[Cougarfamily]

Quote "[COLOR="Blue"]I guess I don't expect my diesel to come with a standard problem, that cost between $3,000 to $15,000 to fix. That is why I quit Ford after 45 years and got a Cummins."

That's odd. I had that common problem and it only cost $1,150 for the part and install. Of course, the dealership wanted $5,000 to do it, but I had it done at a shop that sells and installs the Bulletproof line.

I had invested quite a bit more than that fixing our '06 CTD in the 2 years we had it. Sure feels good to be driving Ford Blue again.

[SteveC7010]

Here's the solution to anyone pulling over weight:
http://www.automatedsafetyhitch.com/
I still how really safe this is with an undersized TV, but you can check it out for your selves

Interesting concept!

It sure alters the way you'd look at pin weight and payload numbers. They claim that the thing will handle pin weights up to 6,300# and an optional HD to go to 8,000#. I have problems with their numbers because it still all boils down to a pair of ST tires under the pin. According my tire charts, that would limit the thing to less than 5,000# pin weight, but that is still HUMONGEOUS!!!!

And, having an extra axle with brakes as part of the trailer system would sure make me think differently about the stopping capacity of most any truck or SUV. It'd likely make a good case for the newer 1/4 ton P/U's with big pull ratings but limited payload numbers.

I wonder what the thing costs??

[JRTJH]

Isn't this essentially the same concept that UPS uses in it's piggyback truck system?

[x96mnn]

Isn't this essentially the same concept that UPS uses in it's piggyback truck system?

It looks that way. I contacted them and waiting for a reply on price and wanted to know if it changed max tow rating any. Will post the response.

[Festus2]

Thanks for all the info at least now I know what direction to go in. (tx)

Have you made any decision yet now that you have had plenty of feedback and comments about your original question (What truck should I get for a Copper Canyon?) at the beginning of this thread?

[Back Country]

Well we have been shopping and the wife wants to go with a F250 Diesel because its what is in the budget (Dang budgets :( )but I am trying to work on a deal for a F350 Diesel "bouncey:. I also think reality is setting in on how big this 5er is :banghead:! I took her out and measured out how big it is in the drive. Our three car drive will get small fast! Going from a tent to this will be nice "bouncey:......

[rhagfo]

Well we have been shopping and the wife wants to go with a F250 Diesel because its what is in the budget (Dang budgets but I am trying to work on a deal for a F350 Diesel "bouncey:. I also think reality is setting in on how big this 5er is :banghead:! I took her out and measured out how big it is in the drive. Our three car drive will get small fast! Going from a tent to this will be nice "bouncey:......

That is a big unit, 38'-6" is the book length or measured, my Copper Canyon is listed at 31', measures 33'-6", tows at 11,000#. You either need a one ton SRW, you will be pushing it with a F250.

http://www.keystoneforums.com/attachments/photobucket/img_74033_0_ad18fe3dd903faf909c4e27801387243.jpg

[35mastr]

We have a 2012 Copper Canyon 314FWRLS and It tows fine with my 2004 GMC Duramax 2500HD 4x4 SRW. Went to Pismo Beach 5 hours one way and back just recently and towed great. Mine measures 36 feet 6 inches from rear bumper to front cap.