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Old 01-28-2018, 03:36 PM   #21
chuckster57
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Often times fresh water capacity includes the water heater. I wonder if the brochure has the usual statement “subject to change without notice”. Can’t say I’ve encountered any customer YET that wanted to check actual capacity of the tanks. It would take a while, that’s for sure.
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Old 01-28-2018, 04:30 PM   #22
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PopBeavers,

Chuckster beat me to it, but Keystone's specifications include ALL fresh water, so if it's listed as 60 gallons and you have a 6 gallon water heater, your FW tank is 54 gallons. If you have a 10 gallon water heater, the FW tank will be 50 gallons....

That said, since I've been reading the forum I've never seen any comment posted by anyone who might be a Keystone employee or who identified themselves as a Keystone representative. The factory has never (to my knowledge) monitored the forum, offered any advice or contacted anyone who posted (good or bad) about their comments. If I were forced to make a "best guess" I'd have to say that Keystone RV Company has no interest in what's said here, what's discussed here and "couldn't care how we solve their manufacturing process problelms"..... In other words, I seriously doubt if they even know we exist (other than an occasional email I send them asking for answers to things posed here that I can't answer)......
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Old 01-28-2018, 05:14 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
If I were forced to make a "best guess" I'd have to say that Keystone RV Company has no interest in what's said here, what's discussed here and "couldn't care how we solve their manufacturing process problelms"..... In other words, I seriously doubt if they even know we exist.

I would think that applies to all other RV manufactures also. They are in the business of making money, not making a better product. As long as they can meet the warranty period in a cost effective way, they are good with that.


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Old 01-28-2018, 11:01 PM   #24
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... All 3 were PDI'd by the dealer before I went through with them and did my own PDI.
I think this is an essential point. When you're purchasing an RV, it seems to be "buyer beware" in spades. I don't say that to criticize the industry, I say that because it seems (from a lot of comments I read) that some buyers think RVs are built to the same standard as cars ... They aren't.
Also, RVs in the US are waaaay cheaper than in other countries. I live in Australia, and the TT I will be picking up in June is priced in the low 20s for a 30 foot trailer. Here in Oz, a trailer that size would cost you over 100 grand!
I think I have a pretty good idea of what I'm going to get for my $$$ and how it will stand up to being towed around the country. I saw a comment by a YouTube'er the other day that towing your TT around the country is similar to your house undergoing an earthquake for a few hours at a time. Couple that with how lightly built some trailers are and you gotta know things are gonna break from time to time.
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Old 01-29-2018, 03:24 AM   #25
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All I can say, and hope to able to continue to say, that my dealer must be awesome! He gave me a date to bring it in, I sent pics in of what my issues were, he had repairs approved before my RV every arrived so when he got it he was ready to start the repairs. Finished repairs quickly and correctly so I can't complain on my issues.
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Old 01-29-2018, 08:24 AM   #26
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All I can say, and hope to able to continue to say, that my dealer must be awesome! He gave me a date to bring it in, I sent pics in of what my issues were, he had repairs approved before my RV every arrived so when he got it he was ready to start the repairs. Finished repairs quickly and correctly so I can't complain on my issues.
The dealership I bought our XLite from is the same. All of the warranty repairs were done on the first visit, completed correctly, on time and the trailer was cleaned and secured on their lot until I picked it up. I never felt the need to contact Keystone (the dealer did all of that as he should have) and my only interaction was with his service writer. I showed him the problems when I checked in and he showed me the repairs when I checked out.

If the dealer is doing for the customer what he is supposed to do for the customer, the customer should NEVER have to feel the need to call Keystone or to complain to the manufacturer....

I might add, I bought my Ford in Detroit and we live about 150 miles north of there. All of my service work has been done by the local Ford dealer. He has never suggested that I am a "second in line customer" and he has never told me that I needed to "contact Ford to get it approved". I add this, not to say Ford is different from GM or RAM, but to suggest that this is not the way RV dealers work on "out of dealership" RV's.... Two different manufacturing processes with two different service processes and two different warranty processes....

Overall, my experiences with the dealership we bought from are very similar to yours. Exceptional service from a professional staff.
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Old 01-29-2018, 09:25 AM   #27
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The dealership I bought our XLite from is the same. All of the warranty repairs were done on the first visit, completed correctly, on time and the trailer was cleaned and secured on their lot until I picked it up. I never felt the need to contact Keystone (the dealer did all of that as he should have) and my only interaction was with his service writer. I showed him the problems when I checked in and he showed me the repairs when I checked out.

If the dealer is doing for the customer what he is supposed to do for the customer, the customer should NEVER have to feel the need to call Keystone or to complain to the manufacturer....

I might add, I bought my Ford in Detroit and we live about 150 miles north of there. All of my service work has been done by the local Ford dealer. He has never suggested that I am a "second in line customer" and he has never told me that I needed to "contact Ford to get it approved". I add this, not to say Ford is different from GM or RAM, but to suggest that this is not the way RV dealers work on "out of dealership" RV's.... Two different manufacturing processes with two different service processes and two different warranty processes....

Overall, my experiences with the dealership we bought from are very similar to yours. Exceptional service from a professional staff.

Ditto here. Other than the initial period when the dealership was purchased by CW and the first SM and I were getting on the same page we have had superior results at our CW.
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Old 01-29-2018, 10:36 AM   #28
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I posted last summer about my unit going in for warranty work as the kitchen faucet was dripping ever so slightly because it was not tightened enough it caused the counter to swell a little over the summer. I thought I would have a fight on my hands. The dealer asked me to take pics which they sent to Keystone and they sent the dealer a new counter to install. While the unit was in the shop the dealer noticed that the front cap was delaminating at the top and put the warranty claim in without me even knowing about the issue. When I picked up the unit from the kitchen repair he showed me the delamination issue told me to use it for the rest of the summer and when the new cap arrived he installed it in the fall. So I agree it's not up to Keystone to deal with us it up to the dealers. Ever tried calling one of the big three to have a conversation about your warranty claim they will send you right back to the dealer. I agree though that Auto manufacturers do a much better job of managing their dealers to do warranty work for cars they did not sell. All RV manufacturers need to push their dealers to do the same with RV's.
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Old 01-29-2018, 11:18 AM   #29
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...Auto manufacturers do a much better job of managing their dealers to do warranty work for cars they did not sell. All RV manufacturers need to push their dealers to do the same with RV's.

This is my personal opinion, not anything that I've found documentation to prove/disprove, but the biggest difference is the business relationship between automobile manufacturers and their dealerships (licensed franchisee/company owned business) and RV manufacturers (licensed dealerships/no company owned business). So, with the auto dealerships, there is a "established protocol and lower level approval process" that is not possible with RV dealerships. There is very little/virtually no "local approval procedure" for warranty payment with RV manufacturers. In all automotive dealerships, there are established procedures to deal with almost all warranty claims and only a very few need to be coordinated with the manufacturer. In RV warranty payments, nearly all of them "have to be approved by the factory" before the work starts and in almost all situations, there are no parts on hand to support warranty work other than the most basic parts.

Ever go to a "truck dealer parts department" to get a door handle? You can get it overnight if it's not in stock. With RV parts, you might get it in 2 or 3 weeks, but only if there's any left on the assembly line as spares. Otherwise, you have to wait for Keystone to order one from China (or the distributor) and after it's processed through the factory, they'll forward it to the dealership via truck freight or hold it for the next new trailer that's scheduled for delivery to that dealership.... I don't think the business relationship between factory/dealer will ever change and I don't see any significant changes in the parts availability based on how parts are acquired from the lowest bidder in bulk, competitive quantity based on anticipated needs for the model year run. If the model becomes popular, there won't be any spares available and a substituted part will probably be installed toward the end of the year. Very much different than automotive assembly line parts availability....
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Old 01-29-2018, 04:27 PM   #30
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PopBeavers,

Chuckster beat me to it, but Keystone's specifications include ALL fresh water, so if it's listed as 60 gallons and you have a 6 gallon water heater, your FW tank is 54 gallons. If you have a 10 gallon water heater, the FW tank will be 50 gallons....

That said, since I've been reading the forum I've never seen any comment posted by anyone who might be a Keystone employee or who identified themselves as a Keystone representative. The factory has never (to my knowledge) monitored the forum, offered any advice or contacted anyone who posted (good or bad) about their comments. If I were forced to make a "best guess" I'd have to say that Keystone RV Company has no interest in what's said here, what's discussed here and "couldn't care how we solve their manufacturing process problelms"..... In other words, I seriously doubt if they even know we exist (other than an occasional email I send them asking for answers to things posed here that I can't answer)......
I can't speak for Keystone, but I can tell you that over the years I have had conversations with product managers at Keystone where they referenced things they read on this forum so I do know that in the past there has been at least some attention given to this forum and I can tell you that currently at least one product manager reads this regularly as he mentioned it to me in a meeting late last Fall.
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Old 01-31-2018, 12:46 PM   #31
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One thing that makes it tough to "service" shop - and the same problem in the auto industry is that reviews are of the business as a whole. So a shop with a GREAT sales team, but an absolutely abysmal service department, it's hard to figure that out from the "star system" of reviews. You've got to dive into the details.

And very few people go into the sales side of a business expecting to immediately have to deal with the service side of that same business.
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Old 01-31-2018, 01:59 PM   #32
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That's all I did too was to take some pics and sent them to the service manager. Great people to work with.
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Old 02-14-2018, 09:33 AM   #33
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We have a brand new Keystone Cougar 32RLI, and of course right out of the gate it had issues. The thing folks have to remember is this. It is Not like buying a new car. It's like buying a new home... There are always issues with a new home. I don't care who your builder is.
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Old 02-24-2018, 04:47 AM   #34
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This thread and the many similar posts have been an eye-opener for me (so new to the camping world that I haven’t even taken delivery yet!).
My biggest concern is that I live 2 hours from the nearest dealer, so getting things repaired is a non-trivial event. And our plan is to use the trailer in Maine (where we live) for 2 weeks this June, then base the trailer in AZ or similar in coming years. Meaning I will eventually be having warranty repairs done there, not by my selling dealer.
Oh well, I enjoy learning about and fixing things.


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Old 02-24-2018, 06:39 AM   #35
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I don't know personally if Keystone/Thor folks follow any forums. But I do know personally that other manufacturers follow other forums. I have seen Grand Design factory reps reply to issues on their Facebook page and request the poster to call them personally. That's a nice policy.
I also follow a forum about truck campers and know personally that at least some vendors of aftermarket equipment follow that forum very intently. If you post a question about their product you will get a reply or email very quickly thereafter.
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Old 02-24-2018, 06:47 AM   #36
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.

I assume that Keystone has a quality control department. You would never know it by looking at their website. I have gone on there and asked two questions in the last 4 months.

Do you know how many responses I got . . . . zilch !

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Old 02-24-2018, 07:38 AM   #37
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It may the kind of question asked. I've sent them many emails and have received replies to all of them except one. When I got tired of waiting and called them to speak to the person (I call them as well) that wouldn't reply I found they no longer worked there, explaining that situation.

Quality control? I don't know; maybe they hope for it on the floor to some degree. I think it's build them fast as you can, hope for the best and then damage control as they see fit. It happens with ALL brands. My neighbor campers, who came in with the new Big Horn this year, is fighting another problem on the fancy fiver. Explaining it to me yesterday over breakfast it sounds like the vacuum break on his black tank washer is either broken or backwards........sound familiar??
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Old 02-24-2018, 07:47 AM   #38
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Quality control? I don't know; maybe they hope for it on the floor to some degree. I think it's build them fast as you can, hope for the best and then damage control as they see fit. It happens with ALL brands. My neighbor campers, who came in with the new Big Horn this year, is fighting another problem on the fancy fiver. Explaining it to me yesterday over breakfast it sounds like the vacuum break on his black tank washer is either broken or backwards........sound familiar??
Your correct when you say “ build them, ship them and fix them at the dealer”. Sales are off the charts compared to last year and the factories just can’t keep up. I’m seeing higher end units coming with just as many issues as the entry level ones. Brands that 5 years ago I would love to own, you couldn’t give me one today. I have been told by different factory reps it’s cheaper to pay warranty labor than stop the line.
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Old 02-24-2018, 07:54 AM   #39
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If you go to the Airstream (most expensive travel trailer line in production) and read the comments there, you'll hear the same complaints, same frustrations, same comments about the "factory response" that you read here. It's the same with Jayco, Forest River, Winnebago forums.....

Oh, while you're looking around at forums, check out the GM/Chev diesel forum, the RAM forum and yes, even the Ford diesel forum. You'll hear the same complaints (except for broken cabinet doors), the same comments about "factory response and the same, "They build crap" comments that you read on the RV forums. And for "grins", check out the LG, Samsung, Whirlpool and GE appliance forums...... Yup, same comments, same complaints same questions postulating whether the factory has any Quality Control people and if so, what week do they work because they are never "on the clock" when the poster's product was going down the line....

Reading forums is a "pastime in frustration" if you're looking for "the best of the best".... People who are happy with what they bought (90% of them) are too busy enjoying their "thing" to spend time on the internet looking for problems.

RV'ers on the other hand, during the winter when the trailer is in storage and they can't use it..... Well, enough of them have nothing else to do, except find comfort with other RV'ers who also have nothing else to do, except find others to complain with.....

What was that old saying: Misery loves company...... Hurry up spring, so we can stop complaining about what's wrong and start enjoying what's right with our trailer..............
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Old 02-24-2018, 08:28 AM   #40
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Talking

To further explain my comment above:

Let's look at a common situation with any forum. In 2013 a member posts a thread complaining that his new trailer has 3 cabinet doors with scratches and the sink cold water faucet connection was loose. Two or three people comment they also had a scratched "something" and one complains that he had a loose water heater connection. Then 3 years later, someone "revives the dead thread" with a comment that they have a broken cabinet door and are looking for a replacement. Someone else says they had 3 doors that were broken, so it must be inferior doors. Someone else comments that maybe the leaking plumbing caused the cabinet door to swell and break, so maybe Keystone ought to recall all their trailers since the problem has been going on for at least the last 3 years. (that was in 2016). Now this week, someone is de-winterizing their trailer, a frozen fitting under the sink cracked and is leaking, so they "revive the dead thread" again to add their frustration with the cheap fittings. (nobody remember his post from last fall where he says using RV antifreeze is a waste of time and money) Another member complains that their water heater pressure relief valve is leaking, so it must be that Keystone uses the cheapest components they can find, they're all "junk"..... Someone else asks about whether there's any quality control at all?

We read about 2 or 3 trailers in 2013, two in 2016 and one this week, "extrapolate" a "long history of cabinet problems and cheap appliances and someone makes a comment along the lines of, "This has been going on with Keystone for at least the last 4 or 5 years. They must not care about their customers" so a "novice" with little experience might consider that to be a true and accurate statement because people with experience with Keystone trailers are complaining about it on the "factory forum and nobody from the factory is addressing their concerns with responses".......

Nobody addresses that Keystone produced half a million RV's in the past 5 years and 6 of them had problems, nobody addresses the fact that the factory doesn't respond on this forum, nobody addresses the damage caused by the owner's kid slamming the cabinet door that caused the problem, nobody addresses the fact that the guy with the frozen fitting that cracked had posted the fall before about how he never uses RV antifreeze, only blows out his lines with air and it's always worked for him, no need to spend money on that stuff.

The list goes on and on. But anyway, there, I said it... Maybe we build into anything enough "me too comments" that it seems "everybody is miserable with cheap trailers" when it's actually a very minute percentage of members who actually have any significant problems at all and most of them have been resolved by their dealer when they took the trailer in for service.

If you look at the price of a new truck compared to a truck in 1970, the new one at $70K is about 30 times more expensive than the one in 1970. A trailer today at $30K is about 10 times more expensive than it's 1970 "cousin" that sold for $2999. I'm glad that RV's haven't kept up with the price increases of new trucks, if they did, that $3K 1970 trailer would cost $90K for today's entry level trailer and over $200K for a "luxury model"..... Few of us could afford to RV if they cost that much.
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