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Old 07-19-2018, 07:57 AM   #21
fmitzen
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Use happy camper powder, dissolve in a bucket and pour down the commode.
One scoop when you dump the black tank
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Old 07-19-2018, 08:01 AM   #22
GORDON IRVIN
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You will find out that keystone has 100 percent no NO QUALITY CONTROL
They build them cheep and fast, i would never own a Keystone agin and try calling them for help and all they say is bring it in $$$$$$
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Old 07-19-2018, 08:29 AM   #23
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Sherwolfe, it sounds like your repair was similar to this one that Ray from “Love Your RV” did a few years back.

https://www.loveyourrv.com/rv-waste-...cougar-276rls/
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Old 07-19-2018, 09:42 AM   #24
Randyf7f
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Had the same issue with our '07 Raptor - leaking black tank valve. It was never fun taking off the sewer cap. I started by cutting out a "U" in the underbelly with a drywall knife to gain access (so I could simply fold it closed and secure it when done). To get the right location for the cut-out, I dropped the liner an inch or so on the outside edges to measure to the valve then, from underneath, felt around for a crossmember so as to cut the 'door' where it would be easy to fold closed and secure to the crossmember. While it was very tight, I was able to use wedges here and there between the black tank and the existing structure/plumbing in order to seperate and hold the flanges apart, giving just enough room to get the valve out. Since the seals sit in a recess in both the valve and the flanges, you need some seperation - particularly when installing. It was a bit more trouble sliding the new valve in without dislodging the seals (and I had to drive the wedges tighter), but after a couple of tries putting the seals in first, then the valve - then vice-versa (and I can't recall which ended up working), all ended up in place. I did use some silicone grease to help hold the seals in place. It is nice to now remove the sewer cap with confidence!

One other note: When sourcing a new valve, I wanted only the valve - not the valve with cable (as our cable was fine), I was told by the mfg. that I must order the valve with the cable, as there was no way to attach the existing cable to a "T" pull valve. Figuring there must be a simple way to mate the two, I picked up the (less expensive) "T" valve from the local RV shop, unscrewed the T handle, and the cable from the existing valve attached perfectly.
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Old 07-19-2018, 11:26 AM   #25
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Reading this post was partially why I had looked on youtube about composting toilets, which led to my post about schematics. I think if it happens to me I would seriously look into installing a composting toilet. No more flushing, no more sewage. If possible I could try to turn the black tank into an added Grey tank. I dread the thought of pulling that liner down and hacking away at insulation / foam.
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Old 07-19-2018, 01:03 PM   #26
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Sherwolfe, it sounds like your repair was similar to this one that Ray from “Love Your RV” did a few years back.

https://www.loveyourrv.com/rv-waste-...cougar-276rls/
ITAT, Well it sure does seem to be almost identical. Apparently he and I had the same idea to correct the issue.
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Old 07-19-2018, 06:16 PM   #27
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Another common problem are tanks that aren’t dumped right away. Water is 8 pounds per gallon imagine all that water and stuff sloshing around and yanking on your plumbing. I bought a used keystone and it had a crack under the dump pipe. fortunately I was able to repair it and support the plumbing with plumbing strap. I know these things don’t come to mind to most but when your black tank starts to leak that’s frequently the culprit.. Dump ASAP
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Old 07-19-2018, 07:27 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by GORDON IRVIN View Post
You will find out that keystone has 100 percent no NO QUALITY CONTROL
They build them cheep and fast, i would never own a Keystone agin and try calling them for help and all they say is bring it in $$$$$$
Please!!!
When you find the rv that's built any differently or with better quality control please post the make, model, floor plan on this forum so that the rest of us can get in line for one as well.
Thor is the parent company (85%+ of all rvs) of Keystone & you'd be hard pressed to name a rv that's not part of that group.
So here's wishing good luck for you (& us if you find a good'un) in your search for the perfect rv!
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Old 07-20-2018, 04:59 AM   #29
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My TT is not a Keystone or even a Thor Industries make, but you’re comment about quality across the entire industry is probably correct. Factory support after the sale is vey important as is a a good local dealer or RV repair shop in the event you have a problem you can’t fix yourself. Of course, RV forums like this one are helpful, too!

There are several RV parent company manufacturers out there besides Thor. Forest River makes mine. I think Grand Design is independent?

BTW, I’m here on the Keystone Forum because we are considering a Keystone Cougar 5er as our next camper. You read about many of the same problems on the Forest River Forum although there are also many, many posts about good factory support there.
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Old 07-23-2018, 10:52 AM   #30
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Yep, been there. Had to change out a valve due to a bad cable. Ended up cutting the pipe to allow me to move it so that I could get the flanges far enough apart to remove the valve. While I would rather not have done it, I wasn't too worried about cutting the pipe and using the rubber sleeve. The cut was downstream of the valves, so all it should see is static pressure only when a tank is being drained and I could actually live with a small drip then.
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Old 07-24-2018, 10:13 AM   #31
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Great thread!

Thought I'd add my two cents since I eventually found a bit of additional info including some waste-tank history. I apologize for the length but I wanted to be thorough.

Our former 2004 Cougar 29RLS mostly gave us great service because we loved the floor-plan and we felt it was fairly well designed. But there were some things that could definitely have been improved... and the waste tank system was one. Our black tank developed a nasty leak after one of the older kids got hurt, and we left a camp in a hurry without dumping first. It leaked into the heated underbelly (ick) which fortunately consisted of screw-on panels. There was a 3" crack on the bottom near the outlet.

Ack. My first desperate thought was to find out how to repair plastic. Our dealer suggested a local plastic repair facility. I stopped by and the facility insisted they could repair any plastic, good words to hear. The gentleman said the tanks were most likely made of ABS which is easy to repair. The kind fellow also pointed out another insight that made a lot of sense.

When these black ABS tanks are manufactured, they are made in two tub halves, top and bottom, which are then mated later. The blow mold operator is supposed to lay the hot sheet between the single set of heated forms and partially blow it into the tub shape we are familiar with. The proper procedure is to partially inflate at first, release the pressure, then re-inflate the tank the second time to full shape. The reasoning is that the form will stretch the sheet material more evenly when this is followed.

But as usual, getting in a hurry, poorly trained operators tend to try to blow the tank in one fell swoop. It seems to work for them and is quicker, but they don't realize the big picture. This causes the material near the bottom to be way over-stretched. The material is then much thinner on the bottom than sides. This unknowing error is especially bad, as the very worst stretch is that around the extra bulge to which the outlet must attach. It becomes very thin and weak. Training: I have a philosophy about this sort of thing.

Poor training is poor management and that is likely where the fault lies... with management not relaying the big picture as usual. For those of you in management, let me hasten to add, the buck always stops there. Employees average out and can be considered all the same, company-to-company, during hiring. But a great company ideally has great management... and they take a team approach rather than adversarial, us vs. them. They like and respect their employees, treat them with honesty and expect the same back. Under good leadership, most well trained employees rise to the occasion and the incorrigibles are weeded out. This simple principle of courtesy can not be overemphasized. Product value only rises with teamwork, the company continues to do well and everybody wins, including the customer. And we earthlings are all customers of one another.

Greatly impressed by the local repair facility, I made a joyous deal to bring it over the next day. My tank was cracked right under the "weak" outlet attachment point, probably from bouncing while full. Sure, the tank is well supported around the thick perimeter where it has been mated. The un-stretched plastic is full doubled-up thickness here. Nearby, away from the tank, the gate valves were also very well attached. So the crack would have been the flex point to the secure dump pipe as the entire bottom bellowed out with each bump I hit. No wonder it broke.

Unfortunately there was a great misunderstanding on my part. I brought the camper. The appalled repair facility expected the pre-cleaned, removed tank. Embarrassed and disappointed, I went home to ponder the next move.

The prospect of removing the tank seemed a major operation to me. I'm not sure the vent pipe or toilet is not somehow attached to the tank or difficult to re-assemble. OTOH, there is a possibility that both up-pipes are merely inserted into holes cut in the top of the tank and the tank may drop right out after removing cross braces and unbolting it and slip right back in later. Still, I thought I'd try an in-place repair first.

After a web search, it turns out that the reason ABS is so easy to repair is that the "glue" that melts and welds black sewer pipe also melts and welds any other ABS plastic. And it comes in three viscosities... thin, medium and thick. The glue difference is how much ABS plastic is dissolved in the mix. One can make thick glue by adding enough ABS shavings to thin glue. Or as I did, I found all three mixes at Menards and maybe other hardware stores also carry this convenient selection. I bought the thick stuff since I would be working overhead under my camper.

Remember I said it was fortunate that my camper belly was made of removable black panels. Staying more-or-less out of the way, I fully unscrewed two of them and partially another. I flushed icky particles from them with laundry soap, a push broom and a hose right in my driveway and moved them safely out of the Dakota wind to dry. I rinsed residue off the black tank bottom and remaining panels too, then let them dry until the next day.

Considering the original tank material was probably over-stretched, I added several layers of fiberglass reinforcement to strengthen the area. I used thin fiberglass tape that is designed for gypsum wallboard seams, since I had some left over, but any fibrous patch material will do if it can be saturated easily. Even embedded cotton cloth would be better than nothing. The glue has very limited tensile strength alone, probably no better than the overly thin tank area itself. The porous tape I used also allowed me to gob more on without dripping (as much) and it does dry somewhat as you are using it, allowing a layering method. I confess I liked the smell of the glue better than sewer smell.

The next day, after the repair was dry, I began to add ordinary additional galvanized plumbing strapping to support both the repair area and across general waste tank bellies. I formed a 'Y' section to cradle both the outlets (black & gray) and padded all straps with surplus seat belt webbing. That is when I noticed the 3/4 inch angle iron that supported the panels was also cutting into my tank bottoms, since one angle edge was aimed up and barely cleared. I imagine the cutting was from the bellowing during bouncing when the tanks were near full. It looked like it was almost half through already. Next I fixed that, I think.

To fix the vertical angle iron edges, I added lengths of 1/2 inch plastic water supply pipe slid over the edge. I split the pieces of pipe and let them naturally clamp over the iron angle edge, rounding it out. Then I also split some automotive rubber heater hose and let that grip over the top of the plastic supply pipe to cushion any plastic-to-plastic (tank-to-pipe) contact. All appeared it would stay in place on it's own. The assembly already touched the tank bottoms now. My hope was that that would be more than sufficient.

I never had any more trouble with the tanks and I hope the dealer (with which I traded) sold the next guy an improved, more endurable product because of my efforts. Our Keystone 29RLS Cougar travel trailer was in good shape and sold within a week.

Wes
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Old 07-24-2018, 12:58 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itat View Post
My TT is not a Keystone or even a Thor Industries make, but you’re comment about quality across the entire industry is probably correct. Factory support after the sale is vey important as is a a good local dealer or RV repair shop in the event you have a problem you can’t fix yourself. Of course, RV forums like this one are helpful, too!

There are several RV parent company manufacturers out there besides Thor. Forest River makes mine. I think Grand Design is independent?

BTW, I’m here on the Keystone Forum because we are considering a Keystone Cougar 5er as our next camper. You read about many of the same problems on the Forest River Forum although there are also many, many posts about good factory support there.
Not to get off topic, but Grand Design was sold to Winnebago about 2+/- years ago, so no longer independent & Thor has recently acquired Jayco.
So not many, if any, independents left.
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Old 07-03-2019, 09:14 AM   #33
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Normally you'd just remove the 4 bolts & pull the gate portion of the sandwich valve out & replace it without cutting any piping. It's still some times very snug, but still easier than cutting piping.
That would be awesome if that actually worked! I have been struggling for two days on this exact issue. I cannot gain enough room between the flanges (short about 3/16" to 1/4", about the height of the lip on one of the flanges) and built myself a pry tool to pry one side while crowbarring the other side. Finally broke down and called a mobile rv repair, waiting for him to show up.
They seriously need some kind of easily replaceable flexible coupling in there, I would rather replace that every year than deal with this every 10 years!!!

*EDIT* BTW, there is not enough piping for me to cut out a 1" section (or 1/2" for that matter) to put a rubber connection in there! The pieces they used to mate the fittings together were barely long enough for the mating surfaces.
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Old 08-04-2020, 05:57 AM   #34
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2014 Fuzion 371 Dump Valve Replacement

Hoping I can save some others the struggles i faced. See the picture of the final product. The view is from the front of the rig looking back.
  • The two front tanks (one black; one grey) are piped together without room to remove and reinstall new valve or gaskets. (If you do get them in, the gaskets will likely crimp and leak)
  • Flush both tanks REALLY well and fully drain them.
  • Remove the belly cover and fold out of the way.
  • Cut the 3" pipe in the two locations where you see my rubber couplings in the picture.
  • Install the driver's side (grey valve) first with the one rubber coupling in place. You'll have enough "play" to get everything in)
  • Be sure to put rubber gaskets onto existing flanges first and then slide the valve in place making sure not to dislodge the gaskets.
  • Now install the black tank valve with the 3" rubber coupling in place but slid out of the way so you have full freedom to move the pipe mating to the valve.
  • Once installed, ensure the 3" rubber couplings are properly straddling the cuts you've made in the pipe.
  • Tighten everything up.
  • Test for leaks.
  • You should be able to complete this in 2-3 hours instead of the 2-3 days it took me.

Good luck!
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Old 08-05-2020, 09:03 AM   #35
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Hoping I can save some others the struggles i faced. See the picture of the final product. The view is from the front of the rig looking back.
  • Cut the 3" pipe in the two locations where you see my rubber couplings in the picture.

Good luck!
Just me personally, I'd try to only cut the 1.5" - 2" section where the rubber coupling is on the right side and then disconnect both valves on the left of that (from your pic perspective.) That way, you'd only have one rubber coupling (just one coupling for possible/probable future leak) but this is just my opinion and wish I had seen this before trying to 'man-handle' mine out of the rigid section! I had to patch my tank at the outlet due to the stress of tweaking/twisting to get the valve out. And it's started leaking again, so I'm going to have to replace my black tank!
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Old 08-05-2020, 12:11 PM   #36
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Just me personally, I'd try to only cut the 1.5" - 2" section where the rubber coupling is on the right side and then disconnect both valves on the left of that (from your pic perspective.) That way, you'd only have one rubber coupling (just one coupling for possible/probable future leak) but this is just my opinion and wish I had seen this before trying to 'man-handle' mine out of the rigid section! I had to patch my tank at the outlet due to the stress of tweaking/twisting to get the valve out. And it's started leaking again, so I'm going to have to replace my black tank!
Can't argue with your logic. That may be the way to go. I sort of "backed into" needing two cuts. I was able to get the passenger side (black tank) valve completed without any cuts, and once it was done, I didn't want to tempt fate. It's POSSIBLE that one cut will do it, but I'm not sure. We'll have to just wait for the next poor sucker to give it a try
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Old 08-05-2020, 01:11 PM   #37
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IrishPatNJ & terrypen; This info would be more useful if you put your RV year, make and model in your signature and perhaps the same for your tow vehicle. I bet my forward gray and black tank configuration look nothing like yours; mine is under a 2002 Cougar 278EFS and I have a galley tank running the length of the fifth wheel up to join into the forward gray & black tanks.
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Old 08-05-2020, 06:04 PM   #38
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Thank you

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IrishPatNJ & terrypen; This info would be more useful if you put your RV year, make and model in your signature and perhaps the same for your tow vehicle. I bet my forward gray and black tank configuration look nothing like yours; mine is under a 2002 Cougar 278EFS and I have a galley tank running the length of the fifth wheel up to join into the forward gray & black tanks.
Appreciate the constructive comment. As you can see, I'm new to this forum. I included the info you suggested in the subject line of my initial post thinking that would help others. If that's not the convention here, I'll certainly poke around and try to find the signature feature. Thanks for your kind welcome.
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Old 08-05-2020, 08:11 PM   #39
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User CP (left on upper black bar on each page) -> below SETTINGS & OPTIONS tab is EDIT SIGNATURE
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Old 08-13-2020, 02:42 PM   #40
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User CP (left on upper black bar on each page) -> below SETTINGS & OPTIONS tab is EDIT SIGNATURE
I think I've got it. How's it look? I hope it's there...
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