Another China Bomb Story

[sopranos27]

Tires looked to be made in 2011 so yeah... I'd say they are the originals and should have been replaced when I bought this camper. Lesson learned the hard way.

[Desert185]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

If you consider the aging of the polyester cording I think you'll answer your question. "Larger size polyester" is used in ST tires to give them the extra load capacity over LT tires. The polyester weakens as it ages. Estimates are 10% per year. So, tires size 235 80R16 LRE are rated at 3520 pounds at 80PSI. The 326SRX and 326SRXWE don't weigh the same, so taking the heavier of the two, the 326SRX at 9745 with a payload of 2915 and a pin weight (empty) of 2260 (23% of 9745), if we calculate the GVW pin weight the same 23%, that would be 12560x.23=2889. So 12560-2889=9671 (on the axles) divided by 4 tires would mean 2418 on each tire at GVW.

With 3520 rated capacity and 2418 actual weight, that's 1102 reserve per tire. That's roughly 31% reserve capacity on "new" tires. Given the 10% aging degredation of the polyester cording, at the end of 3 years the tires would be carrying roughly their "maximum aged rating". So, just for grins, at 6 years (60% reduction) the tires would have a capacity of 3520x.40=1408 pounds each. That's 5632 max tire capacity with 9671 on the axles.

Maxxis may have a limited warranty against some loss, but from the 10% age reduction, I'd be concerned at the end of the 3rd year from the date of manufacture.

Plus, to "add insult to injury", this is included in the Maxxis warranty CW posted: "(C) Loss of time, inconvenience, loss of use of the trailer, costs of towing or transportation, and/or incidental or consequential damages of any type or nature. Vehicle or trailer damage is not covered."

The two paragraphs above this one are filled with "outs" for the tire company to use to avoid payment for damages. While Maxxis is an "outstanding company" with a superb reputation, who knows what their financial status and policy toward paying for trailer damage will be "if the worst happens in 6 years"...

Just doing the math and knowing the weights we carry, I'd start worrying about tire safety and reliability about the 3 year mark when the tires are "age rated" at the trailer's GVW. I don't think I'd trust 6 years with any brand ST tire in the LRE category.

John:

I knew the answer before I asked the question. I just wanted to hear CW's response/recommendation...and still do.

Sorry you responded in such a thoroughly accurate manner, but I'm sure someone will benefit from your detailed posting on this subject as I already have in the past since joining this forum.

The Maxxis 235/80R16 LRE tire loading is 3420#, BTW. 100# less than the same tire in a Carlisle, which didn't concern me at the time of purchase because of the good history of the tire and the axle loading of the 326SRX. With current knowledge of the Carlisle HD's, along with the price point compared to the Maxxis, the Carlisle HD will be my next tire at year four in the spring of 2018.

One could also argue than the 326 is lighter than the 325 because of the dinette and extra wall enclosing it in the 325. My advertised 326 EW is 9300# and change with a GW of 12,600# on 5,200# axles. I like the 6,000# axle upgrade Bobby posted.

One of these days, I'll weigh the trailer when I'm in the mood to handle the truth.

[gary31]

After reading many post about the China bombs, I happened to notice my Trailer King tire starting to have a slight crack along the tread line. I just could not with pull that trailer any longer until I had new tires. The Original tires lasted about 2.5 yrs but were probably 3 yrs old at least and I got about 4k miles. Replaced them with a Goodyear Endurance tire. I will see if they hold up any better over the next year..s hopfully. The installer said I would have probably had a blow out in a very short time.

[CWtheMan]

You know, I’ve been doing the trailer tire thing (all designs) for quite some time.

Tire aging is a controversial subject that no tire manufacturer or the governing body will fully address. Some of the ST tire manufacturers have ventured into some sort of descriptions for tire degrading. Carlisle being a leader of that subject for a number of years. They no longer include that sort of information in their public documents. Is it because they have developed newer and better materials for their newer brands of ST tires? The leading degrading factor is heat. Have the ST manufacturers developed tire building materials to support the new increased allowable speeds the newer brands are touting on their sidewalls? Are the compounds and additives better now than just a few short years ago? Without having insider information we just don’t know any more than a tire manufacturer wants to say about their tires. The unsaid things are confidential, so it only behooves the tire builders to tell us the good things, the others will come with brand experience.

One of the places to look for a hint about a manufacturer’s answer to tire aging is the length of their warranty. I look at it as their “best guess”. They have no idea how a consumer is going to maintain their tires, or in what environment they will be operated in, on average.

You can’t look at a tire and call it a piece of crap. You can’t judge a tire by it’s weight without knowing it’s complete makeup. You can’t call a tire a piece of crap because it failed early unless you have solid evidence that supports that call.

With a reasonable amount of leftovers a tire expert can almost always tell what caused a tire failure. It’s sort of like a building that has burned all the way to the ground. The fire expert will came up with the cause.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by gary31

After reading many post about the China bombs, I happened to notice my Trailer King tire starting to have a slight crack along the tread line. I just could not with pull that trailer any longer until I had new tires. The Original tires lasted about 2.5 yrs but were probably 3 yrs old at least and I got about 4k miles. Replaced them with a Goodyear Endurance tire. I will see if they hold up any better over the next year..s hopfully. The installer said I would have probably had a blow out in a very short time.

You did the right thing and probably just in time. If I had looked closer I imagine my tires would have looked just like that. When it disintegrated it looked like the tread literally peeled off the carcass right at the tread line on the side. Came right off leaving me what looked like an inflated inner tube.

[Desert185]

Originally Posted by CWtheMan

You know, I’ve been doing the trailer tire thing (all designs) for quite some time.

Tire aging is a controversial subject that no tire manufacturer or the governing body will fully address. Some of the ST tire manufacturers have ventured into some sort of descriptions for tire degrading. Carlisle being a leader of that subject for a number of years. They no longer include that sort of information in their public documents. Is it because they have developed newer and better materials for their newer brands of ST tires? The leading degrading factor is heat. Have the ST manufacturers developed tire building materials to support the new increased allowable speeds the newer brands are touting on their sidewalls? Are the compounds and additives better now than just a few short years ago? Without having insider information we just don’t know any more than a tire manufacturer wants to say about their tires. The unsaid things are confidential, so it only behooves the tire builders to tell us the good things, the others will come with brand experience.

One of the places to look for a hint about a manufacturer’s answer to tire aging is the length of their warranty. I look at it as their “best guess”. They have no idea how a consumer is going to maintain their tires, or in what environment they will be operated in, on average.

You can’t look at a tire and call it a piece of crap. You can’t judge a tire by it’s weight without knowing it’s complete makeup. You can’t call a tire a piece of crap because it failed early unless you have solid evidence that supports that call.

With a reasonable amount of leftovers a tire expert can almost always tell what caused a tire failure. It’s sort of like a building that has burned all the way to the ground. The fire expert will came up with the cause.

You know, I'd rather limit my exposure to the forensic process that explains tire failure, the grief, the down time, the expense to repair the trailer, etc. by not buying brands to be known China bombs.

I'm sticking to Carlisle or Maxxis. If I see Tow Max or Trailer King on the sidewall...its a piece of crap.

[Dave W]

There is more then enough history on Tow Max, Marathon and similar 75 buck tires made in China that regardless of how good the materials are, that if they aren't put together correctly, they are junk. The nicknames - Blow Max and China Bomb have been earned by many folks bad experiences. Carlisle have had more then their of problems that I'm leery. Maxxis seem to have worked well for most while the new Goodyear Endurance has no real track record yet. Sailun - many like that tire but many wheels on 5200/6000 pound, 6 lug axles wont carry the rated 110psig though will probably be within weight capacity range at 80 or thereabouts. So what does this mean - to me, at least? This means that I'll use a good brand LT. The premier LT tires are Michelin and Bridgestone which are also rated for trailer but many 16" have a max sidewall rating of 3042.
This from my reviews is conservative since there is a pretty large safety factor that I've seen as high as 40% which I don't necessarily trust but for sure, those LTs have a 20-25% margin. ST tires - no safety margin that I've been able to determine. Some say that the ST tire are built to deflect on sharp backing turns. Hogwash!! How many sharp backing turns do you really make on pavement. Most CGs have gravel or dirt roads so why do these flimsy tires need to squirm and force those tread plies and strands into failure. My RVs LTs maintain their shape, exactly like the tires on my truck plus are rated for speeds other then the China Bombs 65mph (106 mph - not that I'll tow anywhere near that speed). There has been so much controversy about ST tires posted on every RV forum that anything said here is redundant. If you choose to run the current crop of China Bombs - do it but there have been too many failures other then low pressure/heat or road hazardvdamage, IMHO, to ignore - at least by me.

[Outback 325BH]

Originally Posted by Dave W

There is more then enough history on Tow Max, Marathon and similar 75 buck tires made in China that regardless of how good the materials are, that if they aren't put together correctly, they are junk. The nicknames - Blow Max and China Bomb have been earned by many folks bad experiences. Carlisle have had more then their of problems that I'm leery. Maxxis seem to have worked well for most while the new Goodyear Endurance has no real track record yet. Sailun - many like that tire but many wheels on 5200/6000 pound, 6 lug axles wont carry the rated 110psig though will probably be within weight capacity range at 80 or thereabouts. So what does this mean - to me, at least? This means that I'll use a good brand LT. The premier LT tires are Michelin and Bridgestone which are also rated for trailer but many 16" have a max sidewall rating of 3042.

This from my reviews is conservative since there is a pretty large safety factor that I've seen as high as 40% which I don't necessarily trust but for sure, those LTs have a 20-25% margin. ST tires - no safety margin that I've been able to determine. Some say that the ST tire are built to deflect on sharp backing turns. Hogwash!! How many sharp backing turns do you really make on pavement. Most CGs have gravel or dirt roads so why do these flimsy tires need to squirm and force those tread plies and strands into failure. My RVs LTs maintain their shape, exactly like the tires on my truck plus are rated for speeds other then the China Bombs 65mph (106 mph - not that I'll tow anywhere near that speed). There has been so much controversy about ST tires posted on every RV forum that anything said here is redundant. If you choose to run the current crop of China Bombs - do it but there have been too many failures other then low pressure/heat or road hazardvdamage, IMHO, to ignore - at least by me.

Your post is spot on. I'll never understand the defenders of these China bombs -- including the cw guy...


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[CaptnJohn]

Originally Posted by Desert185

John:

I knew the answer before I asked the question. I just wanted to hear CW's response/recommendation...and still do.

Sorry you responded in such a thoroughly accurate manner, but I'm sure someone will benefit from your detailed posting on this subject as I already have in the past since joining this forum.

The Maxxis 235/80R16 LRE tire loading is 3420#, BTW. 100# less than the same tire in a Carlisle, which didn't concern me at the time of purchase because of the good history of the tire and the axle loading of the 326SRX. With current knowledge of the Carlisle HD's, along with the price point compared to the Maxxis, the Carlisle HD will be my next tire at year four in the spring of 2018.

One could also argue than the 326 is lighter than the 325 because of the dinette and extra wall enclosing it in the 325. My advertised 326 EW is 9300# and change with a GW of 12,600# on 5,200# axles. I like the 6,000# axle upgrade Bobby posted.

One of these days, I'll weigh the trailer when I'm in the mood to handle the truth.

My Cougar came with LR E Trailer King tires at 80#. I changed to Carlisle LR F. The wheels were rated at 80# according to the manufacturer and the tires max was 95#. I ran them at 90# and was extremely happy. Happier still my Montana wheels are rated at 110# and my Sailuns are overkill at 440# per tire.
Doubtful any ST tires of quality are still rated at 65.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by Dave W

There is more then enough history on Tow Max, Marathon and similar 75 buck tires made in China that regardless of how good the materials are, that if they aren't put together correctly, they are junk. The nicknames - Blow Max and China Bomb have been earned by many folks bad experiences. Carlisle have had more then their of problems that I'm leery. Maxxis seem to have worked well for most while the new Goodyear Endurance has no real track record yet. Sailun - many like that tire but many wheels on 5200/6000 pound, 6 lug axles wont carry the rated 110psig though will probably be within weight capacity range at 80 or thereabouts. So what does this mean - to me, at least? This means that I'll use a good brand LT. The premier LT tires are Michelin and Bridgestone which are also rated for trailer but many 16" have a max sidewall rating of 3042.
This from my reviews is conservative since there is a pretty large safety factor that I've seen as high as 40% which I don't necessarily trust but for sure, those LTs have a 20-25% margin. ST tires - no safety margin that I've been able to determine. Some say that the ST tire are built to deflect on sharp backing turns. Hogwash!! How many sharp backing turns do you really make on pavement. Most CGs have gravel or dirt roads so why do these flimsy tires need to squirm and force those tread plies and strands into failure. My RVs LTs maintain their shape, exactly like the tires on my truck plus are rated for speeds other then the China Bombs 65mph (106 mph - not that I'll tow anywhere near that speed). There has been so much controversy about ST tires posted on every RV forum that anything said here is redundant. If you choose to run the current crop of China Bombs - do it but there have been too many failures other then low pressure/heat or road hazardvdamage, IMHO, to ignore - at least by me.

You know, I don't really know how to respond to this. I am assuming you know far more than the tire manufacturers and therefore are on the leading edge of technology in the respect of tires, towing ability, strength, build quality, tire construction and components used in same. I suspect that isn't correct....the above is just a person's opinion about "stuff"...therefore, it's kind of like "a Duramax is the biggest, baddest diesel out there".....well, not really, that's your take........... LTs have their place, but in reality, and based on every tire manufacturers guidelines, they really aren't meant for heavy trailer towing....based on everything I've read. They are "light truck" tires, not "trailer" tires...JMOP, YMMV.

[CaptnJohn]

Originally Posted by sourdough

You know, I don't really know how to respond to this. I am assuming you know far more than the tire manufacturers and therefore are on the leading edge of technology in the respect of tires, towing ability, strength, build quality, tire construction and components used in same. I suspect that isn't correct....the above is just a person's opinion about "stuff"...therefore, it's kind of like "a Duramax is the biggest, baddest diesel out there".....well, not really, that's your take........... LTs have their place, but in reality, and based on every tire manufacturers guidelines, they really aren't meant for heavy trailer towing....based on everything I've read. They are "light truck" tires, not "trailer" tires...JMOP, YMMV.

Surely he has a PHD in tire engineering.


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[CWtheMan]

Every now and then I have to reiterate where my posts are often coming from. I don’t support any specific tire design. I’ve said many times that all tires with a DOT highway certification on their sidewalls are appropriate for service on RV trailer axles, IF, they are fitted as Original Equipment by the vehicle manufacturer of that specific vehicle.

I might, when the post is about a specific tire brand, mention their name or use a reference about a brand. I do not tout any brand.

Those that often misunderstand the drift of my posts do not understand that I’m posting what is supposed to happen. I don’t do what ifs without identifying it as hypothetical.

A high percentage of tire posters are not familiar with many aspects of their tire maintenance requirements and the difference between automotive and RV trailer tire fitments.

RV trailer owners often feel stranded when it becomes tire replacement time. The tire industry standards for RV trailer tire replacements is the same as for automotive tires with one major difference, there is no retailer replacement charts to go by. NHTSA has made it mandatory for a notation about replacement tires be placed in the vehicle owner’s manual. In it’s most basic language, says to seek recommendations for replacements from the vehicle manufacturer. When owner’s ask the manufacturer they most often get a “canned” answer, “ use replacements just like the ones that came on the vehicle”.

I’m not very receptive to posts about “China Bombs” without documentation of a cause. I go to a lot of RV shows and seminars. The percentage of overloaded RV trailers is quite high. Add in a tire or two that are also under inflated and the possibility of catastrophic tire failures rise dramatically.

IMO there is no way to compare success of one design over another design. All are used but the percentage of ST tires used as OEM far exceed all others by millions. Most replacement success stories are written about replacement tires that provide more load capacity reserves than the OE tires, DAH!

In the past 15 years I’ve belonged to at least a dozen forums that regularly post about RV trailer tires. I use a half dozen user names. There have been numerous times during that period of time where brands have gone from the good to bad list and back on the good list again. The tires used prolifically as OEM always get on the bad list sooner or later. Vehicle manufacturers will just not stick to a tire that provides anything more than adequate load capacity reserves. On the other hand, owners will just not stick to recommended servicing procedures and stay within the load limits of their trailer’s GAWR. Do you know that, on average, a loss of 1 PSI of inflation pressure below cold recommended inflation equals, a 1.7% loss of load capacity.

NHTSA uses few words to get a point across. Every word means something. So, I often look for or specifically ask about interpretations. This one is about tire industry standards.

"Industry standards generally form the basis for demonstrating product safety and quality before courts, regulators, retailers, consumers and others."

[Eastham]

Looks like a racing slick.

[Tinner12002]

Originally Posted by Dave W

There is more then enough history on Tow Max, Marathon and similar 75 buck tires made in China that regardless of how good the materials are, that if they aren't put together correctly, they are junk. The nicknames - Blow Max and China Bomb have been earned by many folks bad experiences. Carlisle have had more then their of problems that I'm leery. Maxxis seem to have worked well for most while the new Goodyear Endurance has no real track record yet. Sailun - many like that tire but many wheels on 5200/6000 pound, 6 lug axles wont carry the rated 110psig though will probably be within weight capacity range at 80 or thereabouts. So what does this mean - to me, at least? This means that I'll use a good brand LT. The premier LT tires are Michelin and Bridgestone which are also rated for trailer but many 16" have a max sidewall rating of 3042.
This from my reviews is conservative since there is a pretty large safety factor that I've seen as high as 40% which I don't necessarily trust but for sure, those LTs have a 20-25% margin. ST tires - no safety margin that I've been able to determine. Some say that the ST tire are built to deflect on sharp backing turns. Hogwash!! How many sharp backing turns do you really make on pavement. Most CGs have gravel or dirt roads so why do these flimsy tires need to squirm and force those tread plies and strands into failure. My RVs LTs maintain their shape, exactly like the tires on my truck plus are rated for speeds other then the China Bombs 65mph (106 mph - not that I'll tow anywhere near that speed). There has been so much controversy about ST tires posted on every RV forum that anything said here is redundant. If you choose to run the current crop of China Bombs - do it but there have been too many failures other then low pressure/heat or road hazardvdamage, IMHO, to ignore - at least by me.

To each is own...you run what you want and I'll run what I want! No LTs on my RV!

[Dave W]

To those that just need to take a shot at my postnever bothered to read my qualifiers "So what does this mean - to me, at least? This means that I'll use a good brand LT" plus "If you choose to run the current crop of China Bombs - do it but there have been too many failures other then low pressure/heat or road hazard damage, IMHO, to ignore - at least by me."tell you anything?

That is only my opinion. I will never, on a dang thing pertaining to RVs including tires, say that is the absolute way it's supposed to be. Anything I might say is opinion but based on my many years trailering experience and observations


Enjoy

[the sodfather]

Good grief...here we go again...

[CWtheMan]

Original Equipment Tires:

All vehicle manufacturers have the sole responsibility for the selection and fitment of OE tires. That responsibility is not transferred to an owner that wants to use another size or design as replacements for those OE tires. Unless, The vehicle manufacturer has recommended such fitments as options for that vehicle. (Read the vehicle owner’s manual).

When an individual decides to drive a vehicle 60 MPH in a clearly marked 55 MPH speed zone they violate a law or regulation. They are solely responsible for that action. Same holds true for using replacement tires that do not meet tire industry standards for such fitments.

That’s not a statement in support of anything other than tire industry standards and regulations.

[sourdough]

I think CW has touched on some points that probably explain a lot about the China bomb issues.

First, they are what is on most new trailers. Secondly, if they are like my trailer, they are so close to being overloaded from the factory that it's not funny (gvw - 10,000; tires - 2540 ea.). Even subtracting the tongue weight I had very little reserve capacity IMO. I religiously watched my weights and pressure but there is absolutely no way to keep everything "perfect" when you are that close to the max of the tire. If you take into account there are lots of folks that don't watch their tires that closely, or the weights, I think therein lies the issue of so many "china bomb" failures, which would be natural since that is what comes on most of the trailers. We've been driving all around northern NM and southern CO for the last few weeks; it's amazing how many RVs are going down the road with the tires bulging way out due to underinflation.

Given these considerations it is easy to understand when someone like Dave W asserts that they will never have a Chinese tire. It looks like they ARE junk. I upgraded to a heavier tire and went up a load range. My trailer tows better and I feel better. It should have came that way, and so should a lot of other trailers. What I've learned, at a substantial cost, is that I will look at the tires and their specs before driving off the lot with a new trailer. I will upgrade on the spot if required before I take possession. I don't think, or know, that going to an LT is the answer given the above but I do understand the logic behind that choice.

[dcg9381]

Originally Posted by CWtheMan

I’m not very receptive to posts about “China Bombs” without documentation of a cause. I go to a lot of RV shows and seminars.

I don't like it when posters make comments about having a PhD in tires. That sort of thing isn't helpful.

And I'm with you on the idea we use documentation around actual failures / failure rates before name calling tires.

However, what I see (anecdotally) going on is a lot of tires, manufactured in China, being "branded" in a manner that makes complaining about them effectively and as such providing accurate data darn near impossible.

I don't recall the most recent brand (Lion-something) -but they just started getting imported by an LLC out of Goshen. Gee, what could be in Goshen that might interest someone selling tires? When I looked up complaints on that brand, there wasn't even a drop down for the new "name" on the tire.

Lots of this stuff comes in with a new "name" on it. Manufactured in the same place, same design, just a new logo. That does exactly what it's meant to do.

For the tire PhDs, if I import a tire that gets a DOT certification, can I rebrand that tire as something else and keep my DOT cert? If so, I could just change my name every time I started to build a reputation.


And look, I'm an importer and reseller of foreign good (China). For every product (automotive) I probably fire 3 manufacturers out of 4. And I've had manufacturers try to change something to literally save $0.25 that impacts my customers. I believe it's endemic in the China market.

I believe that bottom-dollar (which is typically what the RV industry wants) tires are a problem when they are loaded to typical 80-90% of load capacity out of the gate.

I do not think all China products are crap. I replaced Trailer Kings with Sailun, both made in China, but the Sailun's literally weighed 100% more than the Trailer Kings.


I do not think it's possible to get "good data" to document RV tire failures. There are too many ways to subvert this data..

[sourdough]

This is kind of off topic, but sort of on topic.....

I just went to the NHTSA website for tire complaints and the Goodyear Endurance and Sailuns aren't listed that I could find.......? Now, back to our regular programming