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Old 08-23-2018, 09:23 PM   #81
CWtheMan
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Legal Info

Very good link by a tire industry writer.

https://www.moderntiredealer.com/art...roven-innocent
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Old 08-27-2018, 02:08 PM   #82
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“The RV Industry Association is the national trade association representing RV manufacturers and their component parts suppliers who together build more than 98 percent of all RVs produced in the U.S., and approximately 60 percent of RVs produced worldwide.”

RVIA has mandated changes in Original Equipment (OE) tire load capacity recommendations and design upgrades that are probably already showing-up on all new RV trailer models that display their RVIA membership placard.

IMO, any RV trailer manufacturer member that wants to remain a member is going to comply with RVIAs recommendations.

The basics are very simple. All RV trailer tires larger than 13” in OD must be radial designed tires.

RVIA recommends RV trailer manufacturer’s provide a 10% load capacity reserve, above the certified GAWRs for all OE tires. That means, a RV trailer with 3500# GAWR axles must have tires that that can provide 1925# of load capacity when inflated to the trailer manufacturer’s recommended cold inflation pressures found on the vehicle certification label.

I hope anyone that has a 2018 or later model RV trailer with a RVIA placard, will challenge the validity of their OE tires, if they do not meet the new RVIA standard.

There are a lot of bias ply tires still available from wholesalers. The RVIA bias ply tire recommendations do not include replacement tires. The recommendation is not legally binding in any way. Therefore, they can still be used as replacements for any tire fitments above 13” OD. They are much less expensive than radials. For those that only travel locally and only a couple times a year, they are the most economical solution.

Remember, RVIAs recommendations are in no way binding on the RV trailer industry. There is nothing to prevent the vehicle manufacturer from just leaving the RVIA seal of approval off the trailers they manufacturer. The vehicle manufacturer is still free to use the FMVSS without any government repercussions.
That explains why my tires, 2018 Cougar with an 8800 GVWR had the ST225/75R15 trailer king ii radials, #2830 rating.
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Old 08-28-2018, 07:48 PM   #83
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Triangle building ST tires in NC

Just some info. Triangle is building a complete line-up of ST tires in a NC plant. Here is a link. Lots of info in each tab.

http://triangletireus.com/truck-tires/tr653/
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Old 09-06-2018, 11:19 PM   #84
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Class Actions/Recalls

I’m not supporting GY one way or another with this post. I’m just going to present some information I’ve observed, first hand, and with some personal researching habits. All can be misconstrued as anecdotal except my actual experiences.

When we started full time RV travels in 2003 we purchased a 2003 Everest. It had 6000# axles and they were fitted with Goodyear Marathon trailer tires manufactured in a USA plant. They were ST235/80R16 LRD. At recommended cold inflation pressures Keystone set for them, 65 PSI, they provided 3000# of load capacity. In the beginning our trailer’s axles were carrying very close to their maximum load capacities with at least one tire being overloaded all the time. Before the scales became our friend we suffered 7 tire failures. All Marathons. After that, we went to the next higher load capacity for that sized tire, which provided us with more than 500# of load capacity reserves, per tire position, which were never above 3000# per axle end again.

I got so involved with RV trailer tire problems I got hooked on researching them. It became a sort of hobby. I got some analytical training and experiences while in the Navy. I was directly involved with the verification and validation of the maintenance manuals for the A7 Corsair II aircraft. I was formally trained and received certification as a Navy Manpower Management Analyst and worked on the staff of the Commander in Chief US Atlantic Fleet for three years. The team I was assigned to provided field support to all Atlantic Fleet Aviation Intermediate Maintenance activities. We worked in three person teams - one 05/04 one GS11/GS9 and one E9/E8 - and were on the road half of the year. The other half of the year we worked at the home office ironing out our reports.

I’m pretty sure the governing body, the Department of Transportation (DOT), got duped into a wrong assessment about how to determine the load capacity for Special Trailer (ST) tires. I’m pretty convinced that they should have followed the path taken with automotive tires and established some load capacity reserves for the ST tires. Very early on, the Rubber Manufacturers Association (RMA) - know known as the US Tire Manufacturing Association (USTMA) pushed hard for a 15% load capacity reserve above GAWR. It has never been adopted by the National Highway Traffic Safety Association (NHTSA). Without such requirements, RV trailer owners have been without any load capacity reserves for their tires from just about all trailer builders. The first to give us any clue was Carlisle. Many years ago they said their ST tires might degrade as much as 10% per year. Without any load capacity reserves, degrading guarantees tread separations on, otherwise, perfectly maintained tires.

Speed ratings were never discussed in the vehicle owner manual and even today in Keystone’s generic 2019 manual there is still no mention. What percentage of RV trailer owners knew their tires were limited to 65 MPH? Early on Carlisle recommended a maximum of 60 MPH in their PDF files for their ST tires. Today their bias ply tires have a speed letter “J” = 62 MPH.

The GY Marathon production was moved to China plants. Some thing happened, they continued to fail, back to the USA, still failing. Why they kept them in the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) loop is beyond me. Trailer manufacturer’s (IMO) were screwing them. Trailer manufacturer’s get to manipulate Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GAWR) values for any trailer they build. I’ve found Keystone trailers with GAWRs set at 5080# so they could put tires rated at 2540# on them. Travel heavy and above 65 MPH and pop in two years or less. The heavier the trailer the faster degrading happens. So they derate 7000# axles to 6850# so they can put the GY 3420# tires on them. All legal. Who pays? GY pays big time with the bad tire rep. Got a trailer with 3500# axles? Watch out for those 1760# tires, they wont last very long if you’re traveling close to axle max.

Then all of a sudden you see a China tire doing good in the ratings. No wonder, it’s not an OEM tire and is often used as a replacement with a load range increase above the OE tires. DAH!

Then you have the posters of failures that have done some homework. Everything was properly maintained but they had tread separations. Without a weight slip it’s just another anecdotal and the tire brand is at fault for sure.

If you’re going to travel heavy or think your traveling heavy or have never made a trip to some scales you’ve got to insure your tires have 100% of the inflation pressure listed on their sidewalls for maximum load capacity. You need to make it a habit to insure your tires are inflated before every trailer movement. The ballpark figure is a 1.6% loss of available load capacity for every 1 PSI loss of inflation. Any tire found to be inflated 20% below cold recommendation is considered to be in a “run flat condition”.

Class Action, Blah! There has been one collecting information for years on the Tow Max tires and it’s got nowhere. Their another high OEM usage tire getting hammered. IMO Class action is doomed without forensic support.

NHTSA needs to get hammered on this subject. RVIA has taken action. 10% is a big step over nothing. Maybe in a few years we’ll see a nice drop in ST tire failures. If not, we’ll have to get a bigger hammer.

Bottom line; I'd prefer a recall action over a proposed class action every time.
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Old 09-07-2018, 12:37 AM   #85
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Got a trailer with 3500# axles? Watch out for those 1760# tires, they wont last very long if you’re traveling close to axle max.
Exactly the case with my coach. Factory fitments included 3,500 lb axles and 14" LRC 1760 lb tires on a 7,600 lb GVWR trailer. Only took me a few months to realize the inadequencies of the components most likely to fail. As of 2019, the tire size remains the same but Keystone is abiding by the new RVIA recommendations of 10% reserve capacity with LRD fitments on the same coach. 2040 lbs of load capacity vs 1760 lbs. Definitely a step in the right direction.

I wish these guidelines included changes to axle and suspension components too. A failed leaf spring last week on my 2 year old trailer is reason for concern. They are only rated for 1750 lbs and now become the weakest link in the underpinnings on the chassis. The axles are a close second.
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Old 09-07-2018, 03:56 AM   #86
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HERE YOU GO....the answer to all.

always go up one rating level. If an 'E' rated, go up to a 'F' or better, a 'G' rated tire.

And, inflate to the level the tire states! 'G' rated tires are 110psi.
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Old 09-07-2018, 04:17 AM   #87
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HERE YOU GO....the answer to all.

always go up one rating level. If an 'E' rated, go up to a 'F' or better, a 'G' rated tire.

And, inflate to the level the tire states! 'G' rated tires are 110psi.
And that only works if your wheels are rated for the higher pressure... And in many cases the only way to do that is to swap axles or axle components to accommodate higher rated wheels..

For instance my 5200 pound axles have 16" wheels with 6 x 5.5 studs which are 80 lb. / 3200 lb. rated.. there are no 110 lb. wheels for that configuration or for that matter there are no 95 lb. wheels either. ...
Solution... Change to 7K axle components and buy new wheels for the "G" tires..

Not many folks going to do that...

My axles are rated 10,400 lbs. combined... My wheels are rated 12,800 lbs. and my tires are rated 13,680....

Now... where's the weak link for a trailer with 12,350 GVWR
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Old 09-07-2018, 04:57 AM   #88
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And that only works if your wheels are rated for the higher pressure... And in many cases the only way to do that is to swap axles or axle components to accommodate higher rated wheels..

For instance my 5200 pound axles have 16" wheels with 6 x 5.5 studs which are 80 lb. / 3200 lb. rated.. there are no 110 lb. wheels for that configuration or for that matter there are no 95 lb. wheels either. ...
Solution... Change to 7K axle components and buy new wheels for the "G" tires..

Not many folks going to do that...

My axles are rated 10,400 lbs. combined... My wheels are rated 12,800 lbs. and my tires are rated 13,680....

Now... where's the weak link for a trailer with 12,350 GVWR
There was a much easier solution in Michelin XPS Ribs or Bridgestone Duravis R250s. I ran RIBs in that configuration for 6.5 years, then a set of R250s for 4.5 years until the trailer was sold. Never a problem, seldom need tire added and I never looked back! Chris
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Old 09-07-2018, 05:07 AM   #89
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There was a much easier solution in Michelin XPS Ribs or Bridgestone Duravis R250s. I ran RIBs in that configuration for 6.5 years, then a set of R250s for 4.5 years until the trailer was sold. Never a problem, seldom need tire added and I never looked back! Chris
Which have a rating of 12,168 lbs. combined... Once again... even if I were so inclined, what would that actually accomplish... The axles are still the weak link by almost 1800 pounds and in fact what you suggest would make the rims the strongest element.. Mounting tires which have a lesser load rating solves nothing...
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Old 09-07-2018, 05:27 AM   #90
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Which have a rating of 12,168 lbs. combined... Once again... even if I were so inclined, what would that actually accomplish... The axles are still the weak link by almost 1800 pounds and in fact what you suggest would make the rims the strongest element.. Mounting tires which have a lesser load rating solves nothing...

Because one puts tires problems behind you with either of these two tires. Lower rolling resistance, and longer thread and tire life. Chris
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Old 09-07-2018, 08:18 AM   #91
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Because one puts tires problems behind you with either of these two tires. Lower rolling resistance, and longer thread and tire life. Chris
I should not have to remind you of this.

https://www.michelinman.com/US/en/he...res.html#tab-4

Remember, the prefix in this designated tire size, ST235/80R16, is part of its size.
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Old 09-07-2018, 09:08 AM   #92
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I should not have to remind you of this.

https://www.michelinman.com/US/en/he...res.html#tab-4

Remember, the prefix in this designated tire size, ST235/80R16, is part of its size.
All these years later and you are still lobbying for the ST tire manufacturers.
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Old 09-07-2018, 09:20 AM   #93
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Not that CW needs any backup from me. He is, after all, "the Man." But in following his tire posts for quite some time, it seems to me that he usually just writes what the facts are as he sees them and lets the reader make their own decision. YMMV
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Old 09-07-2018, 09:47 AM   #94
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Because one puts tires problems behind you with either of these two tires. Lower rolling resistance, and longer thread and tire life. Chris
See, that's the thing... I ain't got no tire problems.. underweight axles... maybe... But doing it my way and replacing my tires every two years, I got no tire problems
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Old 09-07-2018, 09:48 AM   #95
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Not that CW needs any backup from me. He is, after all, "the Man." But in following his tire posts for quite some time, it seems to me that he usually just writes what the facts are as he sees them and lets the reader make their own decision. YMMV
Fact is most ST tires did not get the title blowmax, maypop, china bomb and/or willpop because people did not know how to use them. They have been an inferior product for years. In the last couple years is has began to change to the better with Carlisle working hard to produce a decent ST tire, Maxxis that were made in Thailand(some swear by them) and now (drum roll) the new Goodyear Endurance.

It has been a long weight with a lot of rubber left along side the road and trailers damaged.
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Old 09-07-2018, 02:22 PM   #96
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Fact is most ST tires did not get the title blowmax, maypop, china bomb and/or willpop because people did not know how to use them. They have been an inferior product for years. In the last couple years is has began to change to the better with Carlisle working hard to produce a decent ST tire, Maxxis that were made in Thailand(some swear by them) and now (drum roll) the new Goodyear Endurance.

It has been a long weight with a lot of rubber left along side the road and trailers damaged.
I think it's a result of consumer demand. The rv industry buys the junk, then over the life of the unit the consumer will typically by a better set several times. I think it may have been Maxxis that first offered a better alternative and once their market share increased Carlisle and others followed. Good old competitive Capitalism at work!
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Old 09-07-2018, 02:31 PM   #97
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I think it's a result of consumer demand. The rv industry buys the junk, then over the life of the unit the consumer will typically by a better set several times. I think it may have been Maxxis that first offered a better alternative and once their market share increased Carlisle and others followed. Good old competitive Capitalism at work!
Maxxis is still a 3 maybe 4 year tire. They dry rot and fail from time to time. Maxxis share never grew that large because they had to be special ordered in most cases.

Availability if the GY Endurance is pretty much universal across the county. Discount tire had them in stock when I junked my brand new Goodrides and sold them on CL.
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Old 09-07-2018, 07:25 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by CWtheMan View Post
“The RV Industry Association is the national trade association representing RV manufacturers and their component parts suppliers who together build more than 98 percent of all RVs produced in the U.S., and approximately 60 percent of RVs produced worldwide.”

RVIA has mandated changes in Original Equipment (OE) tire load capacity recommendations and design upgrades that are probably already showing-up on all new RV trailer models that display their RVIA membership placard.

IMO, any RV trailer manufacturer member that wants to remain a member is going to comply with RVIAs recommendations.

The basics are very simple. All RV trailer tires larger than 13” in OD must be radial designed tires.

RVIA recommends RV trailer manufacturer’s provide a 10% load capacity reserve, above the certified GAWRs for all OE tires. That means, a RV trailer with 3500# GAWR axles must have tires that that can provide 1925# of load capacity when inflated to the trailer manufacturer’s recommended cold inflation pressures found on the vehicle certification label.

I hope anyone that has a 2018 or later model RV trailer with a RVIA placard, will challenge the validity of their OE tires, if they do not meet the new RVIA standard.

There are a lot of bias ply tires still available from wholesalers. The RVIA bias ply tire recommendations do not include replacement tires. The recommendation is not legally binding in any way. Therefore, they can still be used as replacements for any tire fitments above 13” OD. They are much less expensive than radials. For those that only travel locally and only a couple times a year, they are the most economical solution.

Remember, RVIAs recommendations are in no way binding on the RV trailer industry. There is nothing to prevent the vehicle manufacturer from just leaving the RVIA seal of approval off the trailers they manufacturer. The vehicle manufacturer is still free to use the FMVSS without any government repercussions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoking View Post
There was a much easier solution in Michelin XPS Ribs or Bridgestone Duravis R250s. I ran RIBs in that configuration for 6.5 years, then a set of R250s for 4.5 years until the trailer was sold. Never a problem, seldom need tire added and I never looked back! Chris
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javi View Post
Which have a rating of 12,168 lbs. combined... Once again... even if I were so inclined, what would that actually accomplish... The axles are still the weak link by almost 1800 pounds and in fact what you suggest would make the rims the strongest element.. Mounting tires which have a lesser load rating solves nothing...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoking View Post
Because one puts tires problems behind you with either of these two tires. Lower rolling resistance, and longer thread and tire life. Chris
I agree with Chris, I believe you don'e need XPS or 250's, just a quality LT tire of the correct size.

My current 5er has Yokohama LT 235/85-16 E's 3,042# ea. the number that Javi pointed out. Now I have 5,200# axles for an axle capacity of 10,400# that is 1,768# over axle capacity or 17%.

I just finished a rough scaling of the 5er. I weighed the TV the day before and unfortunately I did toss some extra stuff into the TV after, Maybe 50 to 100#. This gave me a pin of about 2,600# and 10,125# on the axles. Giving me a 12,725# or 365# over the listed GVWR (may need to loose some T shirts). Even at the weight I have 2,043# of unused tire capacity or 16.8% not bad at all. This on an LT tire with a built in weight reserve, I expect to get at least six years of service from these tires without worry.
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Old 09-07-2018, 08:05 PM   #99
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I agree with Chris, I believe you don'e need XPS or 250's, just a quality LT tire of the correct size.

My current 5er has Yokohama LT 235/85-16 E's 3,042# ea. the number that Javi pointed out. Now I have 5,200# axles for an axle capacity of 10,400# that is 1,768# over axle capacity or 17%.

I just finished a rough scaling of the 5er. I weighed the TV the day before and unfortunately I did toss some extra stuff into the TV after, Maybe 50 to 100#. This gave me a pin of about 2,600# and 10,125# on the axles. Giving me a 12,725# or 365# over the listed GVWR (may need to loose some T shirts). Even at the weight I have 2,043# of unused tire capacity or 16.8% not bad at all. This on an LT tire with a built in weight reserve, I expect to get at least six years of service from these tires without worry.
Russ, you are, and have been, a prolific voice for 1) LT tires vs ST tires and 2) disregarding gvw etc. I think, personally, that you mislead those that have no idea what LT, ST, gvw, gvwr mean. You tow overweight based on your perceived beliefs on whatever it is that you think is "the truth" even if it is outside the beliefs of most folks. By your measures, everything you do has performed better than anyone else that has ever towed an RV. That's spectacular , but, that isn't the case for everyone; and I, nor many other RV owners, buy into your thoughts. Your belief (I think it is you) that because you buy a tire with a higher speed rating LT tire (106 mph?) and then drive slower gives you MORE weight rating is just.....questionable at best. Please show the specs.
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Old 09-07-2018, 09:34 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CWtheMan View Post
“The RV Industry Association is the national trade association representing RV manufacturers and their component parts suppliers who together build more than 98 percent of all RVs produced in the U.S., and approximately 60 percent of RVs produced worldwide.”

RVIA has mandated changes in Original Equipment (OE) tire load capacity recommendations and design upgrades that are probably already showing-up on all new RV trailer models that display their RVIA membership placard.

IMO, any RV trailer manufacturer member that wants to remain a member is going to comply with RVIAs recommendations.

The basics are very simple. All RV trailer tires larger than 13” in OD must be radial designed tires.

RVIA recommends RV trailer manufacturer’s provide a 10% load capacity reserve, above the certified GAWRs for all OE tires. That means, a RV trailer with 3500# GAWR axles must have tires that that can provide 1925# of load capacity when inflated to the trailer manufacturer’s recommended cold inflation pressures found on the vehicle certification label.

I hope anyone that has a 2018 or later model RV trailer with a RVIA placard, will challenge the validity of their OE tires, if they do not meet the new RVIA standard.

There are a lot of bias ply tires still available from wholesalers. The RVIA bias ply tire recommendations do not include replacement tires. The recommendation is not legally binding in any way. Therefore, they can still be used as replacements for any tire fitments above 13” OD. They are much less expensive than radials. For those that only travel locally and only a couple times a year, they are the most economical solution.

Remember, RVIAs recommendations are in no way binding on the RV trailer industry. There is nothing to prevent the vehicle manufacturer from just leaving the RVIA seal of approval off the trailers they manufacturer. The vehicle manufacturer is still free to use the FMVSS without any government repercussions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoking View Post
There was a much easier solution in Michelin XPS Ribs or Bridgestone Duravis R250s. I ran RIBs in that configuration for 6.5 years, then a set of R250s for 4.5 years until the trailer was sold. Never a problem, seldom need tire added and I never looked back! Chris
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javi View Post
Which have a rating of 12,168 lbs. combined... Once again... even if I were so inclined, what would that actually accomplish... The axles are still the weak link by almost 1800 pounds and in fact what you suggest would make the rims the strongest element.. Mounting tires which have a lesser load rating solves nothing...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoking View Post
Because one puts tires problems behind you with either of these two tires. Lower rolling resistance, and longer thread and tire life. Chris
Quote:
Originally Posted by sourdough View Post
Russ, you are, and have been, a prolific voice for 1) LT tires vs ST tires and 2) disregarding gvw etc. I think, personally, that you mislead those that have no idea what LT, ST, gvw, gvwr mean. You tow overweight based on your perceived beliefs on whatever it is that you think is "the truth" even if it is outside the beliefs of most folks. By your measures, everything you do has performed better than anyone else that has ever towed an RV. That's spectacular , but, that isn't the case for everyone; and I, nor many other RV owners, buy into your thoughts. Your belief (I think it is you) that because you buy a tire with a higher speed rating LT tire (106 mph?) and then drive slower gives you MORE weight rating is just.....questionable at best. Please show the specs.
I have said that because the tire is rated for 3,042# at 106, that it has a higher reserve capacity at 60 to 70 mph. I will not exceed the tire weight rating.
I will say that a tire rated for 106 mph has better heat dissipation than a tire speed rated to 65 mph.

As to towing over the GVWR of my Ram, it tows, handles, brakes well. Yes, it has a PacBrake and optional from factory 265/75-16E tires at 3,415#. It is tough to get rid of a TV that tows so well. I don't encourage others to do it, if you look back I do encourage others to tow within ratings.
I will say that I seldom encourage moving from a 2500 to a 3500 SRW, basically the same truck. I usually encourage to go with a DRW.

I just convinced my DD to buy a 2004 Ram 3500 DRW to tow a four horse with small living quarters. This is the same trailer we towed home empty 250 mile with dads 2500, it still had a 2,600# pin empty.
We are currently looking at 2003 to 2007 Ram DRW to get away from our GVWR issue.
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