GAS OR DIESEL What to consider

[brodiegg]

I recently had to upgrade my truck from a Ram 1500 to a 2500 and did a lot of reading, watching videos, and talking to truckers. Diesels were the gold standard if you were towing, but with newer gas engines, the higher costs of diesel fuel over gas, the higher maintenance costs of diesels, the added cost of the def additive,and the much higher initial cost of buying---up around 6-9 thousand for diesels, the debate is getting foggier. A recent discussion estimated 60,000 to 150,000 miles to break even. They did say that if you are going to tow over 20,000 pounds, or a lot of mountain driving, diesels take over as the preferred engine. I chose the 6.4 hemi and used the savings for creature comforts---I like air cooled seats. I have owned a diesel suv and liked it, and my daughter drives a diesel, so no bias for or against. So the final answer is how big, how heavy, and where are you towing

[Number 4]

Your story matches mine brodiegg. I have the longer commute so I drive the Camry while the DW drives the F-250 gasser. Fuel mileage is no doubt better in a diesel, even for commuting, but our camping getaways are not long distance runs and the truck had zero issues climbing to 7,300 feet in June. My TT isn't huge, but with "stick and tin" construction it's not light weight and would have put me over capacity in a half ton truck. I also like the AC seats and all the extra goodies in the Lariat trim package! The tow/haul mode is fantastic so I'm good with gas.

[travelin texans]

If you're partime or weekenders, either will do the job. If you're going fulltime, ABSOLUTELY DIESEL, with the tow haul & exhaust brake is the best combination.
As for expenses, DEF is $11-12+/- every 3-3.5k miles, except for truck stops fuel is within a few cents of gasoline, oil changes at 7.5-10k miles rather than 3k, the big thing is the initial cost between the two. The other thing is longevity, the diesel will outlast the gasser a minimum of 2 to 1, more so if you're constantly towing in the mountains, with good periodic maintenance.
We've towed across the country several times, through the mountains on both sides & can't imagine doing it in a gasser.

[Number 4]

Originally Posted by travelin texans

If you're partime or weekenders, either will do the job. If you're going fulltime, ABSOLUTELY DIESEL, with the tow haul & exhaust brake is the best combination.
As for expenses, DEF is $11-12+/- every 3-3.5k miles, except for truck stops fuel is within a few cents of gasoline, oil changes at 7.5-10k miles rather than 3k, the big thing is the initial cost between the two. The other thing is longevity, the diesel will outlast the gasser a minimum of 2 to 1, more so if you're constantly towing in the mountains, with good periodic maintenance.
We've towed across the country several times, through the mountains on both sides & can't imagine doing it in a gasser.

I'm all in with most everything you wrote Danny, except for fuel pricing. This chart puts diesel 13% higher cost than regular and 6.5% less than premium. We only fuel up with premium if we're going into the mountains. Commuting and flatland towing does fine with regular grade. Maybe the average between regular and premium is within pennies?

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_gnd_dcus_nus_w.htm

Oil changes every 7,500 miles is sure nice compared to 3,000.

[JRTJH]

As an added comment, the cost of a diesel upgrade is usually "almost completely recovered" at tradein. Most 5 year old diesel trucks are priced about $5K - $8K more than a comparable gas engine model with the same optional equipment. So, even though that "new diesel option is $8K more than a gas truck" at tradein time, the cost of the engine is returned in increased tradein value.

That's not to say that diesels are for everyone. Just that it isn't always "painful or expensive" because of the cost of what's under the hood.

[Number 4]

But I admit, having a PowerStroke that could pull Giant Sequoia tree stumps would be amazing!

[brodiegg]

Yep, match the tow rig, tow vehicle, and living style and the match will be made in heaven.

[Javi]

I usually stay out of the diesel vs gas arguments... But if the twenty or so cents a gallon is the big reason to go with gas... y'all better rethink this thing.. especially if you tow very often.. Gas is going to get 7 - 10 mpg towing and diesel is going to top that by a couple or three mpg at worse...

BTW... resale... look at the same truck gas vs diesel.. you get your money back

Been doing this a long while, (bought my first diesel pickup in '83) and the positives far out weigh the negatives..

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Number 4

But I admit, having a PowerStroke that could pull Giant Sequoia tree stumps would be amazing!

But definitely not a requirement for the type towing you do. It's honestly an opinion/desire/cost/pocketbook issue with anything less than about 10K-12K trailer weight. Under that, a gas engine will do well for most people who don't full-time. Over that weight, well, it becomes more and more a necessity than an option. Sort of like SRW vs DRW with heavy loads. Maybe you can "squeak by, maybe you can't"..... Then even that boils down to "should you vs could you"....

There definitely a place for both engine types in RVing.

[bob91yj]

I drive a DuraMax, and I love my truck, but it would be a tough call for me between gas/diesel if I had to buy a new one. My truck is an '06 so it doesn't have all of the smog stuff that the newer ones have. My issue with the new ones is if something goes south on the emissions system it almost always throws the truck into limp mode. (I'm a service advisor at a Chevy dealership, I see plenty of trucks and their problems.)

[sourdough]

The diesel vs gas conversation is as old as, well....diesel and gas. And I know there are lots of diesel advocates and lovers on this and other RV forums but there are reasons for folks to choose a gas engine.

I've put the numbers to it every which way and there are a couple of no brainers to me; over 10 - 12k, diesel without a doubt period. Constant towing in variable terrains, read mountains; diesel. After that it gets much foggier.

The initial cost can't be recouped at all unless you retain the vehicle for a long time or drive it for lots of miles (I do neither). On top of that the additional ongoing maintenance, costs of repairs and cost of fuel make it difficult to determine that a diesel is the best choice for just everyday stuff unless you meet the first 2 criteria or just want one because they pull better...and they do pull much better than a gas engine; but then again, today, in my town, diesel is 29% higher than gas and it has been as much as 33-34% higher. It's hard to close that price point gap with that kind of difference. Fuel mileage has almost become a moot point. With the diesel bettering the gas engine in both highway and towing by maybe 20 - 25% it won't do well enough to overcome the fuel price difference. And then there's that 9-10k initial outlay.

As the OP noted, at one time a diesel was considered a necessity if you were going to tow much of anything - and, diesel fuel was always cheaper than gas back when. Times have changed and the offerings for gas engines have changed drastically and dramatically. They're nothing like they were when the old opinions were formed. So it IS much more difficult than it used to be unless you have some of the qualifiers I mentioned above. Not trying to start a diesel vs gas debate but rather trying to expound on the OPs observation of it being harder to choose a diesel because the clear cut lines in the past have become more blurry.

Edit: some posts appeared after I started composing this. Trade in value to recoup the initial cost is something I forgot to mention, and it is there, but according to my son (who has been in the car business for decades) the average trade in value of a used diesel over the gas counterpart was 4-5k. I'm sure that number moves all over the place depending on all the variable that go with a used vehicle. It still doesn't cover for the 9-11k up front cost unless it is giving you some tangible benefit above and beyond a gas engine to make up for the difference. IMO both engines belong in the towing world and have very definite, specific niches they fill better than the other one can. Your mileage can and will vary I'm sure.

[Number 4]

It's refreshing to read and agree with these many viewpoints, factors and figures that were rattling around in my brain last fall. Back in the day I test drove a super clean diesel station wagon when my brood was small. Back in the early 80's the diesel engines I was aware of were in Mercedes sedans and Mack trucks, and since I didn't know much about the care & feeding of a diesel engine I passed on the wagon, incredible deal that it was (that was another clue... too good to be true). Passenger truck diesels these days are clean, no longer make noise like a tin can full of nails, enjoy good fuel mileage, have amazing torque and run forever if well cared for.

Considering the need for a second commute vehicle and our smallish trailer I started looking for gassers... all the time wondering if I was making the right decision. Several "that's the one" deals fell through and then we found an extremely clean and well maintained F-250 from a private party who had dropped his price to sell quick, and we scored a killer deal. Why was he selling? To pay for the diesel F-250 he'd recently bought!

Several days before we were to leave for that 7,300 foot elevation outing I literally pointed my finger at Big Blue and said, "I'm counting on you to get up those hills girl!" and I'm happy to say it was the best towing experience I've had after years with my nice but underpowered '99 Ram 1500.

I've seen my exact same truck on the local freeway with a PowerStroke badge and thought "OOOoooooo, that would be sweet!" but I really don't need it. Would love to have it? Oh Yeah!

[Badbart56]

The reasons I prefer a diesel are many. It simply out performs the gassers. But my reason for addressing this discussion is an observation. Many of you speak of the 8-10 thousand dollar premium for the diesel option. I should point out that some of us don't buy new trucks. I haven't bought a "new" truck (or car) in decades. If you take your time you can save a fortune on depreciation by letting someone else take the hit. A new diesel truck will lose $10-$20K as soon as you drive it off the lot. So I don't take much of a loss (if any). Used vehicle prices have risen steadily over the years so if you do hold on to it long enough there's a good chance you can get your money back out of it. My last truck (97 F350) I bought for $5995 with 142K miles, in really good shape. I drove it for 10 years and sold it with 250K miles for $9000. You just have to be patient. The deals are out there.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by Badbart56

The reasons I prefer a diesel are many. It simply out performs the gassers. But my reason for addressing this discussion is an observation. Many of you speak of the 8-10 thousand dollar premium for the diesel option. I should point out that some of us don't buy new trucks. I haven't bought a "new" truck (or car) in decades. If you take your time you can save a fortune on depreciation by letting someone else take the hit. A new diesel truck will lose $10-$20K as soon as you drive it off the lot. So I don't take much of a loss (if any). Used vehicle prices have risen steadily over the years so if you do hold on to it long enough there's a good chance you can get your money back out of it. My last truck (97 F350) I bought for $5995 with 142K miles, in really good shape. I drove it for 10 years and sold it with 250K miles for $9000. You just have to be patient. The deals are out there.

You make valid points and I'm sure there are folks that can make that work, but, you realize that in 10 years you only put 108k on that truck. And I know lots of folks drive vehicles with high mileage but some, like me, don't. If/when I get close to 100k (never hit that mark) I will have a new truck. I've been stranded, and had large expenses, one too many times with a high mileage vehicle (twice). As a note though, I wish I could have a mindset to do that...it's much more economical than buying new.

[Badbart56]

I should add that I generally have access to 5 or 6 other vehicles as my family has a farm and during the time I owned that truck I was a sheriff's deputy, so I had a "company car" to take home, thus the low miles on that truck. I actually put 50K miles on it the year I retired, so the miles per year was really low. But diesels generally can be expected to outlast their gas counterparts although some may argue that point. But I have seen some of the newer diesels with over 600K miles so I know it's possible.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Badbart56

The reasons I prefer a diesel are many. It simply out performs the gassers. But my reason for addressing this discussion is an observation. Many of you speak of the 8-10 thousand dollar premium for the diesel option. I should point out that some of us don't buy new trucks. I haven't bought a "new" truck (or car) in decades. If you take your time you can save a fortune on depreciation by letting someone else take the hit. A new diesel truck will lose $10-$20K as soon as you drive it off the lot. So I don't take much of a loss (if any). Used vehicle prices have risen steadily over the years so if you do hold on to it long enough there's a good chance you can get your money back out of it. My last truck (97 F350) I bought for $5995 with 142K miles, in really good shape. I drove it for 10 years and sold it with 250K miles for $9000. You just have to be patient. The deals are out there.

Ref your comment I changed to red: I don't find that to be the situation with diesel trucks in this area. As an example, I paid 56000 for my truck new in 2015. Right now, average retail on it is 49,950. That's a depreciation of right at 6000 in 4 years of ownership. Granted, I've only got 40000 miles on it, so it's certainly not a high mileage vehicle. Trucks like mine are selling for retail or possibly above retail if well cared for with no visible defects. I'll agree, the biggest part of that depreciation occurred during the initial trip home from the dealership, but if my truck is any indication, there's not a 10-20K loss as soon as you drive it off the lot, at least not in this area.

You can confirm my figures at NADA.com. It's a 2015 F250 4x4 crew cab 6.7l diesel Lariat package with spray in bed liner, running boards, and navigation.

The diesel option is listed as:
Rough Tradein: $7,500

Clean Tradein: $7,500

Average Tradein: $7,500

Retail: $8,350

The MSRP for the diesel option was 8480 and I negotiated about a 14% discount (in dealer and FMC incentives and discounts) from the truck MSRP at purchase. So taking that deduction would be 8480x.14=1187, so the diesel engine option cost me around 7300. I'd say, based on the tradein values shown above, the diesel option actually made money ($200) rather than depreciated. YMMV and this is just what I see in my area, certainly not an accounting for anywhere else and I'm not suggesting that you're wrong, just now what's happening here.

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by brodiegg

I recently had to upgrade my truck from a Ram 1500 to a 2500 and did a lot of reading, watching videos, and talking to truckers. Diesels were the gold standard if you were towing, but with newer gas engines, the higher costs of diesel fuel over gas, the higher maintenance costs of diesels, the added cost of the def additive,and the much higher initial cost of buying---up around 6-9 thousand for diesels, the debate is getting foggier. A recent discussion estimated 60,000 to 150,000 miles to break even. They did say that if you are going to tow over 20,000 pounds, or a lot of mountain driving, diesels take over as the preferred engine. I chose the 6.4 hemi and used the savings for creature comforts---I like air cooled seats. I have owned a diesel suv and liked it, and my daughter drives a diesel, so no bias for or against. So the final answer is how big, how heavy, and where are you towing

Your comment in red regarding milage says it all to me. If you trade at 60K then a gasser will still be in one peice. Much more than that and it won't be if your towig heavy. A deisel at 60 K is just gettng broken in and will typically out last the seats, paint and everything else if properly maintained. A gas engine will never equal the pulling power of a deisel and that's just a fact. Gas doesn't produce anywhere near the tourge of a deisel. The power and tourque curve of gas is at a higher rpm (read more fuel consumption and more wear for the same amount of work) . So with all that said congratulations on your choice, it was obviously the right one for your wallet and needs.

[Badbart56]

John, there is $10-$20K profit margin built into the MSRP on new high end trucks and SUV's. You'll have a hard time trying to get that back on a trade, You may recover some on a private party sale but most folks, like myself, are looking for a bargain. Some of my friends who are dealer employees get enough of a discount to make buying new a good option, but again, if you are paying MSRP you lose quite a bit.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by Badbart56

John, there is $10-$20K profit margin built into the MSRP on new high end trucks and SUV's. You'll have a hard time trying to get that back on a trade, You may recover some on a private party sale but most folks, like myself, are looking for a bargain. Some of my friends who are dealer employees get enough of a discount to make buying new a good option, but again, if you are paying MSRP you lose quite a bit.

First off, I like your "interests" on your page.

On a new vehicle purchase I would never even consider MSRP.....they are pie in the sky to me. On this current truck the MSRP was 52k+. They went in and said they would sell it for "invoice" and brought me their "invoice" sheet. My son has been in the car business for decades so I called him. I gave him the VIN and he pulled up the "real" invoice. Theirs had 2 columns, his had 3. Their "invoice price" was around 48k. His, in the 3rd column, listed it as 44k. The sales guy asked me how I got that info and I told him "the VIN tells all". He went and got the GM, he looked at the sheet, looked at him and said "OK". Not a lot, but over a 15% cut on MSRP.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Badbart56

John, there is $10-$20K profit margin built into the MSRP on new high end trucks and SUV's. You'll have a hard time trying to get that back on a trade, You may recover some on a private party sale but most folks, like myself, are looking for a bargain. Some of my friends who are dealer employees get enough of a discount to make buying new a good option, but again, if you are paying MSRP you lose quite a bit.

Not to sound "flippant" but the actual numbers don't lie. You're correct about the profit margin built into new cars/trucks these days, but the key is that if you don't pay it, you don't have to try to recover it when you sell. I bought my truck with an MSRP of 68750 for 56000 OTD. Today that truck retails on any dealer lot with 40K miles for 49990 anywhere in this area. That's a depreciated value of 6000 over what I paid for the truck. Whether there's a "built in profit margin" or some other factory/dealer incentive really doesn't enter the picture when I paid a specific price in 2015 and the trucks are selling on dealer lots for a specific price today. Those are "hard facts" not "profit margin expectations"....

About 2 weeks ago, I was having coffee at the Ford dealership in Grayling. The sales manager offered me 48000 for my truck in trade for a 2018 F350 with the same equipment. I smiled at him and declined, but he was selling his new one for 15% off MSRP and giving me 100% of the tradein value. Deals aren't just for dealer employees and not everyone "takes a bath" when they trade. It's a matter of knowing what you have and what it's worth and not letting your butt want a seat more than your brain wants a reasonable value.

ADDED: The only reason (other than my DW) that I'm not buying a new truck is the sales tax. In Michigan, only the taxed amount of $2000 is deductible on trade. That means I "lose" the sales tax I paid on this truck ($46000 at 6%) and have to pay the full 6% of the purchase price (minus the $120 credit on the trade). So I lose about 2760 in sales tax already paid on this truck and have to pay 3774 on the 63000 purchase price. That adds up to about $6500 in sales tax difference in keeping what I have and buying a new truck. That has nothing to do with truck values, that's all "Michigan's contribution to better living at my expense"....