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Old 05-29-2015, 06:41 AM   #1
R&KFerguson
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Smile RV Beginners

We just bought our 1st trailer, a 2016 5th Wheel Cougar 333MKS and a 2016 GMC 2500HD 4 wheel drive to tow it. We will pick it up mid-June. Looking forward to learning from those on the forum!

If you see us out camping, you'll recognize us from the fantastic aromas coming from our site, as my husband is an amazing chef!

Happy Trails,
Kat
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Old 05-29-2015, 07:10 AM   #2
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Kat,

Welcome to the forum and to the Keystone RV family. You've selected a very nice trailer and one that will be comfortable to "camp" in. I hope you're very satisfied with your selection.

As you know, the 333MKS is a "mid size" fifth wheel and with the option of putting a washer/dryer in the front bedroom, the pin weight can "grow substantially". If you've not yet taken delivery of your new 2500 truck, you might want to check the payload capacity and do some calculations on how much weight in cargo, passengers, hitch and trailer pin weight you'll be adding. A number of our members have found that they required a 350/3500 class truck to carry the increased load of the 333MKS.

Good Luck with your new rig and we hope to hear reports from you on how well you like it.
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Old 05-29-2015, 07:38 AM   #3
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Welcome and please post up some of the wonderful dishes your husband cooks
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Old 05-29-2015, 08:03 AM   #4
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Congrats and enjoy. Jump on in...
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Old 05-29-2015, 08:03 AM   #5
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Kat,

Welcome to the forum and to the Keystone RV family. You've selected a very nice trailer and one that will be comfortable to "camp" in. I hope you're very satisfied with your selection.

As you know, the 333MKS is a "mid size" fifth wheel and with the option of putting a washer/dryer in the front bedroom, the pin weight can "grow substantially". If you've not yet taken delivery of your new 2500 truck, you might want to check the payload capacity and do some calculations on how much weight in cargo, passengers, hitch and trailer pin weight you'll be adding. A number of our members have found that they required a 350/3500 class truck to carry the increased load of the 333MKS.

Good Luck with your new rig and we hope to hear reports from you on how well you like it.
Thanks, John. As a matter of fact, we have not finished the truck transaction, and my husband is questioning the same thing. I have been reading through the forum to gain experienced insight to report.
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Old 05-29-2015, 08:03 AM   #6
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Welcome to the forum, congratulations on the 333MKS.. we love ours..


And what John said about the truck is spot on..
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Old 05-29-2015, 08:30 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
Kat,

Welcome to the forum and to the Keystone RV family. You've selected a very nice trailer and one that will be comfortable to "camp" in. I hope you're very satisfied with your selection.

As you know, the 333MKS is a "mid size" fifth wheel and with the option of putting a washer/dryer in the front bedroom, the pin weight can "grow substantially". If you've not yet taken delivery of your new 2500 truck, you might want to check the payload capacity and do some calculations on how much weight in cargo, passengers, hitch and trailer pin weight you'll be adding. A number of our members have found that they required a 350/3500 class truck to carry the increased load of the 333MKS.

Good Luck with your new rig and we hope to hear reports from you on how well you like it.
^^^That is wise advice^^^

Personally, I would listen and comply. Really...otherwise... later.
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Old 05-29-2015, 10:47 AM   #8
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to the forum and congrats on the new rig. X3 on what John said. You are in a good place in the transactions to negotiate for the 3500 class of vehicle if required.
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Old 05-29-2015, 09:05 PM   #9
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get a 350

The cost difference between a 250 and a 350 size truck is less than $1000. Spend the little extra now and you'll have a truck that will take you through the next trailer upgrade. Of course if you really want to go crazy, the 350 dual rear wheel rigs will handle almost any RV made, but the price adder is way more than going from a 250 to a 350.
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Old 05-30-2015, 04:23 AM   #10
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I just did a "build your own" on the Ford website. Here's the current pricing for the "base model Lariat package in each style:

F250, SRW, 6.7l, 8' bed, 4x4 $58,145
F350, SRW, 6.7l, 8' bed, 4x4 $59,040
F350, DRW, 6.7l, 8' bed, 4x4 $60,245

These trucks all come "standard" with leather interior, upgraded electronics, tow package, brake controller, etc. They are "pretty much equipped" and ready to tow a trailer/fifth wheel. While there are probably $20K in available options, those options are essentially the same price on all styles, so the above figures are "relative to the cost difference in a comparable 3/4 ton, 1 ton and 1 ton dually.

3/4 to 1 ton increases price $895, 1 ton to dually increases price $1205 and the price difference from a 3/4 ton to a dually is $2100. Keep in mind these are "FORD MSRP" prices before any negotiations. Around the Detroit area, I'm seeing 10-14K off MSRP for new, 2015 trucks in all three styles.

I didn't do any comparisons for Dodge or GM, but they are competitively priced, so there should be similar price differences in those models as well.

On initial buy, the price increase isn't that "dramatic", but buy any of them and "trade up" in a few months and you'll find a significant cost for the "mistake of buying too small".
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Old 05-30-2015, 07:39 AM   #11
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Thanks!

You all have been SO helpful! We have been reading through many threads for newbies, and have learned more through this forum than most of our other resources. I'm very glad we joined!!!
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Old 05-30-2015, 07:56 AM   #12
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Congrat's on your new "almost rig." I say almost because I hope you still "almost bought that truck." I wholeheartedly agree with all the posters above. I guarantee you will be more satisfied with the 350/3500 in all three brands. All will serve you better than the 3/4 ton. Let us know what you do; we are a nosey bunch!
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Old 05-31-2015, 07:43 AM   #13
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If all of those who have responded in this thread are correct, then why are there so many who are successfully pulling mid-size 5ers with less? Just trying to understand.

Here are some stats we have, so far on the vehicle we are looking at, a 2015 GMC 2500HD with max towing, which has very different towing than the comparable Ford 250.
Truck Engine - 6.6 V8 diesel 397 HP/Torc 765
Axle Ratio - 3.73
GAWR - 4WD, but when using 2WD 6,200 rear & 4,400 front
Max Trailor Towing Capacity - 17,100
GVWR of Loaded Truck - 6,900 + fuel & cargo = 9,500
Dry Weight of Trailer - 10,700
Wet Weight of Trailer - 12,500 + supplies (1,000?)
Truck Payload - 3,211
So, we understand pinweight (I think) but not payload. How are they the same/different?

What other info is needed to run the calculations? We honestly do not fully understand the simple science, even though we are educated professionals! We are very appreciative of all the specific help & support on this forum.

Reagan & Kat
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Old 05-31-2015, 08:12 AM   #14
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You have most of the numbers there. The main numbers you need to look at is the payload of your truck. 3,211, does not include any options, they will subtract from that, those numbers can be minimal, but make a difference. Then add hitch, people, and any gear you want to haul in the truck. All of that will tell you how much you have left for pin weight. You didn't list the pin weight of the trailer, but I'm going to guess it'll be around 2,000-2,700 lbs, that doesn't leave much to add to your truck before you hit the 3,211.

I had a 2011 2500 duramax, pretty much same specs as what you're looking at. Towed a Jayco with a GVWR of 11,600 and a pin weight of 2,500. Truck was pretty much maxed. More than enough power, weight of the trailer is not a concern with the power of the diesels, it's the pin weight. I towed my current Alpine with the 2500 once, traded for a 3500 DRW. The difference in stability is night and day. I found a used 2011 with the same number of miles as my 2500. Same year, same mileage, it was basically a swap except I went from an LT to an LTZ for $2k difference. Haven't looked back since.

EDIT* I just checked the pin weight of the 333MKS, listed as 1690. Once you're loaded you will probably see numbers more around 2100-2300. Add a hitch to your truck and you have about 700 lbs for people and gear before you are overloaded. I personally don't like running that close to max weight. I would probably go with at least a 3500 SRW, but I've been spoiled by the DRW so I'm biased towards that.
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Old 05-31-2015, 08:48 AM   #15
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You guys are making us SO glad we have not closed the deal on the 2500!!!
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Old 05-31-2015, 09:09 AM   #16
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I think a part of the confusion you're experiencing is not having all the data on the "specific truck" you're going to buy.

All of the data you've just typed into your post is "mixed and mashed" from a variety of different vehicles and there's no wonder you're totally confused.

There is a distinct difference in the "marketing section's brochure" and the "engineer's certification" found on the actual truck. Marketing is responsible for "beating the competition" so trucks appear better then the "other brand". Engineering is responsible for keeping GM (or Ford) from getting sued when something goes wrong. They don't have the same "objectives" so they don't always agree when put on paper.

Marketing (the figures you've posted) are for the "base model truck in the series. The figures "maximize" payload, maximum trailer weight and cargo capacity. Those figures are not even close to what you'll find on a truck sitting on the dealer's lot (unless you're buying a stripped down, base model). Just the diesel engine adds 500 lbs to the truck weight (reduces the payload by 500 lbs). Every option installed on the assembly line reduces the payload, and what comes out the "end of the line" is a truck that the engineers will "certify" to carry a specific weight. It won't be close to the brochure for almost every truck built. Confusing? Yup, so buyer beware !!! No matter how you "cut it" the payload can never be anything but the GVW minus the actual truck weight.

Here's the "bottom line":

You need to find the "SPECIFIC TRUCK" you plan to purchase, open the driver's door and read the GVW, PAYLOAD, RAWR and FAWR for that truck. Then find the "vehicle unladen weight" and compare the payload sticker to the GVW minus the vehicle weight. They should match, but ????

Next, go to the owner's manual, find the Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR). Subtract the truck weight PLUS all expected cargo from the GCWR and you'll have the "true" maximum trailer weight rating. It won't be anywhere close to the 17,100 pounds you posted.

Next, look for the GVW of the fifth wheel you're wanting to buy. The pin weight will be around 20% of that GVW by the time you've had the fifth wheel for a year and "loaded your stuff" into it. If you're going to add a washer/dryer, it sits directly over the pin, so almost all of that weight will be placed on the pin, making it even heavier.

It's not an easy, cut and dried calculation. You can't just take the glossy brochure as being "real world" and you've got to realize that advertising almost always "makes the truth sway to the advertiser's advantage. It's not "dishonest" rather it's "slanted in their favor"......

As for your question: "then why are there so many who are successfully pulling mid-size 5ers with less?" To be honest, today's diesel and gas engines/transmissions are capable of pulling much MUCH more than the advertised maximum trailer weights. But can they do it safely? Therein lies the "rub"...

In all honesty, there's probably a very large percentage of them that are towing 'overloaded". Some know it and do it anyway, some "rationalize" that they are staying close to home so it's OK. Some were flat "lied to" by the sales staff and believe that they are OK, some keep their head in the sand and refuse to weigh their rig, (if I don't know it won't affect me) and some, when they realize their situation, lose a significant investment by "coughing up the cash" to trade for a larger vehicle.

What you do is entirely up to you. It seems like you're concerned with safety and want to make the right decisions for your long term investment. In my first post, I stated, "you might want to check the payload capacity and do some calculations on how much weight in cargo, passengers, hitch and trailer pin weight you'll be adding. A number of our members have found that they required a 350/3500 class truck to carry the increased load of the 333MKS."

If you've checked the numbers and you're satisfied that you're making the right decisions for you, then you're ready to put down your money. But, if you don't understand the numbers and how they all work together, if you aren't comfortable calculating GCWR/GVW/Payload and Max Trailer Weight and if you don't understand how they affect each other, I'd urge you to keep learning until you do understand how all that "spaghetti alphabet" fits together.
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Old 05-31-2015, 09:45 AM   #17
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Looking at your numbers again I'll say this. The 2500 duramax crew cab will weigh in at around 7200 with a GVWR of 10,000, so you're already down to 2,800 instead of 3,200. As for the GCVWR, it should be 24,000 if I remember correctly. That gives you a max trailer towing capacity of roughly 16,800. Either way, you're not going to have a trailer exceed the max weight capacity, but you could quickly go over the GVWR of the truck with the pin weight.

I'm not real familiar with the 3500 SRW numbers, but I believe you will gain around 600 lbs of load capacity.

My DRW LTZ weighs 9,200 with full tank of fuel and my wife and I against a GVWR of 13,000. There isn't much more that could be added to this truck to add weight, has all of the bells and whistles so you can see right off the bat that I have 3,800 lbs of payload available, 1,000 more than the 2500. Not to mention 4 feet on the ground instead of 2. I haven't looked at 3500 SRWs much, but assume the rear tires have a higher capacity than those put on 2500s. I could be wrong.

As already mentioned, people do it successfully, not necessarily safely. Since I started transporting, 4 months ago, I have seen 4 RV accidents on the road that included a 2500/250 (3) or smaller (1) TV. All involved a roll over of the RV. Don't know the details on all 4 accidents, but could tell one resulted from a rear tire blow out on an F250 towing what appeared to be about a 35' TT. Obviously I don't know the maintenance routine of that individual, but I can guess that his rear tires were close to max payload capacity as well as the truck most likely overloaded. As for the other 3 accidents, they were either cleaned up to the point where I couldn't tell much about what happened or traffic was rerouted keeping me from getting close enough to see much detail.
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Old 05-31-2015, 10:03 AM   #18
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Here are a couple of posts I've made about this very situation..

http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/sho...66&postcount=5

http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/showpost.php?p=171868&postcount=10

2500 MaxTow will pull the 333MKS
note: the GVWR of my f250 was 10,000 and stickered payload was 2629. But when I went over the scales while loaded as for a trip with hitch, DW, dogs, and ancillary paraphernalia we had 1880 pounds left... Even if I disregarded the payload limit and went with the rear axle GAWR of 6200, I really was very close to being over..
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Old 05-31-2015, 10:06 AM   #19
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You are the BEST! Thank you for the long detailed explanations. We finally think we understand and are refining our search. I can't tell you how helpful this is hearing from people who know!

Kat
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Old 05-31-2015, 11:22 AM   #20
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Everything thing that John explained in great detail if followed will get you the right and safe TV.
I once bought the most powerful dodge 4x4 thinking that it had enough payload but the funny thing was that a 2x4 would have been a better choice as all the #,s matched up better for towing.
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