Towing with an overloaded truck

[sourdough]

Saw something yesterday and just thought I would share since we do have so many discussions about trucks, trailers and weights.

DW and I were out looking at properties in the outlying areas here in CO. Driving down a little rural blacktop I saw a 5th wheel and truck pulled over on the left side of the road. The truck bed was sagging very badly. I commented to my wife as we passed that there was an example of someone that towed way overweight. It was a newer F150.

On our return we were passing the same combo and my wife said "he has a flat". I stopped and backed up to look and sure enough the right rear tire was flat. I then looked at the blacktop and could see the black squiggly marks of a tire being run flat on the pavement.....it was from the left side! Got out and walked around and the left rear was ruined. I was going to take a picture but when I asked DW for her phone so I could she told me there was no way I was taking pictures of this guys misfortune and then spread it around on the internet!!

Anyway, it was about a 32-35' 5th wheel sitting on the F150 on OEM tires. Have no idea where they had been or what the tires had been subjected to but it was a severe example of what could happen when trying to tow a heavy trailer with an underequipped truck. Thankfully it was on a back road at a slow speed and not 65mph. Just wanted to pass that along as food for thought. I went back yesterday evening with MY phone so I could take a pic but it was gone.

[xrated]

He's probably at the nearest dealership right now, trading it in on something that is enough truck to haul that 5ver.

[rhagfo]

Without weight facts and pictures just another Internet story!
Keep in mind some F150 have about 1,200# payload, and others have near 3,000# yes the Max/Max F150 are rare,but out there.
The 5er make and model?? No information could be a 1/2 ton towable, might max out less than 10,000#.
Without the TV payload info and the 5er make and model just a TV with a flat tire.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

Without weight facts and pictures just another Internet story!
Keep in mind some F150 have about 1,200# payload, and others have near 3,000# yes the Max/Max F150 are rare,but out there.
The 5er make and model?? No information could be a 1/2 ton towable, might max out less than 10,000#.
Without the TV payload info and the 5er make and model just a TV with a flat tire.

That's the reason I wanted to get the pic - .....for folks like you. It was a Rockwood 5vr. No, I wasn't going to poke around someone's trailer and try to pull the specs off the door. I wish my wife would have let me have her phone.

Just "another internet story?" I take offense to that since you are implying I'm lying; which I'm not. I don't need to sit around dreaming up things to put on this forum. I just thought it was interesting, and, I've never seen both tires blown on the back of a pickup towing a travel trailer of any kind just sitting there. I do understand the variables in various tow vehicles but SOMETHING caused both rear tires to fail on a flat, smooth pavement.

As I said in the original post, I put that out there as food for thought......for those that can think.

[SUnderwood]

if I remember right this is a cat 279 about 10,000 lbs

[Bolo4u]

But, there was a safety chain attached.


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[drew999999]

Originally Posted by SUnderwood

if I remember right this is a cat 279 about 10,000 lbs

I had a Suburban Z71 similar to that. Loved the hell out of it for road trips but could hardly handle my 5000lb boat towing at 55. Pulling out of steep ramps at 4500 rpms was not fun. Couldn't imagine trying to handle a skid loader.


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[rhagfo]

Interesting that the trailer and load stayed upright while the TV is on its side. Yep bad case of the tail wagging the dog.

[vampress_me]

Or there's the slightly different setup I saw "parked" on the side of the road today on the north side of Rochester when we headed to the campground. Toyota Tundra pulling an older steel gooseneck stock trailer that was about 22'- 24' long. Truck and trailer pulled over on the side of the road with the drive shaft not attached to the rear axle anymore. The truck was newer, but it still made our son and I wonder why someone would try pulling a stock trailer like that with a Tundra. And yes, I obviously don't know the backstory on weights, but I do own a 3 horse bumper pull steel trailer that weighs 4700 lbs empty, so I have an educated guess.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by sourdough

That's the reason I wanted to get the pic - .....for folks like you. It was a Rockwood 5vr. No, I wasn't going to poke around someone's trailer and try to pull the specs off the door. I wish my wife would have let me have her phone.

Just "another internet story?" I take offense to that since you are implying I'm lying; which I'm not. I don't need to sit around dreaming up things to put on this forum. I just thought it was interesting, and, I've never seen both tires blown on the back of a pickup towing a travel trailer of any kind just sitting there. I do understand the variables in various tow vehicles but SOMETHING caused both rear tires to fail on a flat, smooth pavement.

As I said in the original post, I put that out there as food for thought......for those that can think.

Well looked at specs on Rockwood Ultralite 5ers, they have a couple 32' 5ers that come in just under 10,000# GVWR, dry pins in the 1,400# to 1,500# and low payloads so loaded pins pushing 2,000#.
They also have a 31' that has a GVWR of less than 9,000#, still a
1,400# pin so maybe 1,700# to 1,800# loaded.
The big issue with the newer F150 is that the GVWR is very close to the total of the axle ratings, making possable to be within GVWR, but over rear axle rating.

With the newer F150 an easy way to get an idea of GVWR, is the number of Lugs, 5 lugs Grocery getter, 6 lugs max tow, or for newest could also be Max/Max, 7 lugs max/Max before the AL body.
Sourdough, never accused you of lying, just a story with few facts, you got close enough to state OEM tires, but the Max/Max came with LT tires, did the TV have OEM "P" rated tires?
Maybe it just wasn't owners day! Bad stuff comes in waves!

[the sodfather]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

Well looked at specs on Rockwood Ultralite 5ers, they have a couple 32' 5ers that come in just under 10,000# GVWR, dry pins in the 1,400# to 1,500# and low payloads so loaded pins pushing 2,000#.
They also have a 31' that has a GVWR of less than 9,000#, still a
1,400# pin so maybe 1,700# to 1,800# loaded.
The big issue with the newer F150 is that the GVWR is very close to the total of the axle ratings, making possable to be within GVWR, but over rear axle rating.

With the newer F150 an easy way to get an idea of GVWR, is the number of Lugs, 5 lugs Grocery getter, 6 lugs max tow, or for newest could also be Max/Max, 7 lugs max/Max before the AL body.
Sourdough, never accused you of lying, just a story with few facts, you got close enough to state OEM tires, but the Max/Max came with LT tires, did the TV have OEM "P" rated tires?
Maybe it just wasn't owners day! Bad stuff comes in waves!

"7" lugs on a max/max...I'm guessing that's a typo...

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by the sodfather

"7" lugs on a max/max...I'm guessing that's a typo...

No it isn't, the pre aluminum bodied F150 had a 4,800# GAWR on the rear and it had 7 lugs. This went away with the aluminum bodied Max/Max.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

Well looked at specs on Rockwood Ultralite 5ers, they have a couple 32' 5ers that come in just under 10,000# GVWR, dry pins in the 1,400# to 1,500# and low payloads so loaded pins pushing 2,000#.
They also have a 31' that has a GVWR of less than 9,000#, still a
1,400# pin so maybe 1,700# to 1,800# loaded.
The big issue with the newer F150 is that the GVWR is very close to the total of the axle ratings, making possable to be within GVWR, but over rear axle rating.

With the newer F150 an easy way to get an idea of GVWR, is the number of Lugs, 5 lugs Grocery getter, 6 lugs max tow, or for newest could also be Max/Max, 7 lugs max/Max before the AL body.
Sourdough, never accused you of lying, just a story with few facts, you got close enough to state OEM tires, but the Max/Max came with LT tires, did the TV have OEM "P" rated tires?
Maybe it just wasn't owners day! Bad stuff comes in waves!

Didn't go to the trouble of pulling the Rockwood 5th wheel specs. Little brother has a new Rockwood Signature Ultra Lite that comes in right at 10k gvw. This one appeared to be as large as his. That would give it a 2k pin weight plus/minus. A lot for any 1/2 ton.

I did not poke around an unmanned truck/trailer because it's not right. I did look at the tires. I did not get down on the ground and try to read the sidewalls. There was a house about 75 yards up the hill looking straight at the road and I already felt uneasy getting out and nosing around the rig. I walked to the side, assessed that the tire was flat and had been damaged and just sort of looked over the combo walking back to the car.

My thought, when posting, and as food for thought, was that here is a 1/2 ton truck with a 5th wheel that has at least 2k on the pin. 2 tires are blown on the rear. What is the common denominator(s)? 1) high pin weight in the bed of a 1/2 ton truck and 2) probably P rated tires that come on nearly all 1/2 tons. A person can take what they want from that, pictures or not. It raises red flags to me and just reinforces the limitations of a 1/2 ton truck IMO.

[notanlines]

Danny, for the life of me I can't find anything to disagree with what you said. Now that makes three times in a row! But I will find fault in you not having nerve enough to crawl around and inspect the tires. Those of us in that age range should stick together and just say we lost our ......whatever comes to mind, and get up off our knees and go back to the truck.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by notanlines

Danny, for the life of me I can't find anything to disagree with what you said. Now that makes three times in a row! But I will find fault in you not having nerve enough to crawl around and inspect the tires. Those of us in that age range should stick together and just say we lost our ......whatever comes to mind, and get up off our knees and go back to the truck.

Thanks Jim. I probably would have tried to assess the tires but I've had many surgeries on my knees. Last year marked the 6th on my right knee; 2 replacements, one removal for 3 months and a removal of a lot of leg bone due to infection damage. Squatting, crawling and bending the knees for "non essential" functions is a no no. I figured if someone pulled up and asked me, or the owner, I WAS going to go with the "I just lost my mind" kind of thing. And yes, now more than ever we "in this age range" should stick together.

[Bolo4u]

Heres a story about a colleague, and his very recent towing experience.

Back in April, I was talking with him about 5th wheels and such, and our much anticipated upcoming trip. He mentioned he had just purchased and was going to be taking delivery of, the following week, his new Montana 5r (I don't recall the model). I congratulated him and said he was going to love it! I asked him what he has for a TV. He told me a 2015 GMC Denali diesel 4x4... I'm sure my look of took him by surprise. We discussed weights and such. I explained to him my research regarding weights, GV/AWR's, and all the things I've learned and my experience with having had an undersized tow vehicle and the reasons I upgraded. He understood and said he would see how it goes. I did recommend to him going to a scale facility and weighing his truck, finding out what his payload limit was for his truck and how to generally calculate the pin weight of his 5r, so he would at least have an idea where he was, weight wise. Throughout the week, he would ask me different questions, and I could tell the gears were turning... we parted ways, and I wondered off and on over the weeks since, how his towing experience with his new 5r and his TV were going, but never got around to touching base with him.

Today, out of the blue, he sends me a picture of his BIG beautiful Montana hitched to a new TV... A Ford... dually!! with an attached text: I took your advice and got a dually. MUCH better than towing w/ my Denali. Thanks for all the info and help. Needless to say, I was taken aback... I humbly thanked him for updating me, and told him I had been wondering how things were going.

He replied on their first trip to San Diego and return, was sketchy at best. The Denali suspension was all over the place and made for a long and nervous trip there and back. He said this truck was night and day better, compared to the other.

I asked him if he ever had the chance to weigh the other truck while connected and he didn't, but he did weigh this setup. Dry weight of the truck 9220 (not sure if that included the ~150 hitch or not, or what cargo/passengers he may have had when weighed) rear axle 3980. The truck and trailer combined 23640, rear axle 7220, giving him a pin weight of 3240 (not sure if the hitch was on the dry truck or not), regardless, I'm confident he was overweight on his Denali by 1000 EASILY. Even he commented he was surprised how much more the pin weighed then the advertised 2810 (I don't know how much cargo he may have had when he weighed his new setup). He said he contemplated getting a SRW, but with the weights, he was happy he got a DRW. I again thanked him and challenged him to a tug-o-war with our trucks over an adult beverage

Moral of the story: Sometimes you may not know what effect/result down the road (pun intended) you might have with someone when casually discussing weights, TV's and their 5r/TT. In this case, my sharing the info I have learned (a lot from here) with him ahead of time at least planted a seed, which, after his very FIRST, first hand negative experience, caused him to re-evaluate his setup and change it for the better.

Hopefully it will help others too.

[JRTJH]

Thanks for sharing your friend's experiences. Many of us have "been there/done that" and fully understand and appreciate what he and what you "went through" with the tow vehicle learning curve. Far too many people are "manipulated by sales team experts" at the dealership and unfortunately, many of them take that sales pitch as "expert recommendations" from someone who really knows RV towing. Later, from sites like this, from experiences like the ones you've conveyed and from "seat of the pants" experience, they realize the reality of towing.

For some, planting a seed is all it takes to "open the door". For others, they'll never "get it" no matter how much anyone tries to use logic and reality. For most of us, I believe the experiences posted on this and other forums, at least causes some "critical thinking" and the result is that we all tow in safer roadways with more "user friendly" equipment.

Often it seems that the advice and the experiences comes across as preaching and the "noobie" reacts with resistance. Sometimes feelings are hurt, frustration shows through as anger and resentment. But, once the dust settles and tempers cool, more times than not, I've seen a new thread or a post in the "Let's See Your Tow Vehicle, Trailer or Rig" thread. It's those kinds of posts, the knowledge that "they listened", that makes it all seem "worth the effort"...

Thanks for sharing your friend's "learning curve"......

[captcolour]

I think another one of those that will "never get it". From the Ford SuperDuty forum:

"Read through about every post on towing here and have come to the conclusion that the stickers are BS. Haven't bought the 5th wheel toy hauler trailer yet, but looking at several options and looking for opinions from the experts.

Tow Vehicle: 2017 F-250 Lariat with Ultimate package, FX4 4x4 CCSB, 6.7L engine, 3J rear axle, 3.55 ratio, 20 in aluminum wheels with LT275/65R20E All terrains.
For Reference: Front GAWR - 5200 lbs Rear GAWR - 6340 lbs, Payload - 2178 lbs. Has tow tech bundle but not the HD Tow package.

Planned hitch is B&W Turnover ball with Companion Slider (20K rating) - about 300 lbs installed. Willing to add air bags to counter sag.

"Trailer: Under consideration are dry weights from 10,500 to 12,700 lbs with GVWR in the 15,500 to 17,000 lbs range. All the king pin weights are running 2250 - 3150 lbs. Ideal trailer would be 12,400 dry, 16,500 gross and 2,450 king pin. Will haul two 850 lb ATVs, plus associated crap...

Last towed a 16,000 lb GVWR 5th wheel, with 2009 F-350 CCLB, SRW, using B&W non-slider....never had a problem.

Bottomline - can my truck safely haul the ideal trailer listed above?? If I use the Ford numbers, the answer is no, simply due to king pin weight. Not looking for the legal answer...looking for the practical."

Last sentence sums it up. Obviously knows he is not close to being within weight limits. A few of us put up the warning signs, but there were more responses of what he was looking for I believe:
"Yes. The truck can safely handle that."
"Yes there is. It's because it's a 250 and underrated on the sticker to fill the class 2 truck segment. It has nothing to do with it's physical design."
"Ford rates it lower to stay in a certain class. Hook the trailer up and roll."
"I want to tow within the physical capabilities of the truck, not be restricted by some arbitrary legal numbers that aren't based on fact or engineering."
"you're good to go."
"legal, no but it can handle it just fine"
"Truck will handle it no problem."

Like I commented, I don't want him following behind me with that set-up.

[Bolo4u]

I like the, I towed a 16000 trailer with an F350 with no issue. And now he wants to tow a heavier trailer with a lighter truck...

You may not want to be in front of him, but if you're behind him, you can be a good witness, although you could be stuck behind the pile-up for awhile.


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[xrated]

Just a thought......."We are not only surrounded by idiots, we may in fact, be outnumbered!"