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Old 01-20-2019, 08:03 PM   #1
rhagfo
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Towing heavy with 3/4 Ton... How Many Know......

I am just wondering as one who towed for years with a Ram 2500 towing over GVWR. How many of the others that do the same keep a close eye on their other weights? I am referring to axle and TIRES.

While I was well over the GVWR of our 2001 Ram 2500, I was still under rear GAWR and far under the optional 265/75-16E tire rating of 3,415# capacity.

My math was GVWR 8,800#, GVW with 5er was 10,500# that is 1,700# over, but rear GAWR was 6,084# (Based on standard 245/75-16E tires 3,042# rating) last scale rear axle was 5,900#.

I watched the later weights closely, tires being the crucial item.

Just to be clear;
2001 Ram 2500 CTD GVWR 8,800#. It had Camper and tow packages also with 3500 rear spring pack.
Weight ready to tow 7,800#
Weight with 5er connected 10,500#
Rear axle 5,900# (GAWR 6,084#)
Front axle 4,600# (GAWR 5,200#)

5er weight 12,700# Pin 2,700# axles 10,000#
GCVW 20,500#

Just wondering is it just an assumption by others that if a 350/3500 SRW can carry it so can they just slap some bags on it (I didn't have bags!), or do you weigh and watch axle and TIRE ratings.

This could also apply to those carrying a 5er with a 150/1500.

I no longer need to worry about that for a while now.
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Old 01-20-2019, 08:21 PM   #2
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I watch my weights very close - 2014 Ram 2500 6.4 Hemi. Payload 3040#. 5th wheel is around 11,000#. Loaded up with family, hitch, some stuff in the bed and the loaded 5th pin, I can be as much as 500# over GVWR but still under RAWR of 6800#. Tires are good for 3600# each. I weigh regularly and the highest I've ever seen my rear axle is 6050#. Usually, it's around 5700 - 5800#. Not a lot of room to spare but enough that I'm comfortable. Especially with tires being good up to 7200# between the two.

To me, tires and axle ratings are king. Never, never exceed them. I wouldn't ever have a setup that consistently put me over 90% of either of those (even though I'm sure the engineers have plenty of safety factored in as well). GVWR? Nice to stay under but I personally don't feel it's a safety concern exceeding it unless it also means going over tires or axle ratings.
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Old 01-20-2019, 08:31 PM   #3
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Russ I'm just going to jump in here. I'm not really sure what you are asking or where you're observations point.

As you know I have made observations about your previous weights. I also know you always tried to tell others that what you did was not something they should do. Unfortunately, to me, to new owners that was always a bad example because you always tried to justify what you were doing, even though you were way over all weight limits....some newbies I'm sure took that the wrong way and made wrong decisions.

You gave, and have given, lots of numbers that point to the fact you were overloaded (very), then, you point out spring packs, tires and tow packages to basically say it was "alright". You, and we, know that was not the case. Now you have upgraded vehicles (super) because you know you needed to.

Is this post trying to justify towing overloaded because you upgrade tires etc. and trying to find how many others do or?? That's all I get out of it I think. Axle AND tires? I'm not sure what that means. The numbers are posted on the vehicle...whatever you choose to do doesn't change that unless you take the measures necessary with the applicable regulatory agencies. Did you do that?

Here's a post I made recently about trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear;..

http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums...ad.php?t=36331
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Old 01-20-2019, 08:52 PM   #4
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Sourdough, first I am NOT attempting to justify towing over GVWR. Yes I have done it for about six years with our current TV.
What I was trying to get to, is if those that tow 5ers that take their 2500 over GVWR, do they respect any other weight rating. ESPECIALLY tires, they tend to be the weakest link.
Many mid to late 2000's 2500's ran with 17" tire with a weight rating of only 3,195#.
I will be the first to state that while it towed great, that large number was always in the back of my mind.
You should know by now that I recently solved that problem!

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Old 01-20-2019, 09:50 PM   #5
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Your story is very common. I’ve given comments on weights before. The gist here will be the same.

Manufacturers of vehicles build them to a given weight called Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR). Once the vehicle is ready for the open market the vehicle manufacturer must certify it as having complied with all vehicle safety standards as of the date of certification. It’s a serious document and has severe legal consequences for vehicle manufacturer violations. That is why, in the last section of vehicle certification, there is a notation that states only the vehicle manufacturer or a certified vehicle modifier have the authority to change a certified GVWR value.

The vehicle owner that disregards the GVWR and continuously exceeds it may never suffer vehicle damages for their actions. However, they are exceeding a weak link somewhere and it is more likely to fail when constantly overloaded.

When the vehicle is built the manufacturer must meet minimal safety standards and sometimes are required to exceed them with “reserve load capacities”. That’s true of axles and tires on automotive vehicles but not on RV trailers.

The Gross Axle Weight Ratings (GAWR) is to the axles as GVWR is to the vehicle. Except, on automotive vehicles there is going to be a percentage of reserve load capacity provided by tires that exceed the load capacity of the axles and axles that exceed the load capacity of the vehicle. It’s a mechanical/engineering thing that owners have mixed trusts in.

The simple answer; GVWR = the weight rating established by the chassis manufacturer as the maximum weight (including vehicle, cargo, liquids, passengers, etc.) the components of the chassis are designed to support.
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Old 01-20-2019, 10:01 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by CWtheMan View Post
Your story is very common. I’ve given comments on weights before. The gist here will be the same.

Manufacturers of vehicles build them to a given weight called Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR). Once the vehicle is ready for the open market the vehicle manufacturer must certify it as having complied with all vehicle safety standards as of the date of certification. It’s a serious document and has severe legal consequences for vehicle manufacturer violations. That is why, in the last section of vehicle certification, there is a notation that states only the vehicle manufacturer or a certified vehicle modifier have the authority to change a certified GVWR value.

The vehicle owner that disregards the GVWR and continuously exceeds it may never suffer vehicle damages for their actions. However, they are exceeding a weak link somewhere and it is more likely to fail when constantly overloaded.

When the vehicle is built the manufacturer must meet minimal safety standards and sometimes are required to exceed them with “reserve load capacities”. That’s true of axles and tires on automotive vehicles but not on RV trailers.

The Gross Axle Weight Ratings (GAWR) is to the axles as GVWR is to the vehicle. Except, on automotive vehicles there is going to be a percentage of reserve load capacity provided by tires that exceed the load capacity of the axles and axles that exceed the load capacity of the vehicle. It’s a mechanical/engineering thing that owners have mixed trusts in.

The simple answer; GVWR = the weight rating established by the chassis manufacturer as the maximum weight (including vehicle, cargo, liquids, passengers, etc.) the components of the chassis are designed to support.
Well I wasn't defending what I did and you should have caught the fact I was referring to to those that tow over GVWR, do they just do it blindly, or do they pay attention to TIRE ratings.

To a point in 2001, the frame in a Ram 2500 and 3500 DRW were the same.
They had ONE GVWR for a 2500 and ONE GVWR for a 3500 DRW, there wasn't a 3500 SRW from 1994 to 2002, you could get a 2500 with Camper Package that had 3500 springs, axle, and additionally optional 265/75-16E tires, but zreo increase in GVWR.
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Old 01-20-2019, 10:09 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by rhagfo View Post
Sourdough, first I am NOT attempting to justify towing over GVWR. Yes I have done it for about six years with our current TV.
What I was trying to get to, is if those that tow 5ers that take their 2500 over GVWR, do they respect any other weight rating. ESPECIALLY tires, they tend to be the weakest link.
Many mid to late 2000's 2500's ran with 17" tire with a weight rating of only 3,195#.
I will be the first to state that while it towed great, that large number was always in the back of my mind.
You should know by now that I recently solved that problem!


I'm LOVING that truck Russ! Now, if I could just get DW to let me tear down the existing garage and rebuild....
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Old 01-21-2019, 09:57 AM   #8
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Well, I had a 96 f250, SC 4x4 7.3. and as most know if they check, the f250 and f350 at that time shared the same rear end, brakes and most other parts. Mainly 1 less spring in rear and maybe raiser blocks of different size. Most important was they came with 8 ply D rated tires. The f350s with 10 ply E rated tires.
I later got a 10 foot in bed truck camper and went to the nearest Oregon dot scale. The dealer said I would be fine. (anyone heard that one)
I was over 200 lbs on each rear tire and maybe close or just over by a 100 to 200 lbs on GVWR. I went to the tire shop and got tires on the same wheels that gave me 200 lbs extra than needed with the camper/truck loaded.
A couple hundred pounds over on the GVWR is over I understand but we are splitting hairs. I felt being over 200 lbs max on each rear tire was too much. Maybe it would have never been a problem. I upgraded to the f350 as soon as I could, which was 2 years after the camper purchase.
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Old 01-21-2019, 11:53 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by rhagfo View Post
Well I wasn't defending what I did and you should have caught the fact I was referring to those that tow over GVWR, do they just do it blindly, or do they pay attention to TIRE ratings. That's why I went with a general statement rather than a direct quote.

To a point in 2001, the frame in a Ram 2500 and 3500 DRW were the same.
They had ONE GVWR for a 2500 and ONE GVWR for a 3500 DRW, there wasn't a 3500 SRW from 1994 to 2002, you could get a 2500 with Camper Package that had 3500 springs, axle, and additionally optional 265/75-16E tires, but zero increase in GVWR.
The vehicle manufacturer is solely responsible for determining the weakest links. Obviously, in their opinion, no increase in GVWR was warranted. The consumer can look to other models or manufacturers for increased GVWRs. (The Ram started using tubular framing construction with year model 2004).


Minimal wheel, tire and axles selections are set by government regulations. As long as the vehicle manufacturer meets those minimum requirements their vehicles are certifiable for such selections.


The gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) is the maximum operating weight of a vehicle as specified by the manufacturer including the vehicle's chassis, body, engine, engine fluids, fuel, accessories, driver, passengers and cargo.

A certified vehicle modifier may have the ability to increase GVWR by upgrading the known weakest links. However, some may be confidential and only the vehicle manufacturer can reveal what they are. In the long run, IMO, it would be less expensive to just trade UP. The modifiers hourly scale for such modifications is quite high. A place to research those monitory scales might be those that modify MDTs for RV trailer towing.

http://www.dmbruss.com/zRedRover/RR_MediumDutyTruck.htm
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Old 01-21-2019, 02:59 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CWtheMan View Post
Your story is very common. I’ve given comments on weights before. The gist here will be the same.

Manufacturers of vehicles build them to a given weight called Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR). Once the vehicle is ready for the open market the vehicle manufacturer must certify it as having complied with all vehicle safety standards as of the date of certification. It’s a serious document and has severe legal consequences for vehicle manufacturer violations. That is why, in the last section of vehicle certification, there is a notation that states only the vehicle manufacturer or a certified vehicle modifier have the authority to change a certified GVWR value.

The vehicle owner that disregards the GVWR and continuously exceeds it may never suffer vehicle damages for their actions. However, they are exceeding a weak link somewhere and it is more likely to fail when constantly overloaded.

When the vehicle is built the manufacturer must meet minimal safety standards and sometimes are required to exceed them with “reserve load capacities”. That’s true of axles and tires on automotive vehicles but not on RV trailers.

The Gross Axle Weight Ratings (GAWR) is to the axles as GVWR is to the vehicle. Except, on automotive vehicles there is going to be a percentage of reserve load capacity provided by tires that exceed the load capacity of the axles and axles that exceed the load capacity of the vehicle. It’s a mechanical/engineering thing that owners have mixed trusts in.

The simple answer; GVWR = the weight rating established by the chassis manufacturer as the maximum weight (including vehicle, cargo, liquids, passengers, etc.) the components of the chassis are designed to support.
So the state of Washington licenses tonnage based on a price scale determined by empty weight times 1.5 and then rounded to the next higher even ton as min.

Our 2001.5 2500 RAM with a 8800 lb manufacturers GVWR was licensed to 12K. Accord to Washington's version of the federal bridge weight laws, I was able to operate the truck above the manufacturers GVWR legally. Actually they could care less about GVWR. Given that states all have reciprocal agreements, I could also operate the vehicle according the Washington's rules in the other 49 states.

Our 2015 RAM 3500 SRW SB has a 11,700 manufacturers GVWR, and is also licensed by the state at 12K, for around 35 dollars per year more I could license it at 14K if I wanted to.

Wadcutter on rv.net who is a retired weigh master and instructor for weigh station personnel in his state has explained this many times to that forum.

No pickup truck will exceed the federal bridge weight laws that care over to state's weight codes. These are the weight laws enforced for vehicles operating on the countries roads at the weigh stations(ARA chicken coops). In addition, states that include tonnage licensing create another requirement that I vehicle operator mush comply to.

https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/pub...ghts/index.htm
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Old 01-21-2019, 03:36 PM   #11
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don't know if this has anything to do with over/under weight but last Friday on I 40 east of Albuquerque.

https://www.hometownsource.com/elk_r...41cfb3cc8.html


RIP
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Old 01-21-2019, 03:53 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by sourdough View Post
I'm LOVING that truck Russ! Now, if I could just get DW to let me tear down the existing garage and rebuild....
Thanks Sourdough!
So am I and the DW.
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Old 01-21-2019, 04:38 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by CWtheMan View Post
The vehicle manufacturer is solely responsible for determining the weakest links. Obviously, in their opinion, no increase in GVWR was warranted. The consumer can look to other models or manufacturers for increased GVWRs. (The Ram started using tubular framing construction with year model 2004).


Minimal wheel, tire and axles selections are set by government regulations. As long as the vehicle manufacturer meets those minimum requirements their vehicles are certifiable for such selections.


The gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) is the maximum operating weight of a vehicle as specified by the manufacturer including the vehicle's chassis, body, engine, engine fluids, fuel, accessories, driver, passengers and cargo.

A certified vehicle modifier may have the ability to increase GVWR by upgrading the known weakest links. However, some may be confidential and only the vehicle manufacturer can reveal what they are. In the long run, IMO, it would be less expensive to just trade UP. The modifiers hourly scale for such modifications is quite high. A place to research those monitory scales might be those that modify MDTs for RV trailer towing.

http://www.dmbruss.com/zRedRover/RR_MediumDutyTruck.htm
CWtheMan, you missed the entire point of the post before going on your rant.

Sourdough, seems to have caught the point I was getting at.

The way I see it there are two types that tow over GVWR.

Those that do it and are aware they are over GVWR, but under on other crucial weights, such as axle and tire. They know where they stand on those weights and choose to tow that way. These people don't bother me.

Then there are the uninformed, those that the Salesperson said "you can tow that No Problem" and happily go down the road and never stop at a scale to see what their weights are. They have no clue what GVWR, GAWR, or max weight capacity of their tires. Theses are the ones I worry about.

We Camp Host, and see a lot of 3/4 Ton TV come in the parks with 5ers that surely have them over GVWR, some I am sure know their situation, and watch tire, and axle ratings. Then again I am sure many don't have a clue as to any weight rating, or were told their 3/4 ton has a 17,000# max tow capacity, so go out and buy a 16,500# 5er and go down the road unaware.

I point to questions like the one in this post.
http://www.irv2.com/forums/f45/towin...-a-427476.html


Personally, we were getting settled into retirement, once we had a good handle on our post retirement finances we chose to get the correct TV.

I will add one more thing, our 2001 Ram 2500 with Camper Package, was the SRW 3500 that Ram didn't offer from 1994 to 2002. Same as 3500 DRW less two rear tires.
I figured if I were to go to a newer 3500 SRW it would be a lateral mover, I would not feel much improvement over our current TV other than more power.
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Old 01-21-2019, 04:48 PM   #14
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So the state of Washington licenses tonnage based on a price scale determined by empty weight times 1.5 and then rounded to the next higher even ton as min.

Our 2001.5 2500 RAM with a 8800 lb manufacturers GVWR was licensed to 12K. Accord to Washington's version of the federal bridge weight laws, I was able to operate the truck above the manufacturers GVWR legally. Actually they could care less about GVWR. Given that states all have reciprocal agreements, I could also operate the vehicle according the Washington's rules in the other 49 states.

Our 2015 RAM 3500 SRW SB has a 11,700 manufacturers GVWR, and is also licensed by the state at 12K, for around 35 dollars per year more I could license it at 14K if I wanted to.

Wadcutter on rv.net who is a retired weigh master and instructor for weigh station personnel in his state has explained this many times to that forum.

No pickup truck will exceed the federal bridge weight laws that care over to state's weight codes. These are the weight laws enforced for vehicles operating on the countries roads at the weigh stations(ARA chicken coops). In addition, states that include tonnage licensing create another requirement that I vehicle operator mush comply to.

https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/pub...ghts/index.htm

Every state has vehicle registration fees of some sort. Here in SC my dually is registered for 23,500# and that's on my vehicle registration card. It's the maximum combined weight for my particular model. Without the optional 4.10 and auto trans it would be 22,000#.

Remember the "C" in GCWR =The gross combined weight rating is the maximum allowable combined mass of a road vehicle , the passengers and cargo in the tow vehicle, plus the mass of the trailer and cargo in the trailer. This rating is set by the vehicle manufacturer.
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Old 01-21-2019, 05:05 PM   #15
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This rating is set by the vehicle manufacturer.

That number appears no where in the vehicle, is not part the weight rating label in the door jam and appears only in tow rating charts that most states could care less about, as they enforce the federal bridge weight laws at weigh stations.
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Old 01-21-2019, 05:36 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by CWtheMan View Post
Every state has vehicle registration fees of some sort. Here in SC my dually is registered for 23,500# and that's on my vehicle registration card. It's the maximum combined weight for my particular model. Without the optional 4.10 and auto trans it would be 22,000#.

Remember the "C" in GCWR =The gross combined weight rating is the maximum allowable combined mass of a road vehicle , the passengers and cargo in the tow vehicle, plus the mass of the trailer and cargo in the trailer. This rating is set by the vehicle manufacturer.
CW the GCVWR is easily changed by simply changing the rear axle rating, we currently have 3.73's if I dropped 4.10's in our new Ram my Max towing goes from 24,890# and GCVWR 33,800# to Max trailer 30,830 and GCVWR 39,100#
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Old 01-21-2019, 05:39 PM   #17
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Every state has vehicle registration fees of some sort. Here in SC my dually is registered for 23,500# and that's on my vehicle registration card. It's the maximum combined weight for my particular model. Without the optional 4.10 and auto trans it would be 22,000#.

Remember the "C" in GCWR =The gross combined weight rating is the maximum allowable combined mass of a road vehicle , the passengers and cargo in the tow vehicle, plus the mass of the trailer and cargo in the trailer. This rating is set by the vehicle manufacturer.
Did you declare that number or did they ask for all the details of your truck to look it on RAM tow guide, if they could fine it for your year? If you declared it, could you declare a higher number?
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Old 01-21-2019, 05:54 PM   #18
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Did you declare that number or did they ask for all the details of your truck to look it on RAM tow guide, if they could fine it for your year? If you declared it, could you declare a higher number?

The DMV has the information in their computer files. In fact, when I went to register it the first time the asked me if I had the 4.10.

The owner can declare a lower number. But, if inspected by the state DOT and found over the weight on the registration card the first fine is $500.00.


No one can use a higher value than what the DMV has on file for that vehicle, as equipped.
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Old 01-21-2019, 05:56 PM   #19
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CW the GCVWR is easily changed by simply changing the rear axle rating, we currently have 3.73's if I dropped 4.10's in our new Ram my Max towing goes from 24,890# and GCVWR 33,800# to Max trailer 30,830 and GCVWR 39,100#

Yup, those values are provided by the vehicle manufacturer. The truck's GVWR did not change.

The GCWR is a combination of tow vehicle and towed vehicle. Individually they cannot be overweight. In other words, a balanced weight is needed to achieve the maximum GCWR.

"The GCWR is a function of the torque output of the engine, the capacity and ratios of the transmission, the capacity of the driving axles and tires, the capacity of the radiator, and the ability of the chassis to withstand that powertrain torque."
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Old 01-21-2019, 07:44 PM   #20
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The DMV has the information in their computer files. In fact, when I went to register it the first time the asked me if I had the 4.10.

The owner can declare a lower number. But, if inspected by the state DOT and found over the weight on the registration card the first fine is $500.00.


No one can use a higher value than what the DMV has on file for that vehicle, as equipped.
That is pretty close to an exact opposite of what Washington does for their licensing. You can not license at less than 1.5 times the empty weight rolled to the next even K. You can however pay for any amount over that. The Trailer does not have to be included for private non commercial trailers. Trailers have their own plates based on value, not weight.
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