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Old 07-31-2015, 06:08 PM   #21
larry337
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Nope. That's how much them F250's weigh with a diesel. My 2010 went around 78-7900 everytime I weighed it. And it was an XLT without a lot of options. I'm curious to know if you have weighed your dually? Mine is a fully loaded Lariat and weighs 8660 empty, weighed it on a Cat scale at the local truck stop. Fords are heavier then Chevrolet as a rule.
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Old 07-31-2015, 08:25 PM   #22
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Howdy All;

Dealer Responsibility is an oxymoron ...

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Old 08-01-2015, 03:59 AM   #23
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Haha....no load of bricks in the back, just me and nothing else. However, I am about 20 lbs overweight. I could loose weight and add a few more pair of shoes!
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Old 08-01-2015, 06:10 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by mark1228 View Post
Ok so help me understand your concern. Looking at Keystone's website on the High Country models, the heaviest one they show has an empty weight of just over 12000 lbs. The heaviest pin weight of any model on the website is under 2500 lbs.
You have a 2014 F250 with a 6.7L diesel. I don't know what cab configuration you have or axle ratio is in your truck but according to ford.com, the F250 6.7L with the lowest 5th wheel tow rating is 15900 lbs so it appears to me you would be well within your limits on any of the High Country models. What am I missing?
Mark,

You are comparing "apples to oranges" in your statement. The 2015 F250 comes in gas or diesel configuration and a number of option configurations. The MAXIMUM payload for the F250 is 3890 lbs (regular cab gas 4x2) while the crew cab (same configuration) is 3280. The diesel option increases the truck curb weight by 648 pounds and reduces that configuration payload by the same amount. So the payload for a "regular cab diesel" is 3242 pounds. Keep in mind that is for a "stripped down" XL model. Every option that Ford installs reduces the payload, so a Lariat model would have a payload around 800 pounds less than the XL model.

What does that mean to the "Lariat Crew Cab Short Bed owner"???? The average payload for a 2015 Lariat SB Crew Cab is around 1900-2400 pounds depending on the engine installed and the "luxury options" installed. From that payload, all passengers, cargo, weight of the hitch, any owner installed accessories must be deducted. So, the "real pinweight capability" can be less than 1000 pounds (depending on what the owner carries in his truck along with the fifth wheel).

Your statement that the F250 can "tow" up to 15900 lbs is correct, but it can't "carry" the pin weight of 2500 pounds with passengers and cargo. It will be "Overloaded"....

Why the "tow rating" is so high is to allow it to "tow" a bumper hitch load up to that weight (with appropriate hitch weight). The F250 simply can't carry the pin weight of anything larger than a "medium size light weight" fifth wheel.

I have the truck in question, a 2015 Lariat crew cab short bed diesel. I tow a 2014 Cougar XLite 27RKS with an advertised pin weight of 1230 pounds (per Keystone website). I am at my maximum payload by the time I load my wife (145 lbs), the dog (50 lbs) and the generator (50 lbs) along with an empty blue tank, the fifth wheel hitch and my "carry it in one hand" tool bag.

You are "correct" in stating that the F250 diesel is rated to "tow" 15900 lbs" and in a "bumper pull configuration" it is easily capable of performing that task. Where you "miss something" is in assuming that it can "also" carry the 20-25% pin weight of a fifth wheel weighing 15900 lbs. With a maximum payload less than 2000 pounds (in diesel configuration) the F250 simply can't tow even the smallest High Country model without being "over payload".
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Old 08-01-2015, 06:48 AM   #25
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I have the 2012 version of the F250: XLT, SuperCab, 6.7L Diesel, 4x4, Short Bed, 3.31 gearing. Tow ratings are nearly identical to the '14 and '15 models. The max pull in 5th wheel is 16,000# and the max payload is 1,919#. My Cougar's pin weight is 1,550 or so fully loaded. I have a Sherline scale and have weighed the pin several times since I got the trailer. The trailer's GVWR is about 11,965. I consider my rig to be maxed out even though I've got a few extra pounds to go before hitting the listed limits. It tows extremely well and gets about 14 mpg traveling through the Adirondacks.

2,500# pin weight is just plain out of the question for this truck.
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Old 08-03-2015, 04:54 AM   #26
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Cut & pasted from the Keystonerv.com site for Montana High Country 5th wheels:

"High Country's Helium Technology utilizes advanced materials and manufacturing technology to significantly reduce weight while maintaining all the features, comforts and luxury you expect in a Montana. Because Helium Technology saves you 1300-2500 pounds compared to typically equipped fifth wheels, you can reduce wear and tear on your tow vehicle, improve fuel economy and maximize the towability of your 3/4-ton truck."

They have no shame.
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Old 08-03-2015, 05:22 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by larry337 View Post
Nope. That's how much them F250's weigh with a diesel. My 2010 went around 78-7900 everytime I weighed it. And it was an XLT without a lot of options. I'm curious to know if you have weighed your dually? Mine is a fully loaded Lariat and weighs 8660 empty, weighed it on a Cat scale at the local truck stop. Fords are heavier then Chevrolet as a rule.
Ran my dually through the scale at the local dump a few months back, don't have the slip in front of me, but if I remember correctly it came in at 9030. I had a tool box on it back then, which has now been removed, but everything that was in it is now in an equipment box that goes between the 5er hitch and tailgate. I didn't have the hitch in it and have added a 70 gal auxiliary fuel tank. I need to run it across a scale again when I have both tanks full. I'm probably getting close to 10k now.
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Old 08-03-2015, 05:49 AM   #28
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Our 2011 F-250 XLT, 6.7 Diesel, 4x4 crew cab with 3.31 gears has a GVWR of 10,000# and a GCVWR of 23,500#. The truck weighs 7890# with me and the DW, the dog, the hitch and a full fuel tank.
On a recent trip, we scaled at 4640 front, 4880 rear, and 8000 trailer.
That is loaded for a 1wk+ trip full water tank and empty waste tanks.
4640+4880=9520. 9520-7890=1630 on the pin. Trailer GVWR is 10070.
8000+1630=9630. So, we can pull our "Half Ton Towable" 282RESWE Cougar but we don't have a lot of reserve. Coulda - Woulda - Shouda - a 1ton SRW would have been a smarter choice. But we're under the limits and I like the 13.5 to 14mpg we get towing with the 3.31 gears.
BTW, when we visited the Quartzsite RV show, we were kicking tires and looking at a Montana 3750FL. Salesman asked us if we liked the trailer. We said "Yes but we couldn't pull it" He asked about our TV and then assured us that we "could easily pull ANY trailer on the lot"!
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Old 08-03-2015, 06:17 AM   #29
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My question is, how can these dealers tell you that you will be fine with the weight of the trailer with no regards to GVWR or pin weight? Is there not any responsibility or liability on their part? The salesman did everything within his power to convince me it was no problem.
Same thing here. Do I need a different license? No.
3/4 ton towable? Absolutely.

Both things were false.. And I knew that going in. They are there to sell units, not give technical advice. Their own drivers don't even have the right license to transport many of the heavier 5th wheels in my state.

It's not unique to the RV industry. It's a sales thing.
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Old 08-03-2015, 06:24 AM   #30
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As I've said before, if the dealers made sure the buyers had tow vehicles within the tow limits before selling them their new RV, most would be out of business. All most sales guys want to do is make a sale, feed their family, and that's it. I know there are lots of great sales people that know their product and want to educate the consumer but they are not that common from my experience.

The last two times we went out and looked at new toy haulers the sales guy knew little or nothing about the product they were trying to sell. It's frustrating to me and just shows me they don't care enough about their job to even do just a little reading on the product. We had one guy that acted like he was bothered just over having to get out in the heat and show us toy haulers and he couldn't answer one single question. I've always had the mindset if you're going to do something do it right. No matter what job someone has they should have pride and do it professionally.
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Old 08-03-2015, 06:24 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by jsmith948 View Post
... Salesman asked us if we liked the trailer. We said "Yes but we couldn't pull it" He asked about our TV and then assured us that we "could easily pull ANY trailer on the lot"!
Remember those old sayings???? If his lips are moving, he's lying..... and, Anything to close a sale...... Unfortunately, it seems far too many RV salesmen (and saleswomen) either don't understand the difference between GCWR, Max Trailer Weight and Payload or they just choose to ignore it.
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Old 08-03-2015, 07:36 AM   #32
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If the dealer intentionally lies to a buyer to make a sale and the buyer is injured or injures others, the dealer may be liable. However, look at what the dealer actually says; In answer to the question, will my truck pull this trailer? Virtually any diesel 3/4 ton truck will pull most any fifth wheel. Will my truck be able to stop with this trailer? With properly working and adjusted brakes on the truck and trailer, yes you will be able to stop. The question not asked is; will I as an inexperienced driver pulling a large trailer in congested traffic situations be safe? The honest answer would be probably not and that is true even if the tow vehicle is a White Freightliner or similar vehicle. The limiting factor is not so much the tow vehicle as it is the driver and his/her experience and ability. What the dealer should say in answer to the question is to ask what experience the driver has. He doesn't want to scare off a potential sale but maybe some buyers should be discouraged about buying a big rig.
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Old 08-03-2015, 12:08 PM   #33
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It's one thing to be out on the sales lot with a salesman lying to you. No one will be able to prove anything that was said.
It's another thing for Keystone to put it on their website.
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