Thank you Keystone - Page 2

Rusty · 07-18-2017, 01:05 PM

My main issue is with the front cap, it has been washed and waxed and still has faded. If the manufacturer were to use automotive grade finishes there would be no problem. As I said I am seeing a lot more units with the same issue, if say the manufacturer was to use automotive grade finishes and a good clear coat we would not have to wax twice a year, which on a 35 foot fifth wheel can be a real big job as you can appreciate.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

Rusty · 07-18-2017, 01:16 PM

I will have a look when I get home I have used some oxidation removal wax I got from the dealers shop.

Also when I referred to the dealer as stealer it was just a case of being frustrated as I have done what has been recommended and still have issues and it appears itnus just as bad. I don't actually call them that, I actually have a very good relationship with my dealer. I seen a few others in a forum many years ago call them that.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

**JRTJH** · 07-18-2017, 03:01 PM

Keystone started using molded front caps on their mid-line trailers in about 2010 or 2011. Prior to that Cougars, Sprinters, Laredos were all "flat FILON fronts or white molded fiberglass fronts. In about 2012 (if I remember correctly) Cougar started using fiberglass caps with a molded in color. They used those caps in 2012 and 2013 and in 2014 they started painting all their Cougar caps because of a "fading/oxidation" of the gray color. They didn't have much problem with the white fiberglass caps, had some issues with the gray and brown colors that were "molded" in. In 2014 Keystone "solved the problem" by changing the cap process to a "automotive paint with clear coat finish". So, they did solve the problem, and they have helped some owners with repainting. I'd guess it's about a 50/50 ratio and I can't find any rational reason why some people get help and others don't. I will say that the longer it gets from manufacture date the harder it is to get Keystone to help.

As an example, the automotive industry switched from enamel/lacquer paints around 2000 (maybe even earlier) and for a couple of years there were a large number of cars around with "gray primer" on hoods and roofs where the paint literally "peeled off the surface. GM, Ford and Chrysler helped some owners, not others, and there was a lot of "anger and frustration" from owners.

It's not just the RV industry, not just Keystone that has problems with paint failure. I understand that it gets "personal" when it happens to anyone, but that doesn't mean the entire system is a failure and that the manufacturer is at fault for every paint failure....... In this situation, it sure looks to me like your dealer sold you a "bill of goods" and then walked away when they found the first opportunity to abandon you. I very seriously doubt if your dealership has ever reported your oxidized front cap to Keystone and, if they did, I'd be very curious to see just what documentation they provided to show their support of the "customer's side"...... My guess is that Keystone has never heard from your dealer about your problems. Then again, I could be so very wrong.....

Rusty · 07-18-2017, 03:09 PM

What say you?

It pisses me off to see this!

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

Rusty · 07-18-2017, 03:12 PM

Yes they have heard from my dealer and they washed their hands, as they cite the time factor, sucks because they won't help much past 2 years, my problem showed up 3 years after! Imagine that?

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

Rusty · 07-18-2017, 04:18 PM

So JRTH looking at your arguments I am right that Keystone during the year my unit was built built a sub standard exterior? And of course they have now switched it up to what I figure the fix should have been?

Do I read right? Or am I wrong?

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

**sourdough** · 07-18-2017, 04:59 PM

I am not answering for John but I'll give you my assessment;

The initial exteriors had issues with exposure to the sun - all manufacturers had that issue. They had a few years and found that they were getting complaints of fading/deterioration of the gelcoated surfaces. Some got them fixed; some didn't. Sometime in 2014 (if I recall it was for the 2015 model run) they began painting them properly to eliminate the issues they were having with the baked in gelcoat colors (those with the newer ones can shed light if it worked). They changed to something to fix the problem when it became apparent that what they were using had problems.

I bought my trailer on 2/26/14. It was made in Oct. 2013. It had fading issues. Mine was caught by the service manager at my CW and Keystone paid to have it painted using top grade automotive paint with 2 coats of clear coat. No problems since. Others have caught theirs and some have had them painted even after warranty ran out. At 3 years post purchase I don't think Keystone is going to pay to have your trailer painted and I wouldn't expect them to.

I don't think they put a sub standard exterior on your trailer. It was what everyone used - I suppose what they thought was a good surface. They sure did make the trailers look much nicer but I guess that particular choice for long term use wasn't vetted. They did try to make things right for those that brought it to their attention in a timely manner and then moved to a new process to rectify the problem - in a pretty short time frame actually. I hate it, but in your case I'm afraid you're going to be on the hook for the cosmetic repairs. I spend 3-4 months in FL each year and although I keep my RV in an enclosed, insulated storage facility (when not in use) I can see the beginnings of fade on the sides. It makes me unhappy, but, all I know to do is break out the Meguiar's cleaner wax, scrub and polish yet again - and tell myself again and again....it's just a toy, it's just a toy.......

Rusty · 07-18-2017, 05:12 PM

See that's the way I look at it, pisses me off that I am going to be on the hook, but if I attempt to ignore it it is going to just get to the point that the cap will have to be replaced or it completely disintegrates.

I have contacted Keystone, I don't expect any joy.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

**JRTJH** · 07-18-2017, 05:29 PM

First you need to understand a little about how the RV industry "evolves".... I'm certainly no expert, but I've been around RV's for 50+ years and have seen a lot of things "come and go" from black tank combustion units to basement air conditioning and a host of other "we can one up the competition with this". Many of which turned out to be nothing but a dismal failure.

The "component manufacturers" come up with "cheaper/better/innovative/different" kinds of components and "hawk" them to the RV manufacturers at trade shows. The company designers, engineers and management teams go to those shows looking for ways to make their models "better" than the competetion. Sometimes the component manufacturers offer a "only you can use it" to a specific company, other times they offer the innovation to all the manufacturers. In the case of "molded color fiberglass front caps" the component manufacturer offered it to all the RV companies, many of which bought the "new colored caps" believing they were better than the older white production caps. They started installing them, things were "super" across all the brands from Keystone to Hartland to Jayco to Fleetwood to Forest River. Then, after a year or so in the field, they all (every manufacturer who was using the molded color caps) started having problems with the finish oxidizing. Some kept using them, some started painting the caps "in house" others simply went back to what they were doing before colored caps (installing white with decals again). Keystone opted to contract with the cap manufacturer to revise the process and to use automotive paint with a gelcoat finish (like they were doing on the "high line trailers".

It might be interesting to note that Airstream has "always had a burnished aluminum exterior". In about 1974 they opted to start painting the exterior with a clearcoat which was cheaper than the chemical burnished finish they had used for decades. That decision was made by Brunswick (of bowling alley fame) as a cost cutting measure the first year they owned Airstream. About a year after they started having clearcoat peeling that "disfigured" their customer's trailers. If you want to talk about an "uproar", you should read some of the older documents (from before the internet) about that situation. Actually, it caused Brunswick to sell off Airstream, and after a couple of other owners, the brand was bought by THOR, who also owns Keystone.

So, No, keystone didn't "build a substandard exterior" during the model year production run when your trailer was built. Keystone (and many other manufacturers) installed the caps, believing they were an improvement in the appearance of their trailers. It wasn't discovered until after a couple of years that the "molded in color" wasn't holding up, so they stopped using it and started painting their caps with automotive grade paint.

How they determined who did and who didn't get "out of warranty assistance" isn't something they shared with anyone that I'm aware of. Certainly they never asked my "permission" to make any decisions

I do know that the problem has essentially "gone away" the further out from when they all stopped using the caps. Yes, the cap "finish" was not as durable as it should have been, but it is not a "safety, reliability or operational defect" it's a cosmetic problem. How Keystone chooses to resolve or not resolve cosmetic problems isn't something they share with the public. You might find some answers from the customer service section, but after this many years, I'd suppose that the only thing you'll get from Keystone (right or wrong) is the courtesy of listening to your "rant" and then telling you they are very sorry.

I know that's not what you want to hear, but it is what it is......

Johnny's Journey · 07-18-2017, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty

My point is that we give these dealers and in the end the manufacturer an ungodly amount of money for these things and this is the crap we get, I should be able to park my unit in my backyard and not have to worry the finish deteriorating in less then a year! It was waxed and buffed last Sept! Let that sink in, Sept which is 10 months!!!!

Sad!

I feel your pain. Since I've been on here it's "sad" to read how poorly these unit's are made. My 3 week old Springdale is also one of them. I just spent 2 plus hours after work reworking the door jamb and screen door because of pushed in jamb at striker because that was the easy way of setting it and there where other unit's set the same way. And I'm still not done tuning and straightening. But I'd rather do it because I've seen how return QC work is done and it's not pretty and often ends up worse. I'm just thankful I have what others say is a gift of repairing and adjusting where other's fail.

Rusty · 07-18-2017, 06:17 PM

John I am fully aware of issues in the RV world!

In a round about way I feel you have validated the original intention of this thread. Whether they intentionally manufactured the trailer the way they did or not, they did use inadequate materials! Thankfully they have rectified in a way I figured it should be.

I have seen the company I work for chose to use Chinese crap because when push comes to shove the all mighty dollar wins out, profit above all else! I get it, doesn't make it right!

Problems with RV??

Our last 5th wheel, which was a Thor BTW....coming into Rapid City the shackles gave out and the suspension collapsed, the wheels came within a hair of touching at 55 mph!

Had to completely rebuild the plumbing from the 3 tanks as the cable operated dump valves seized, stupidist system known to man imho, however trailer manufacturers continue to us a system that inherently siezes up, mostly to do with the way they route and support the cables! I hate this system, hated when I seen my 2013 Cougar had the same damn thing!

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

cvin · 07-18-2017, 06:30 PM

i personally want to be made aware of these kinds of issues and the info supplied here from others about when the manufacturers changed the paint etc

this is useful to me as someone who will be upgrading to a 2-3 year old 5th wheel in a few years

i dont think it is cool any of these expensive trailers are fading and delaminating etc
was not happy to learn this was going to be an issue if i want to keep my trailers more than 3-4 years

ctbruce · 07-18-2017, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cvin

i personally want to be made aware of these kinds of issues and the info supplied here from others about when the manufacturers changed the paint etc

this is useful to me as someone who will be upgrading to a 2-3 year old 5th wheel in a few years

i dont think it is cool any of these expensive trailers are fading and delaminating etc
was not happy to learn this was going to be an issue if i want to keep my trailers more than 3-4 years

Just to make it more frustrating and confusing, this doesn't happen on every unit.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

Johnny's Journey · 07-18-2017, 08:01 PM

Rusty I'm sorry about how you feel and where thing's are going in the world today for you. I only asked a fair question. Take care and I hope the best for you.

Tbos · 07-19-2017, 09:22 AM

Rusty,
What I find odd in your case is that the problem on the front cap appears to be on 1/2 of it. Since it's not consistent it could possibly be considered a manufacturing defect. Has your dealer talked to Keystone? It's worth a try if the dealer is willing to write it up. Good luck.

2016 Passport GT 2810BHS, 2016 F350 CC DRW

Rusty · 07-19-2017, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tbos

Rusty,
What I find odd in your case is that the problem on the front cap appears to be on 1/2 of it. Since it's not consistent it could possibly be considered a manufacturing defect. Has your dealer talked to Keystone? It's worth a try if the dealer is willing to write it up. Good luck.

2016 Passport GT 2810BHS, 2016 F350 CC DRW

Yes the dealer took it to Keystone, and Keystone did the obligatory hand washing, mostly due to the time limitation. I have contacted Keystone again, but I will most likely be given the shove off scenario.

I will be getting the front cap painted and clear coated, and will work with Calgary Coachworks for a fix on the Filon sidewall and rear cap. If I were to get 3 of the 4 sides repainted I am sure that it would be more then $5,000, and that does not include the graphics!

Maybe I can get a buddy who runs a wrap business in Edmonton to wrap it with a derogatory statement?

Frank G · 07-19-2017, 10:56 AM

If I ever go through the pain of painting and clear coat, I would NEVER apply another graphic. That is just me, especially one that offers free advertising.

I asked the how much question at the Cedar Creek facility for a custom paint job (witch they offer) and was told it to be north of $9,000.00. Those are 3+ colors.

MN Blue Skies · 07-25-2017, 09:57 AM

Rusty, in June we bought a used 2013 Cougar High Country 315RES. We have the exact same ghosting pattern on the left side and the cap is faded. From reading the post it seems like we were naive in thinking that there would be some magic solution and would not require repainting. I guess we are stuck unless someone finds a fix.

It's odd that our patterns are exactly the same and it isn't a problem on the other side of the 5th wheel. That makes me think it has something to do with how the finish was applied at the factory.

I am not a technical person but I have good critical thinking skills.

Rusty · 07-30-2017, 11:47 AM

So I have talked with Calgary Coachworks, and they said painting the front cap with automotive grade finishes will be the order of the day, he said they do about 2 dozen a year. Hmmmm imagine that others out there that have had to have the same fix carried out on what some say is dust, dirt, and dew........

And for those that say it is dew and/or dirt, trust me it is NOT dust, dirt, dew or any other crap. The first pictures were taken after a few days of rain, so unless you wash and wax your unit after each rain fall spare me the talk!

Coachworks can give me the shine on the left side, however it is only a temp fix due to the poor materials used at the time of manufacture!

The front cap was waxed last Sept, so the crap materials used is only going to get worse!

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

CTufte · 07-31-2017, 07:48 PM

I have a 2015 337FLS brought in October 2014 that has been stored indoors since new and have stickers peeling on the front cap. Also had to fix both fender skirts from screws falling out. The quality on this unit compared to the 2000 Holiday Rambler I had before is a joke. You would think a unit built fifteen years later would be better not worse.

You may also like: