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Old 12-03-2013, 11:09 AM   #21
Festus2
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Ken -

I am wondering if Lippert, for example, when they design and build their RV frames, has to comply with any government regulations or whether they are built to the specifications that are set out by Keystone? When an RV carries the RVIA and any other state "safety" sticker, what does that really mean and what standards does the RV have to meet before it gets the RVIA seal of approval? I can't imagine that they have government or other safety inspectors looking at every component and stationed at Keystone's assembly plant to ensure that it meets a certain safety requirement.

Does Keystone and other RV manufacturers have to comply with certain government safety regulations? Are there minimum standards that have to be met? Do the metal frames have to meet certain specifications with respect to load bearing capacity? welds? thickness and type of steel frame? Does the RV industry regulate itself and set its own standards?

So what exactly are the safety standards when it comes to an RV? How much regulation and oversight are happening in this industry? I'm not talking about towing weights and limits but the actual construction of the unit's major structural and weight-bearing components - frame, suspension, axle, wheels and tires.

I believe that Malfar's fears about pin boxes are generally unproven and unfounded; however, he may have a legitimate concern when hearing that Transport Canada is unable to enforce any construction standards when none apparently exist. My question would then be, "Does the RV industry have construction standards that it must meet?"

For my own education, I would like to find out more factual information about this topic so if anyone can steer me in the right direction or enlighten me --- I'd appreciate hearing from you.

And like JRTJH said, I am not going to run and hide. Last time I looked, the sky is still up there. And the toll free number? Sorry JRTJH, I'm not that bored at the moment.
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Old 12-03-2013, 01:02 PM   #22
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Festus2,

For at least the last 5 years I've been trying to get my hands on a complete document from RVIA which details the requirements manufacturers must comply with to attach the RVIA sticker to the side of their products (and charge us $135+ at last purchase). All I've ever been able to find is an offer to "purchase the current guidelines" for the tidy sum of $800.

The RV technician course taught by RVIA affiliate centers "gives" each candidate for certification a copy of the guidebook, but I don't have the "luxury" of enrolling in a course in Indiana, which is the nearest I can find.

I'm sure that RVIA has some "great requirements" that much be followed, but I'm also sure that there are some that simply don't reflect "sanity" in the build process.... Take for example, the requirement to have an overhead smoke detector within 10 feet all every heat producing appliance. That's why all of us "CURSE" the smoke detector every time we use the stovetop in our RV.

I've searched the NHTSA website for pinbox failure, recreational vehicle fifth wheel failure, travel trailer frame failure and then I did a detailed search for all years of Keystone products. The only two open investigations are possible glass breakeage of shower stalls and possible undervehicle wiring problems.

There are 8 complaints that are documented: Goodyear tires, IOTA transfer switch (x3), Reese 16K hitch, Dometic refrigerator and "wheel loss on several occasions by the same operator. There also is one complaint in 2003 regarding "noxious fumes in the interior"

There are also two "service bulletins, one for "tail gater repair" and one for the "slide out supplemental breaker"

I can find no action from NHTSA regarding pinbox failure in Keystone products that has been investigated, recalled or issued a service bulletin. There is no action by TC as well.

While I can't say there is "NO" documentation regarding pinbox failure, we've had members complain of problems with welds on pinboxes. Researching the past posts on this forum, there have been issues with 2 Outbacks, 2 Cougars, Sprinter, and Copper Canyon. There were two reports included in the above problems where the owners stated they were using gooseneck adapters.

There's no way for me to do any meta-analysis with the limited information available, but if we use the "guesstimate" of half our membership (11,000) owning fifth wheels, that would be about 5500 fifth wheels with a failure of 6 pinboxes for a failure rate of about 0.001%. That calculation is HIGHLY SUSPICIOUS and probably low as there is no confirmation that half the membership owns fifth wheels nor that all the pinbox failures have been reported in the forum. So, there's little "meat" in the numbers, but I'd still not worry about looking up as Chicken Little screams.... I'd seriously be much more concerned with blown tires, wheel bearing wear, brake failure or even light bulbs burning out than with pinbox failure.

I'd wager that in February when I pull mine out of the pole barn to head to warmer weather, as cold as it will be, I'll spend just enough time under my fifth wheel pinbox to make sure it's connected to the truck and the umbilical is plugged in before we start towing. I will, however, check the tire pressure before we tow and the brakes as we're pulling out of the drive.....
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Old 12-03-2013, 04:03 PM   #23
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JRTJH -

So, let me see if I have this right ........

1) Yes, there are requirements and standards set out by the RVIA but no one knows, except a select few, exactly what these standards are.
2) The RVIA, for some reason, does not want this information to become public. Is this similar to the secrecy surrounding Keystone's closely guarded electrical and plumbing schematics?
3) The chances of any one of us having a defective pin box are slim or none.
4) Ignore all screaming by Chicken Little.
5) Come Springtime, dewinterize and head south.

I am left to wonder if the coveted RVIA sticker is held in higher esteem than the Keystone's Polar Package sticker??
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Old 12-03-2013, 04:47 PM   #24
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So, let me see if I have this right ........

1) Yes, there are requirements and standards set out by the RVIA but no one knows, except a select few, exactly what these standards are.

That's pretty much my "take" on things. I've been trying to get a copy of the RVIA requirements for years, I've got a couple of sections, but they are, at best, outdated by now. KanTC told me about a year ago that she had found a link to the entire book online at some seminar, but the link was dead when we tried it. My "best guess" is that if the general public was thoroughly familiar with the RVIA guidelines, it would make some of the service we receive "suspect" at best and for that reason, the dealerships and manufacturers don't want the information available to the general public.

2) The RVIA, for some reason, does not want this information to become public. Is this similar to the secrecy surrounding Keystone's closely guarded electrical and plumbing schematics?
I'm thinking that the answer to that is a "generally yes"

3) The chances of any one of us having a defective pin box are slim or none.
That's my take. I'd say that it's significantly less than a 1% failure rate. Probably closer to 1:>500. But I wouldn't "dare the thing to fail"

4) Ignore all screaming by Chicken Little.
Chicken who???????

5) Come Springtime, dewinterize and head south.
If I could, I wouldn't even wait until "springtime" After plowing snow today, I'm ready to head south already. However, there's two "equal votes" in that decision and the "other controlling interest" has flatly said, "NOT YET!!!" sooooooo

I am left to wonder if the coveted RVIA sticker is held in higher esteem than the Keystone's Polar Package sticker?

I'd say that both stickers are worth their weight in gold.... FOOL'S GOLD THAT IS .........
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Old 12-03-2013, 04:49 PM   #25
Bob Landry
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In my humble opinion, the RVIA sticker is irrelevant and is indicative of nothing because in spite of it being plastered on the side of the trailers, all of them leave the factory with the same problems and poor workmanship regardless of price point or manufacturer.
The Polar/Arctic stickers have been discussed here adnauseum and all that has been determined is that there is supposed to be a 2" heat duct routed so that it warms the tanks during heater operation. Some of us have never found it, others have but were unable to quantify the effectiveness of it.

All of this makes for some interesting dialogue, but the reality is, if we continue to buy these trailers, we should resolve ourselves that there is going to be a lot of ongoing repairs. It's just part of the game.
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Old 12-03-2013, 04:54 PM   #26
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Old 12-03-2013, 05:02 PM   #27
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Festus, I do not what/how/who does inspections. I am going to guess that it may involve the builder who has to use approved building methods and materials than tell or show the inspectors what they did. Thinking about the frames, Keystone would need to follow approved type, size, shape, welds etc. for the weight or style of a trailer. I could be wrong.
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