202QBWE Solar/Inverter/LiPo Build

[JRTJH]

MrKABC,

You might be overthinking it or you might not. I don't know....

My concern would be the higher voltage from the lithium charger "bleeding onto the trailer 12 volt system". Your LED lights, furnace motor and refrigerator control circuits may not be "happy with 14.6 VDC" and if you have the In-Command system, it may be damaged by that higher voltage. Then, if you add that 14.6 VDC to the entire trailer system, your current WFCO may sense the higher voltage and its output may be reduced based on it sensing the higher charge voltage from the inverter/charger.

There may well be a way to use the WFCO converter/charger to power the trailer 12 volt systems when on shore power while the inverter/charger takes over battery charging functions.

I don't see an issue when on battery power, the battery would provide the 12 VDC to the house systems and the 12 VDC to the inverter systems to power the 120 VAC trailer circuits.

I haven't seen any inverter/charger with the "DC amps out" high enough to power the trailer 12 volt systems AND still have enough wattage to charge the battery bank at the same time. I'm sure there are some that "could do it" but they would likely be well out of the price range for installation in an RV system. Some are rated "50-75 amp output" but I don't believe that's a "continuous rating" rather an intermittent momentary rating max output.

Perplexing to me, but someone else may have figured it out and have a working system that uses the current converter/charger to run the trailer 12 volt systems while isolating the inverter/charger to only supplying power to charge the battery while not increasing the "house circuits to 14.6 VDC"....

I just can't see the easy way to do both.

[MrKABC]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

MrKABC,

You might be overthinking it or you might not. I don't know....

My concern would be the higher voltage from the lithium charger "bleeding onto the trailer 12 volt system". Your LED lights, furnace motor and refrigerator control circuits may not be "happy with 14.6 VDC" and if you have the In-Command system, it may be damaged by that higher voltage. Then, if you add that 14.6 VDC to the entire trailer system, your current WFCO may sense the higher voltage and its output may be reduced based on it sensing the higher charge voltage from the inverter/charger.

There may well be a way to use the WFCO converter/charger to power the trailer 12 volt systems when on shore power while the inverter/charger takes over battery charging functions.

I don't see an issue when on battery power, the battery would provide the 12 VDC to the house systems and the 12 VDC to the inverter systems to power the 120 VAC trailer circuits.

I haven't seen any inverter/charger with the "DC amps out" high enough to power the trailer 12 volt systems AND still have enough wattage to charge the battery bank at the same time. I'm sure there are some that "could do it" but they would likely be well out of the price range for installation in an RV system. Some are rated "50-75 amp output" but I don't believe that's a "continuous rating" rather an intermittent momentary rating max output.

Perplexing to me, but someone else may have figured it out and have a working system that uses the current converter/charger to run the trailer 12 volt systems while isolating the inverter/charger to only supplying power to charge the battery while not increasing the "house circuits to 14.6 VDC"....

I just can't see the easy way to do both.

@JRTJH

My current plan is to run the WFCO off the bus bars coming from the battery. Currently, the 12v +/- is going to the distribution box on the hitch (can't say "giggy box" that is a stupid name IMO) where the stock PB Group 24 is connected.

I will tie that feed into the bus bars instead. This worked the last time I did it in my old Jayco 195 trailer and there was no issue with the 12v system. The new wrinkle this time around is the inverter - I didn't have one and have never wired one up.

I attached my "proposed" wiring diagram. The way I see it (and again, if I am wrong please correct me!!):

• 12V (Boondocking) ONLY: Battery/solar/12v systems function to power 12v systems, solar keeps battery charged as usual.
• 12v (Boondocking) with INVERTER ACTIVATED: Same as above, but with additional draw from batteries from the bus bars. Concern to me is 120VAC refrigerator needing to be disabled (Set to propane), and possibility that WFCO attempts to charge the battery since 120VAC detected (forming a loop).
• GENERATOR: Same as above, but less concern about loop since it's "external" shore power, but this loop could waste fuel due to higher draw on generator.
• SHORE POWER: Same as above but applies to excessive current draw from shore power supply.

I may need to disable the WFCO charger and connect the 12v input directly to the bus bars to still use the WFCO box to power the trailer 12v systems. Since the bus bars are "common" and can draw from battery/solar, the inverter ability to power the 12v system directly appears to be irrelevant.

@SargeW I assume that there is wiring coming from the WFCO 12vdc distribution panel into the charging "box" then out to the battery? Might be my target for a tie in.

Thank you guys for the discussion, I am learning lots (and still have puzzles to solve!).

[MrKABC]

Updated the diagram. Forgot to add the 400A Mega Fuse (it's in the Victron 3000 inverter manual), I ordered it now before running the wires.

Time to start drilling holes and running wires!

[JRTJH]

Can't help with the wiring. But the Giggy Box is named after Brad Giggy, the Keystone engineer that came up with the idea and then designed and tested it before it went into production.

[firestation12]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

MrKABC,

You might be overthinking it or you might not. I don't know....

My concern would be the higher voltage from the lithium charger "bleeding onto the trailer 12 volt system". Your LED lights, furnace motor and refrigerator control circuits may not be "happy with 14.6 VDC" and if you have the In-Command system, it may be damaged by that higher voltage. Then, if you add that 14.6 VDC to the entire trailer system, your current WFCO may sense the higher voltage and its output may be reduced based on it sensing the higher charge voltage from the inverter/charger.

There may well be a way to use the WFCO converter/charger to power the trailer 12 volt systems when on shore power while the inverter/charger takes over battery charging functions.

I don't see an issue when on battery power, the battery would provide the 12 VDC to the house systems and the 12 VDC to the inverter systems to power the 120 VAC trailer circuits.

I haven't seen any inverter/charger with the "DC amps out" high enough to power the trailer 12 volt systems AND still have enough wattage to charge the battery bank at the same time. I'm sure there are some that "could do it" but they would likely be well out of the price range for installation in an RV system. Some are rated "50-75 amp output" but I don't believe that's a "continuous rating" rather an intermittent momentary rating max output.

Perplexing to me, but someone else may have figured it out and have a working system that uses the current converter/charger to run the trailer 12 volt systems while isolating the inverter/charger to only supplying power to charge the battery while not increasing the "house circuits to 14.6 VDC"....

I just can't see the easy way to do both.

I experienced multiple failures of LED ceiling puck lights when they were exposed to 14.6 volts from the Renogy solar controller set to default lithium charging. After changing the default bulk parameters to 13.8 volts, the failures stopped. Only time will tell if the OP’s research and planning pays off. Heck even Musk broke a few things on the way to sucess.

[seanrmz]

I did just that with the cougar converter charger, I removed it. I took all the 12v wiring and installed a Blue Sea fuse block. I fused all the rigs wiring into it.
https://www.bluesea.com/products/502..._Bus_and_Cover

I then hooked up the fuse block to one of my Victron lynx distributers and fuse it accordingly.

I then set the 12v out from my Victron multi plus 2 to 13.8v and everything works like a charm


sean

Originally Posted by MrKABC

@JRTJH

My current plan is to run the WFCO off the bus bars coming from the battery. Currently, the 12v +/- is going to the distribution box on the hitch (can't say "giggy box" that is a stupid name IMO) where the stock PB Group 24 is connected.

I will tie that feed into the bus bars instead. This worked the last time I did it in my old Jayco 195 trailer and there was no issue with the 12v system. The new wrinkle this time around is the inverter - I didn't have one and have never wired one up.

I attached my "proposed" wiring diagram. The way I see it (and again, if I am wrong please correct me!!):

• 12V (Boondocking) ONLY: Battery/solar/12v systems function to power 12v systems, solar keeps battery charged as usual.
• 12v (Boondocking) with INVERTER ACTIVATED: Same as above, but with additional draw from batteries from the bus bars. Concern to me is 120VAC refrigerator needing to be disabled (Set to propane), and possibility that WFCO attempts to charge the battery since 120VAC detected (forming a loop).
• GENERATOR: Same as above, but less concern about loop since it's "external" shore power, but this loop could waste fuel due to higher draw on generator.
• SHORE POWER: Same as above but applies to excessive current draw from shore power supply.

I may need to disable the WFCO charger and connect the 12v input directly to the bus bars to still use the WFCO box to power the trailer 12v systems. Since the bus bars are "common" and can draw from battery/solar, the inverter ability to power the 12v system directly appears to be irrelevant.

@SargeW I assume that there is wiring coming from the WFCO 12vdc distribution panel into the charging "box" then out to the battery? Might be my target for a tie in.

Thank you guys for the discussion, I am learning lots (and still have puzzles to solve!).

[upontheridge]

MRKABC Were you able to confirm whether the Keystone OEM panel was a 12- or 24-volt panel? What brand and voltage panel did you go with? Would be interested in why you chose to connect the panels in Series vs Parallel.

Originally Posted by MrKABC

2022 202QBWE with the Solar 200i package:

• Replaced OEM Victron 75/15 with 100/50
• Added 2 more 200w solar panels in series to OEM 200w

That's where I am at so far. Still running the OEM group 24 wet lead/acid batter but will be adding the following parts:

• Battle Born LiPo GC2 100Ah (3)
• Victron BMV712 shunt/monitor
• Blue Sea 200A fuse
• Victron Multiplus300VA Inverter/Txfer switch

Before I run more wires, set up the bus bars and such I wanted input from those more experienced than me to advise me as to where would be the best place to put the shunt, fuse, inverter, and trailer cutoff switch.

I know the on/off switch goes on the positive side from the battery, and the shunt on the negative side, but not sure how to do this in a multi-battery setup?

Attaching the diagram I have so far, with the remaining items in the "Add Items" red box.

Any help would be appreciated!

[MrKABC]

Originally Posted by upontheridge

MRKABC Were you able to confirm whether the Keystone OEM panel was a 12- or 24-volt panel? What brand and voltage panel did you go with? Would be interested in why you chose to connect the panels in Series vs Parallel.

Hello @upontheridge! I responded via PM, but for all I am getting about 28v unloaded per panel.

I connected the panels in series in order to keep the voltage HIGH and current LOW so as not to overheat the OEM 10 gauge wiring that goes to the roof port from the MPPT controller. I'm practically limited to this setup with three panels since my MPPT maxes out at 100v, and I can't support a fourth panel in series.

To add one more panel I plan to place two panels in parallel, and wire that combo in series to the single roof port.

Unfortunately, to add more than that I will need another roof port, wiring, and MPPT controller.

I don't think 600w is going to be enough solar power to support my 3000w inverter function - looks like I will need to get creative. Coming attractions I suppose...

In the meantime, my battery bank install is moving right along!

• Bus bars, BMV712 shunt, Blue Sea fuse is in
• Inverter mounted. Romex 10/2 is now going from shore power to inlet
• Romex 10/2 output from inverter into WFCO box complete
• Solar panel disconnect switch installed

Tomorrow I complete the battery wiring and 12v inverter wiring. Then to start the test!!!!

After that, CAT 5 wiring runs for inverter and BMV control panels need to be fished through the ceiling to the battery compartment. Then to permanently mount the batteries.

Wish me luck!

[MrKABC]

Victron Multiplus 3000 and all three Battle Borns are in and up and running!

Inverter works great. Microwave and all wall outlets function. The refrigerator in 110v mode does work but not for long at that power draw! Good thing it's propane powered. I don't have a soft start capacitor yet so holding off on testing the AC.

Inverter to shore power switchover is seamless, and it charges my battery bank like a beast! I set my MPPT to manual "7" but will follow Battle Born recommendations for manual settings. So far so good!

[MrKABC]

Victron Multiplus and controller install is complete! Control and BMV712 gauge are now next to thermostat.

WFCO box is now minus its built in charger, since the Multiplus now does charging duty. No adverse effects noted by running the WFCO 12v off the output of the Multiplus.

This setup works like a charm! Seamless transition from shore power to inverter. I'm really pleased by how this turned out.

I'm still not happy with the MPPT being located at the front of the trailer and running its output back to the WFCO/bus bars since there is a lot of resistance in a 6g wire that long but that's a project for another day.

[SargeW]

Nice clean install, looks great!

[MrKABC]

Originally Posted by SargeW

Nice clean install, looks great!

All done! It's like nothing was ever disturbed.

Taking the rig out tomorrow, will report back as to how things worked out!

[MrKABC]

STATUS REPORT:

Desert trip complete! Boondocking the entire time.

SOLAR PANELS:
I hate to admit I'm a bit disappointed here. As I said earlier in this thread, I now have a total of 600w (3x 200w panels in series) worth of solar panels and a Victron 100/50 MPPT.

Best I could get was 225w, and that's in full desert sun. (screen shot) I even cleaned the panels before the trip to be sure I was getting the full amount. The MPPT is set according to Battle Born's specs - not just the generic LiPo "#7" setting.

To the solar techies - is this all I can expect out of the panels? While I didn't expect 600w, I was hoping for something in the low 400 range to help minimize my generator usage.

[seanrmz]

Morning, I too had the same disappointment as you. I installed 980w of solar and the max I ever seen was 780w. It was during mid summer. As we approach the end of the summer and into the fall the axis of the sun will drop. So we will see less watts produced.

I will be adding more solar to compensate and try to maximize the wattage to charge up my 400ah bank on the grey days. I was able to get 2 to 3 days with daily usage. I would have to pull out my small 2000w gen to help out for a few hours.On the really hot days I would run the gen with the victron assist mode to help and that was fine, But our rigs are power hungry especially if we are running a\c for a few cycles and Starlink. We now turn it off during the night to save some power.

With my first summer using our solar setup. I now know with going over our consumption I am on that balance point of not having enough solar to be 100% independent. I will add 450w more to off set it so we can use the gen less.

have a great day


sean

Originally Posted by MrKABC

STATUS REPORT:

Desert trip complete! Boondocking the entire time.

SOLAR PANELS:
I hate to admit I'm a bit disappointed here. As I said earlier in this thread, I now have a total of 600w (3x 200w panels in series) worth of solar panels and a Victron 100/50 MPPT.

Best I could get was 225w, and that's in full desert sun. (screen shot) I even cleaned the panels before the trip to be sure I was getting the full amount. The MPPT is set according to Battle Born's specs - not just the generic LiPo "#7" setting.

To the solar techies - is this all I can expect out of the panels? While I didn't expect 600w, I was hoping for something in the low 400 range to help minimize my generator usage.

[JRTJH]

I have to ask, not in a negative way, but for my own edification:

When does the balance between dollars invested and benefit achieved occur ???

With the dollars invested in "high output solar production", when (or how long) will it be, before any "savings" or "benefit for dollars spent" occur ???

Doesn't gasoline, even at its current cost, produce power at levels needed to support the trailer's needs, for less investment in equipment, potentially for the entire life of the trailer ?

You can run a generator for a long, long time to offset the cost of a "high power solar system"...

Another way to ask, I suppose, would be, "Is there a financial advantage to the investment?"

[SargeW]

I have experienced the same thing with my 400 watts of solar. And as another wild card, my rig is the "Passport GT" model. The reason that is significant is that the roof is dome shaped and one panel is on each side of the dome. That means that the panels actually are angled away from each other. In the peak of summer when the sun is high, the difference is not as dramatic. But this time of year the sun is much lower in the sky and I usually get sun on one panel at a time. I may see 70-80 watts at any one time.

I agree with John that cost to value ratio is a consideration. A buddy of mine is the developer of a product that will tilt your panels via a 12 volt lift to angel them at the sun. He is having great results and now makes them for sale. It is not what I would call cheap to buy, but neither is more panels and batteries.

I am going to call him up and get some more info on the system. If I could get satisfactory voltage out of the panels that I have, it may be sufficient for my needs.

[seanrmz]

Well your totally right, where do we draw the line. Well for my case, I do get away with installation fee's. I did all the work my self and shopped around for the best deals. Where I saved big was the inverter, batteries and the solar panels. Suntan solar has the best deals on them solar panels.

Now why?

The biggest reason for me to go with my solar is my wife and I travel all over the eastern Canadien show dogs competitions from the month of Mai to October, Yes we can use generators but there is times and places where we can't use them. Generally 9am to 6pm gen time only when we are aloud to use it. Summers here are hot and humid and with 3 standard poodles in the coach they need grooming after 6pm when we win , but they still need a good groom for the next show day and after a show day.. I like to sleep in comfort.
"benefit for dollars spent" occur ???
Happy wife happy life is my way of living.

We also travel from Montreal to FloridaI take my time and takes me 3 days of travel so we need to camp 2 or 3 night in a Cracker Barrel (not sure a generator would be liked by others) And we are looking to expand our location in the future, Texas, and Mexico for the winter. We can expand our locations of travel with out any guessing.


sean

Originally Posted by JRTJH

I have to ask, not in a negative way, but for my own edification:

When does the balance between dollars invested and benefit achieved occur ???

With the dollars invested in "high output solar production", when (or how long) will it be, before any "savings" or "benefit for dollars spent" occur ???

Doesn't gasoline, even at its current cost, produce power at levels needed to support the trailer's needs, for less investment in equipment, potentially for the entire life of the trailer ?

You can run a generator for a long, long time to offset the cost of a "high power solar system"...

Another way to ask, I suppose, would be, "Is there a financial advantage to the investment?"

[seanrmz]

I have a similar issue on my Cougar, the roof is slanted so one of my panels is always tilled the wrong way. I did purchase a kit so I can slant it up. Wow it mad a huge difference.

sorry I never remember how to upload a picture to the forum.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/i6vgDY6UP1MkAdmd6

Originally Posted by SargeW

I have experienced the same thing with my 400 watts of solar. And as another wild card, my rig is the "Passport GT" model. The reason that is significant is that the roof is dome shaped and one panel is on each side of the dome. That means that the panels actually are angled away from each other. In the peak of summer when the sun is high, the difference is not as dramatic. But this time of year the sun is much lower in the sky and I usually get sun on one panel at a time. I may see 70-80 watts at any one time.

I agree with John that cost to value ratio is a consideration. A buddy of mine is the developer of a product that will tilt your panels via a 12 volt lift to angel them at the sun. He is having great results and now makes them for sale. It is not what I would call cheap to buy, but neither is more panels and batteries.

I am going to call him up and get some more info on the system. If I could get satisfactory voltage out of the panels that I have, it may be sufficient for my needs.

[firestation12]

Originally Posted by seanrmz

Morning, I too had the same disappointment as you. I installed 980w of solar and the max I ever seen was 780w. It was during mid summer. As we approach the end of the summer and into the fall the axis of the sun will drop. So we will see less watts produced.

I will be adding more solar to compensate and try to maximize the wattage to charge up my 400ah bank on the grey days. I was able to get 2 to 3 days with daily usage. I would have to pull out my small 2000w gen to help out for a few hours.On the really hot days I would run the gen with the victron assist mode to help and that was fine, But our rigs are power hungry especially if we are running a\c for a few cycles and Starlink. We now turn it off during the night to save some power.

With my first summer using our solar setup. I now know with going over our consumption I am on that balance point of not having enough solar to be 100% independent. I will add 450w more to off set it so we can use the gen less.

have a great day


sean

My experience with my home’s 10kw panel residential system and my camper’s 640watt (2X320) panels, is that I’ve never achieved better than 75% output of the total panel rating. In the summer, this due in large part to the loss of efficiency due to heat, and in winter due to sun angle and shortened daylight hours. I believe this is the case with most solar arrays. Sean your results of 780 out of 980, is what I would have predicted.

[MrKABC]

Originally Posted by firestation12

My experience with my home’s 10kw panel residential system and my camper’s 640watt
(2X320) panels, is that I’ve never achieved better than 75% output of the total panel rating. In the summer, this due in large part to the loss of efficiency due to heat, and in winter due to sun angle and shortened daylight hours. I believe this is the case with most solar arrays. Sean your results of 780 out of 980, is what I would have predicted.

Maybe I should have gotten 320w panels instead of the 200w ones? I have enough roof space to add 3 more panels, then I'm done. 6 panels x 200w = 1200 in theory, using my achieved amount of 74w/panel = 444w.

As @JRTJH says, where should I draw the line? I'd need a second MPPT, roof port, wiring as well as the three panels. For only 444w that seems like a losing proposition.

I am thinking of adding a fourth panel, and in order to continue to use my existing 100/50 MPPT wiring 2 panels serial and then the two groups in parallel to keep the voltage down. (See diagram). I have also ordered THIS beast:

https://www.amazon.com/Photovoltaic-...C4N7HW24&psc=1

And plan to test my panels to be sure they are functioning as they should.

What do you all think?