400I Solarflex system not equipped properly by Keystone

[SargeW]

First the conclusion:

The $5100 Solar Flex 400I installed by Keystone at the factory is not configured to operate correctly.

The story:
I do not often dry camp, but if I do it is usually at the beach or in the mountains. The Solar system was a nice add when buying the new trailer, as it opened up so other options for camping. I have spent 2 long weekends dry camping in the last month, and both times the solar system was a bit disappointing. I admit to not being a solar expert (but boy am I learning). Both times we experienced overcast conditions for most of the morning before getting bright sun on the panels.

Both times camping after using the solar system to run the 12 volt refer, and power the 12 volt TV for a few hours, I found the solar state of charge pretty low the next morning. I purchased a Honda EU2200i generator just for the purpose of battery charging. Both times, it seemed like it took several hours, 3-5 hours to bring the battery bank back to just a 60% charge. Not too impressive, considering that I have always heard that one of Lithium batteries big advantages was the ability to recharge quickly do to lower internal resistance. We have 2 Dragonfly Lithium batteries with a Victron charge controller and Victron Smart Shunt.

After a lot of research, I centered on the WFCO WF-9855-AD converter Keystone installed to handle the charging duties in the trailer. The converter is a "Smart" converter when properly set up. The features of the converter includes an "Auto Detect" function that detects the kind of batteries that it is charging, and adjusts the charge voltage to that particular battery chemistry.

I read that info months ago when I went searching the rig for the battery charger when I learned that the on board Xantrex Inverter was not the model with it's own built in charger. Naturally I assumed (1st mistake) that the converter would see my lithium batteries and adjust appropriately.

Since I didn't dry camp much, I noted that the batteries would usually be charged when I randomly checked the battery health with the Victron Connect app on my phone. Then when dry camping I began to notice that the battery voltages were not what I would expect them to be. I was seeing a charge voltage of 13.2 to 13.4 volts. Great for lead acid batteries (wet cells) but not great for lithium's.

I called WFCO customer service and talked to a nice rep that asked me a few questions about my converter (that is buried back behind the electrical power center and not easily accessed.) Fortunately I took pictures of it for future reference. After sending her the pics and answering a few questions I learned that my converter needs a firmware update to enable it to switch to Lithium charging, 14.4 to 14.6 volts while in bulk charging mode. So at that point I realized that my converter has NEVER been able to fully charge my batteries while on shore or generator power.

She had me look at the converter pics for a label stating a firmware version. If it said version 1.17, or did not have a firmware label, it had the old firmware version. The new firmware is version 1.21. I had no label, so the old firmware. There is another way to check if your charger is charging on Lithium or lead acid mode. If you can get to your converter and look in the front where the fan is, you would see an LED light while it running. If the light is green, it's lead acid mode. If it's a blue LED, it's in lithium mode. My light was green.

WFCO is updating my firmware for free, and paying for shipping both ways to them in Elkhart, IN. The downside is that I will be without the RV for 3-4 weeks.

If this was installed in an RV using lead acid batteries, it would be fine. But those $2700 Lithium Dragonfly batteries (Battleborn) don't like getting the lower voltage charging.

I called Battleborn while searching down the lower voltage charging. The tech I spoke to said that low voltage charging can permanently damage the batteries. I won't know until I get the converter updated as to weather the batteries have sustained damage. If so, I will be having a pointed discussion with Keystone.

If you have a solar system and have lithium batteries, it will be well worth the time to find out how they are being charged. WFCO customer service was very helpful, and can be reached at

Phone (574) 294-8997 or (877) 294-8997 toll-free

Office Hours 7 am – 4 pm EST (M – F, closed holidays)

Fax (574) 294-8698

www.wfcoelectronics.com

[Cheesehead4Life]

Originally Posted by SargeW

Both times, it seemed like it took several hours, 3-5 hours to bring the battery bank back to just a 60% charge. Not too impressive, considering that I have always heard that one of Lithium batteries big advantages was the ability to recharge quickly do to lower internal resistance. We have 2 Dragonfly Lithium batteries with a Victron charge controller and Victron Smart Shunt.

After a lot of research, I centered on the WFCO WF-9855-AD converter Keystone installed to handle the charging duties in the trailer. The converter is a "Smart" converter when properly set up. The features of the converter includes an "Auto Detect" function that detects the kind of batteries that it is charging, and adjusts the charge voltage to that particular battery chemistry.

Since I didn't dry camp much, I noted that the batteries would usually be charged when I randomly checked the battery health with the Victron Connect app on my phone. Then when dry camping I began to notice that the battery voltages were not what I would expect them to be. I was seeing a charge voltage of 13.2 to 13.4 volts. Great for lead acid batteries (wet cells) but not great for lithium's.

I called WFCO customer service and talked to a nice rep that asked me a few questions about my converter (that is buried back behind the electrical power center and not easily accessed.) Fortunately I took pictures of it for future reference. After sending her the pics and answering a few questions I learned that my converter needs a firmware update to enable it to switch to Lithium charging, 14.4 to 14.6 volts while in bulk charging mode. So at that point I realized that my converter has NEVER been able to fully charge my batteries while on shore or generator power.

WFCO is updating my firmware for free, and paying for shipping both ways to them in Elkhart, IN. The downside is that I will be without the RV for 3-4 weeks.

Hey Sarge.

The thing about LiFePo charging faster is that they can ACCEPT a faster charge. It will still be dependent on the charger itself. That converter/charger is 55 amp so that's the most that is going into the battery, and that is IF there is no other 12v loads taking away from that. I don't know the capacity of your batteries, but if they are a total of 200Ah for example, the basic math on getting a full charge from 0 to 100% would be the 200Ah divided by 55a which would be about 3.6 hours. And with that charger being stuck on lead acid it would be slower and would not get your batteries past about 80% due to being a lesser voltage than needed by the
LiFePo batteries for a full charge.

With that said, you may get some benefit out of watching the below youtube video (with a WFCO tech). One of the main points I want to make is don't necessarily assume the new firmware will have it fixed the second you plug it in. It will still go into sensing mode, possible for several cycles.

https://youtu.be/f7MA5lKMf9A?si=tx_1K_8Ec5UEhpaP

[peanut]

When I got our 24RDS last fall I googled and youtube'd the WFCO auto detect converters and saw and read a lot of complaints about it not working very well. I pulled mine and replaced it with a converter that has a dip switch that I can use to select lead acid or lithium. A better converter, IMO.

I must add that every WFCO converter I have ever had - several boats and another RV - were always problematic for me. I ended up replacing every one of them.

[SargeW]

Originally Posted by Cheesehead4Life

Hey Sarge.

The thing about LiFePo charging faster is that they can ACCEPT a faster charge. It will still be dependent on the charger itself. That converter/charger is 55 amp so that's the most that is going into the battery, and that is IF there is no other 12v loads taking away from that. I don't know the capacity of your batteries, but if they are a total of 200Ah for example, the basic math on getting a full charge from 0 to 100% would be the 200Ah divided by 55a which would be about 3.6 hours. And with that charger being stuck on lead acid it would be slower and would not get your batteries past about 80% due to being a lesser voltage than needed by the
LiFePo batteries for a full charge.

With that said, you may get some benefit out of watching the below youtube video (with a WFCO tech). One of the main points I want to make is don't necessarily assume the new firmware will have it fixed the second you plug it in. It will still go into sensing mode, possible for several cycles.

https://youtu.be/f7MA5lKMf9A?si=tx_1K_8Ec5UEhpaP

Thanks Bryan, that's a good video. I saw that one and several others from WFCO as well as Battleborn and Victron when I was researching the slow charge. My two 100 AH batteries are getting some charge, just painfully slow when using shore or generator power. When I unplugged and drove the 4 hours back home, the batteries were fully charged by the on board solar by the time I got home.

I don't believe that the new firmware will be an instant fix, but it will give them a chance to reach a fully charged state in LI mode. I do admit to a personal quirk that everything on the rig must work as designed. Either that or I will fix it, or break it. Then I will replace it

[SargeW]

Originally Posted by peanut

When I got our 24RDS last fall I googled and youtube'd the WFCO auto detect converters and saw and read a lot of complaints about it not working very well. I pulled mine and replaced it with a converter that has a dip switch that I can use to select lead acid or lithium. A better converter, IMO.

I must add that every WFCO converter I have ever had - several boats and another RV - were always problematic for me. I ended up replacing every one of them.

Thanks Peanut. This is my first WFCO converter/charger. My last several RV's have had Magnum Inverter/Chargers that have always were fairly bullet proof. If this fix doesn't solve the issue, I may just rip it all out and replace the Inverter and Converter

[Cheesehead4Life]

Originally Posted by SargeW

I do admit to a personal quirk that everything on the rig must work as designed. Either that or I will fix it, or break it. Then I will replace it

Lol. Sounds like me. While a lot of people spend a lot of time fixing things, I spend even more time finding things to fix before they even break. I know you can relate.

[SargeW]

Yep, that's me too. But actually I have saved a ton of money by doing the fix before it gets worse. As long as you are willing to get dirty, there is money and satisfaction to be gained.

[MrKABC]

Subscribed to this thread! I have the WFCO WF-8955-AD (30A panel) that is supposed to be auto-detecting like yours. I have 3 Battle Born Li-Po batteries, will be converting over from that stock Group 24 wet battery that the trailer came with.

Fascinating stuff, thanks for your detective work. I'm still learning about inverters, would getting an inverter/auto transfer switch take over the 12v charging from the panel?

[SargeW]

An Inverter with a built in charger would take over the charging from the converter.

A transfer switch simply chooses what ever load you select as your main power source. Like between shore and generator power. An inverter can handle the charging duties as long as it is set up for it. My Xantrex is an Inverter only, and does not incorporate an on board charger. What ever device you use to charge the lithium batteries must have a circuit for LI charging.

My current converter didn't have the firmware to recognize the LI profile over the LA (lead acid) profile. When my converter is updated, they will set the charger to only charge LI batteries as I will not be switching back to lead acid.

[SargeW]

I heard back from WFCO today. My converter is updated with the new firmware, and a jumper has been installed to only charge in LI mode. It is on the way back via UPS from Indiana.

Hopefully this will be the magic bullet to give the batteries a chance to charge at a higher needed voltage. When I first start checking into this mess I also went into the Victron profiles. I found that the Smart Charger and the Shunt were both configured to charge lead acid batteries, so the lithium's never had a chance at full voltage, regardless of how long they were on the charger.

Seems pretty disappointing that the factory KNEW this rig was being delivered with the Solarflex 400 and two LI batteries. But yet whoever set up the system either didn't bother looking, or didn't care.

[Raptor Dave]

Originally Posted by SargeW

Seems pretty disappointing that the factory KNEW this rig was being delivered with the Solarflex 400 and two LI batteries. But yet whoever set up the system either didn't bother looking, or didn't care.

This seems to be the norm in the RV production industry.
PDI is still non existent even tho all these larger companies claim they're going to fix that part of their delivery process.
It's shameful for what is being paid for these brand new rigs.

GL with ordeal and hope it comes out in your favor.

[SargeW]

My last rig, a Tiffin motorhome had pretty good quality, and the company was very responsive. But that was back in 2017 when the rig was new. Now days Tiffin has been bought by Thor, and the business model has changed dramatically.

They were the last major family owned manufacturer, but it's all history now.

[flybouy]

It seems to me that the "business model" has changed for a lot of businesses post covid-19. Where I live there were several local farms with"roadside produce stands". Most have closed up, retired and some sold their land. Several posted locally that the lack of available labor was the cause.

Seems to me like there's fewer cashiers in stores, fewer bank tellers, and less and less family owned businesses. It used to be Amazon Prime delivery was one day or less here. Now, more often then not, an item may list delivery as "today, or 1 day" will be 2 days after its purchased. I've bought stuff that when the "delivery update" is sent and I track it on their map I'll see it's "2 stops away", literally less than 1/2 mile away. Then an hour later I get the "sorry there was a delay, maybe it'll be delivered tomorrow ". The irony is they have to drive past my house to get back on the highway! My guess is they are limiting their time (eliminating overtime) to reduce costs.

My point is that I don't expect the RV industry to improve any time soon. It's sad to think where this "new world" of commerce will land in the future.

[4kids2dogs&RV]

Originally Posted by SargeW

I heard back from WFCO today. My converter is updated with the new firmware, and a jumper has been installed to only charge in LI mode. It is on the way back via UPS from Indiana.



Hopefully this will be the magic bullet to give the batteries a chance to charge at a higher needed voltage. When I first start checking into this mess I also went into the Victron profiles. I found that the Smart Charger and the Shunt were both configured to charge lead acid batteries, so the lithium's never had a chance at full voltage, regardless of how long they were on the charger.



Seems pretty disappointing that the factory KNEW this rig was being delivered with the Solarflex 400 and two LI batteries. But yet whoever set up the system either didn't bother looking, or didn't care.

Good deal, looking forward to your post install update.
My battery settings were also on FLA while Deagonfliys were factory installed.
Now that it's finally cooling of here, I may crawl into the basement to check my converter.

[SargeW]

It would definetly be worth it. If there is a sticker on it that says "Firmware 2.1" that is the new update. Anything else, or no sticker is the older version.

I do give them credit for turning it around in 2 days. The shipping is slow, but they got it done.

[MrKABC]

Originally Posted by SargeW

It would definetly be worth it. If there is a sticker on it that says "Firmware 2.1" that is the new update. Anything else, or no sticker is the older version.

I do give them credit for turning it around in 2 days. The shipping is slow, but they got it done.

Noting this when I switch over from PB to LI batteries. My WFCO will go in the crapper in favor of a Progressive Dynamics if it doesn't work. We shall see.

[SargeW]

Now the resolution: IT APPEARS FOR NOW THAT THE SITUATION HAD BEEN FIXED

The converter came back from WFCO with the promise from their tech support that the new firmware was installed, and it was switched to LI mode charging only.

I put it in this morning, which was kind of a PITA because of the mess of wires behind the electric panel where the converter lives. But it probably took about 30 minutes to hook back up. Prior to starting the reinstall I drew the batteries down to a 60% state of charge (SOC) by running a 1500 watt heat gun with the battery switch turned on and the Giggy box on. The switch for the solar panels is off.

I hooked up the Honda 2200i Generator as the charging source. Charging the battery bank as quickly as possible while dry camping is what started this whole process. So I wanted to see it work. I hooked up the converter to the power center, but left the power center removed so I could see the converter.

I plugged the shore cord into the Honda and waited for it to connect through the Surge Guard. When it hooked up everything in the rig started to come to life, Lights, a fan, and appliance displays. No big draws other than the converter.

I put my amp meter on the negative battery cable and it showed an amp charge of 42.6 amps (the same as the Victron Shunt app). Switching to DC voltage setting and putting the probes on the inputs from the converter in the power center it showed a voltage of 14.4 volts (pre-firmware the max voltage was 13.6 volts). And going back to the converter, the blue interior LED light was illuminated, signifying a Lithium (LI) state of charge.

The Honda was on ECO throttle, and was running at 1/3 speed, or 770 watts per the Honda generator app on my phone. I checked the SOC on the Victron Shunt app after 60 minutes of run time. The SOC had increased from 60 to 84% in one hour. I had to shut down and leave for an appointment, so I stopped the Honda and let it sit for about 3 hours while I was gone. The SOC had dropped to 80% while I was away.

I returned and put the Honda back in line and resumed charging. After one more hour the SOC had increased to 98%. The amps into the battery had dropped to 18 amps, and were steadily dropping. The Honda was at a minimum idle of 70 watts. Within 5 minutes the SOC was 100%, and the battery voltage was sitting at 14.5 volts.

So I am going to call this one a win! The converter is acting like it is supposed to, the batteries and charging quickly, and the Honda is handling it all easily.

Here are some pics of the process.

[Cheesehead4Life]

Great to hear. Never a doubt, right? Lol

[SargeW]

Lots actually! It seemed a little too easy to explain at the start. I was apprehensive at the start, but figured what the heck, I'll take a chance. Surprised when everything suddenly worked as designed.

Not sure who messed this up, WFCO for the firmware not being up to date, or Keystone for ignoring the fact that the Solar controller and shunt couldn't be set up properly because they set the parameters to lead acid

[4kids2dogs&RV]

Originally Posted by SargeW

Now the resolution: IT APPEARS FOR NOW THAT THE SITUATION HAD BEEN FIXED

That's great news, appreciate the follow-up and detailed info.
I have yet to check my converter for firmware version. Still in the upper 90s here in the afternoons and I'm not looking forward to emptying my basement storage to get to it.