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Old 08-17-2018, 08:30 PM   #21
notanlines
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Might I remind members that putting a fire extinguisher in the bunkhouse area needs to be thought over carefully.. if you think of this logically the idea doesn’t take proper form. In the middle of the night you only want one thing: everyone OUT and then decide if we need to put out the fire or call Geico. I recommend an extra extinguisher in the main living area, better quality than furnished.
And you, op, install that new quality window on your dime and sleep knowing you did the right thing.
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Old 08-20-2018, 05:31 AM   #22
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They called back yesterday after my email and asked for photos of the windows, which I sent. They just called again this morning asking about the entryway to the bunkhouse, and is it a door or curtain and asked for pictures of it. You might be right on with what they come back with next.
I'm ready for them if they try to go that route.
Sure enough, you called it. Keystone's official position is that since there is a curtain, it's one room. Therefore they believe the current window to be sufficient.

Now think about that for a second. This trailer is 37 feet long. It is designed to sleep 6 in the bunkhouse. There is only 1 escape window for the whole trailer, and it is the very front window of the front bedroom. Keystone is ok with that and approves of it.

I'm not dropping it yet, because even though there is no door to the bunkhouse, there IS one to the bedroom. So the whole rest of the trailer still only has one path to escape. Even using their technical distinction, the trailer still does not meet NFPA.
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Old 08-20-2018, 06:01 AM   #23
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Sure enough, you called it. Keystone's official position is that since there is a curtain, it's one room. Therefore they believe the current window to be sufficient.

Now think about that for a second. This trailer is 37 feet long. It is designed to sleep 6 in the bunkhouse. There is only 1 escape window for the whole trailer, and it is the very front window of the front bedroom. Keystone is ok with that and approves of it.

I'm not dropping it yet, because even though there is no door to the bunkhouse, there IS one to the bedroom. So the whole rest of the trailer still only has one path to escape. Even using their technical distinction, the trailer still does not meet NFPA.
Stick with it, I believe you have a valid case.Our 32' 5er has two windows, one in the bedroom at the head of the bed, and one in the dining area (Large) just over the table.
In addition we have a mid entry and all fire risk appliances are beyond both sleeping areas, door being best option.
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Old 08-20-2018, 08:30 AM   #24
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What is your ultimate goal? You'll NEVER change the rv industry. Do you want a different rv? Don't think they'll add an outside door to your rv. Best case is they add an escape window in the bunk room, which I'd do on my dime & save a lot of aggravation. Again, just curious, what do you expect to gain from all this? Reading this a song keeps coming to mind
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Old 08-20-2018, 09:07 AM   #25
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I want them to put in an exit window. If there is not an exit window that fits my bunkhouse, I want them to either make one that fits or modify the opening to fit one.
I know, little guy against the big company, and maybe I can't change anything. But they want me to just drop it, and I'm not willing to do that quite yet.
It goes in next week to get a couple other things fixed, and I'll be getting a quote from the dealership to figure out the window one was or another. I'm giving Keystone the chance to do the right thing between now and then.
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Old 08-20-2018, 09:08 AM   #26
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I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but there's more to fire safety than what's written in a regulation and what's "complied with" by a manufacturer.

Being critically realistic, I can't recall ever meeting a sleepy 5 year old that had the ability to wake up from a sound sleep, make a determination of whether to locate a fire extinguisher to use to cool the passage to the exit door or whether to choose to ignore the extinguisher and operate a fire escape window and exit the trailer... Most 5 year olds that I've known, when awakened from sleep, whine, cry out for "Mommy", roll over and try to assume a fetal position.

I'm not suggesting kids are helpless, but rather, all the children I've known, do not have the skill set or critical thinking capacity to "wake from a deep sleep, make objective decisions and correctly execute egress from a burning building. Hell, most of the adults I know would have problems with making the correct decisions when awakening from a "dead sleep". Many, quite frankly, when faced with that kind of situation, wouldn't even remember if they were married or even if they have kids that are sleeping a few feet away. Making all kinds of "well orchestrated, complex plans", including extinguishers, roll out ladders, two or more escape routes (no time or skill set to make the decision for most kids) just complicates things and is likely to add to the confusion, delaying making the right decisions in an emergency.

Realistically, it's up to mom and/or dad to leave their bed in the other end of the trailer and move to their kids, guide them or take them out of the trailer. It really won't much matter in the 2 or 3 minutes, whether you kick out the existing window or "fiddle with that damned quick lock handle" on an "approved exit window...

As an example, we have 4 exit windows in our fifth wheel. Two in the kitchen area, one next to the sofa/bed in the main cabin and one in the bedroom up front. Honestly, the only way through that bedroom exit window is head first. There's no way to position yourself on a blank wall to get your feet out the window while your butt "levitates" in thin air until you're positioned to fall through to safety... Trying to jump head first and take a 9 or 10 foot fall ??? I'm here to assure you, my DW will be fighting her way to the exit door at the foot of the stairs rather than even attempting the body positions to get through the escape window.

And, to illustrate the complexity some add to the mix, there's a year old thread on this forum, where one member details how he drilled holes in the opening arm that levers the windows open, to lock them with a ring type device so they won't unlock inadvertently and fall out when towing. That added step to "lock the windows closed" whether it's permanently or just adding another step, is something a 5 year old won't comprehend at "0 dark 30" when a screeching alarm wakes them from a sound sleep....

No this isn't intended to instill a defeatist, don't worry about it, all is lost attitude, rather it's to illustrate that even if someone adds an exit window or two or three extra windows in a trailer, expecting a 5 year old to use it in the dead of night, waking from a dead sleep, doesn't make it happen. Hopefully none of us will ever have to face those kinds of emergency decisions while camping, but all these "calmly thought out plans" at least in my experiences, don't actually get carried out when the stuff hits the fan.

Attempting to "force a win against Keystone" won't make things any safer in an emergency. Where's the real priority and what's really important?
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Old 08-20-2018, 09:18 AM   #27
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All the points above are well taken. What remains still though, is at the moment there isnt even a way to make an opening large enough to fit a person through to the bunkhouse. So at the moment if the fridge or stove catches fire, for example, and blocks the opening to the bunkhouse, the only way out is to try to kick out the window with the frame. There's no way to practice opening the window and escaping when that's the only available plan.
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Old 08-20-2018, 10:27 AM   #28
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Here's the long and the short of it to me;

The trailer is designed as it is and apparently meets any RVIA or safety measures imposed on that type of trailer configuration. You disagree because you feel that there should be an exit where there are bunks and I suppose you will have kids there. Here's the problem;

YOU walked through the unit and YOU bought that unit because you liked the floorplan....which includes the windows. Belatedly you decided you would like a fire exit near the bunks, and to me, are trying to think of ways to force Keystone to rectify your oversight. Many on the forum have trailers they wish came with an outdoor kitchen, bigger fridge, more ACs, etc. etc. etc. I've not heard of anyone on here trying to force Keystone to pay to reconfigure their trailer because they wanted more on it than it came with after the fact.

Do I think it would be a good idea to have that exit near the bunks? Probably. Why not yes? You're talking about kids. Heck, the 1st time I tried to open one (fire exit window) I got pretty aggravated and told my wife that when the time came just bust it out - if that was required. But as has been mentioned, we will be doing everything we can to get out the door simply because I'm not as hard headed as I used to be and don't know if my skull would survive the head first fall out of the window.

Do what you need to do, but in my opinion Keystone isn't at fault here. If they meet the criteria for that trailer configuration, and it sounds like they do, and have told you that, then it boils down to your choice to buy it.

I'm with the others; if it is important to you have one installed on your dime. If there is no place to put one due to the configuration, buy a new trailer; remember, you chose that particular trailer. If the window was of paramount importance it should have been on your checklist. We all have to learn to be responsible for our mistakes. JMO/YMMV
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Old 08-20-2018, 11:06 AM   #29
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The trailer is designed as it is and apparently meets any RVIA or safety measures imposed on that type of trailer configuration.
This is the point that it all hinges on. I think the manufacturers are counting on us just making the assumption that they meet the standard and going from there. I'm proposing that they do not actually meet it.

The RVIA sticker says the trailer complies with NFPA 1192. If they do not actually meet that standard, and they are just hoping we won't notice, it's fair to point that out.

To your point though, yes I should have checked for the egress window. To me this is a different thing than deciding after the fact that I'd like the trailer to have a different feature that I hadn't wanted before. I have (wrongly) assumed fire escapes and expected them to be adequate. When I noticed that they were not, and I noticed that Keystone posted a notice that claims they are adequate, that's when I start to question. A manufacturer can not claim to adhere to a safety standard, withhold a safety feature, and then 1) hope the consumer doesn't notice, and failing that 2) tell the consumer "too bad, that's just how we do it."
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Old 08-20-2018, 01:27 PM   #30
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Jeff,

I'll be interested to see the results of the dialogue you are having with Keystone. I've been reading the standard and depending on the size of the windows in the bunk area they may get by with the design but it still looks like they may have fallen short of all the requirements. I'm sure they have a reason that it seems that way, but, it will be interesting. Keep us in the loop.

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Old 08-20-2018, 01:46 PM   #31
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I'd bet they, Keystone, doesn't cave and here's why. If they decide, yes you the OP are correct and it is missing a fire escape window, they've just admitted all the trailers with a similar configuration are also missing the necessary escape window. I'd bet that necessitates a safety recall to fix every trailer made like yours. Good luck to you, though.
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Old 08-20-2018, 01:55 PM   #32
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I found a few older models that do have egress windows. Why would they remove them from newer models? 2015 and 2016 seem to have them, but sometime between then and the 2018 and 2019 models they opted for the sliders instead. Is there a reason not to use the hinged escape windows in a slideout? Are slider windows that much cheaper than egress windows? I'm really curious what the advantage is to Keystone to opt for replacing escape windows with windows of a similar size but that you can't escape through.
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Old 08-20-2018, 02:10 PM   #33
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I found a few older models that do have egress windows. Why would they remove them from newer models? 2015 and 2016 seem to have them, but sometime between then and the 2018 and 2019 models they opted for the sliders instead. Is there a reason not to use the hinged escape windows in a slideout? Are slider windows that much cheaper than egress windows? I'm really curious what the advantage is to Keystone to opt for replacing escape windows with windows of a similar size but that you can't escape through.
My 5th wheel has two escape windows, one in the bedroom and one in the hall... neither are in a slide.. as a point they both are within 8 feet of each other divided by a door. The bedroom is on the curb side and the hall is on the street side..
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Old 08-20-2018, 02:22 PM   #34
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Our Hideout has one in the front bedroom and one at the dinette, which is in a slide.
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Old 08-20-2018, 03:20 PM   #35
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My 5er has 1 in the bedroom that be near impossible for me to get out of plus the 8-10' drop. Have 2 in the rear, 1 behind the couch which would have to be moved to exit, the other at the end of the couch that I MIGHT be able to fit through. All of them would too difficult to,exit if in an emergency, which good LORD willing will NEVER happen.
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Old 08-20-2018, 04:15 PM   #36
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When I was in the Navy, I fit through an escape scuttle (think man hole cover for you shore types), these days my doc assures me that I'm fat, I might be able to get out of the escape window behind the couch (rear wall) and I can step down onto the cargo carrier. Climbing over the dresser in the bedroom to get out of that window... not so much...not to mention the fall to the ground (it's a bumper pull, not a 5er, so I MIGHT survive the fall).
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Old 08-20-2018, 04:45 PM   #37
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Don't have a clue if this is a real safety issue or not, but if you feel it is.

Do this: https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/

At least, your complaint will be on official record.
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Old 08-20-2018, 05:31 PM   #38
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When I was in the Navy, I fit through an escape scuttle (think man hole cover for you shore types), these days my doc assures me that I'm fat, I might be able to get out of the escape window behind the couch (rear wall) and I can step down onto the cargo carrier. Climbing over the dresser in the bedroom to get out of that window... not so much...not to mention the fall to the ground (it's a bumper pull, not a 5er, so I MIGHT survive the fall).
Not what the Doc said through-lol Click image for larger version

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Old 08-20-2018, 08:04 PM   #39
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Our 5er has 4 of the (in my opinion) useless escape windows. The usual 1 in the bedroom, 2 on the curb side, which are in a slide, and 1 in the rear behind the sofa. Like other have posted I hope to never have to use any of them as I'm not sure how to get out of one without breaking my neck or a leg or something.
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Old 08-21-2018, 04:17 AM   #40
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Ours has 2, one in the main bedroom, one in the first bunk. If I ever had to use the one in the main bedroom, I'd probably be able to get into the window and get stuck. I could probably get through the one in the first bunk. 2nd bunk doesn't have one however.

Best option in either case would to probably take the dinette table and smash though the largest window in the rig, in the dinette area.

Our unit isn't very big though, so I can't imagine a situation occurring that would lead to using a window or breaking one. Anything can happen though I guess.
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