Speaking of Andersen hitches..

[gearhead]

I have a question about Andersen hitches. I suspect I'm about to open my mouth and prove I am stupid or Al has hit me in the head with his hammer.
I have the RAM factory puck system.
With a gooseneck ball in my truck bed, the Anderson Ultimate mounts to that, then the gooseneck ball on top of the Andersen mounts to their coupler on the 5th pin. So what locks the pyramid base to the truck bed, or more clearly, what prevents the pyramid from just swiveling around on the truck bed. All the connections are round. If the 5th pin weight is on the gooseneck ball on the truck, does the pyramid support weight? If that, then the pyramid could still rotate when the 5th pin "unloads" over bumps?
Yes, I am a retired machinery specialist for a major international oil company. Yes, they will likely deny that now though.
And yes, it is raining.

[gkainz]

gravity

or friction



seriously tho...

The Andersen frame sits on the truck bed (gravity).

The center leg goes down over the gooseneck ball and the cross pin installed below the ball head. The vertical bolt is then tightened to 70 lbft (iirc) which draws the gooseneck and the Andersen together (friction).

The horizontal 2 bolts are tightened to 50 (?) lbft to take the fore and aft slack out of the vertical leg.

The trailer is then lowered onto the Andersen ball, and gravity again takes over to the tune of (pin weight - 70 lbft) (the torque applied to the vertical bolt).

But hey - I'm a software engineer and this hitch is hardware, so that the above with a grain of salt!

[xcntrk]

That's a great question. I know that the Anderson torques down on the gooseneck ball to "secure the assembly to the bed of the truck", but I think to your point, what's to prevent that assembly from spinning on the ball? Especially as the trailer bounces and applies upward (lifting) pressure? I wouldn't be surprised if the Anderson assembly moves/twists a little. Here's the install instructions, equally as mystifying...

https://andersenhitches.com/uploads/...20(lo-res).pdf

[Desert185]

The 60# of torque on the top bolt secures the hitch to the ball. It doesn't ever rotate. There is also a railed version in steel.

The two bolts on the forward side are 40# torque.

Go to www.andersenhitches.com and YouTube for videos.

[gearhead]

Yeah yeah yeah, I been all over their website. Apparently they are relying on the clamping force of the bolts at the truck ball to prevent rotation, along with weight. But there is going to have to be some fine measuring and engineering to lock the radius of the truck ball to the height of the pyramid to assure the weight is on the pyramid. Unless there is so much clearance around the truck ball that the weight has to be transferred to the pyramid.
I'm obviously overthinking it or missing something, something big. LOL

[jkoons]

After you capture the ball in bed of truck and tighten the top bolt it pulls the Anderson tight to bed of truck same as B&w companion hitch. You do have a ball through the floor of the bed if not then I have no idea.

[Outback 325BH]

Stand in the bed of your truck and try to pull out the gooseneck ball. Try harder. That force causes your feet to push down harder on the bed. That is it.

The whole thing relies on the locking detent in the gooseneck ball to keep the hitch in place.

For this and several other reasons I think the whole this is a hokey jury-rig... but that is just my opinion. Other people disagree and appears to be a very touchy subject.


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[JRTJH]

Obviously it works (and lasts a long time) but.....

If a fifth wheel hitch were "mounted to the truck bed" it would not be as strong as the way it is "mounted to the truck frame".

With the Andersen, it seems that it's mounted (hitched) to the ball that's mounted to the truck frame. That "seems good" but then any accel/decel forces would apply pressure to the pyramid which is resting on the truck bed. It would seem that in an accident where there's rapid deceleration, the forward motion of the trailer as it pushes against the pyramid would force the pyramid to push against the truck bed (not the truck frame)... That "sheet metal" is not as strong as the frame metal and would deform, allowing the hitch to "twist and deform" during the decelleration.

So, maybe it's a great system, maybe there's some "physics rule" that I'm overlooking (or probably never heard of) ??? But, it just doesn't seem to me that using the truck bed 16 ga sheet metal as a part of the supporting structure is as strong as using the truck frame, bolted to two "in bed rails" that are made of 3/16" steel.

I'm sure it's a "tried and true" system with "proven capacity". It just doesn't follow my "sense of logic" when it comes to being as strong as a fifth wheel hitch that's mounted to structural steel both at the frame and the supporting rails and attached at 4 points, not attached at one point, like the Andersen is.

ADDED: Not to get into the aluminum vs steel bed commercials of late, but if the Andersen hitch is installed in a new SuperDuty with an aluminum bed, does it lose some of the rigidity of the pyramid that's supposed to be resting on the steel bed of a GM or RAM truck? I know, more "argumentative comments from me"..... but as gearhead said much earlier in this thread, lots of stuff that I just can't "wrap my head around"......

[Alpine]

Originally Posted by jkoons

After you capture the ball in bed of truck and tighten the top bolt it pulls the Anderson tight to bed of truck same as B&w companion hitch. You do have a ball through the floor of the bed if not then I have no idea.

From what I see on the B & W Hitch they have a square shank that fits into a square receiver in the bed of the truck, thus keeping it from any turning. I don't believe there is a ball involved.

[kfxgreenie]

Originally Posted by Alpine

From what I see on the B & W Hitch they have a square shank that fits into a square receiver in the bed of the truck, thus keeping it from any turning. I don't believe there is a ball involved.

The square tube is different, but the same principle is used as far as clamping to the bed though. B&W can't turn but is still pulled down to the bed using the same technique and pulls against the gooseneck locking mechanism the same way as the Andersen. If there was a problem here i would think B&W would say so since they manufacture A LOT of the turnover balls out there. Both B&W companion and Andersen would deform the bed in the same way. B&W companion was deforming a few beds so they installed some nylon spacers that are adjustable to go in the valleys of the bed ridges. I have seen a post where and Andersen user put some 1/4" steel spacers between the ultimate base and the bed to prevent a potential problem. I had some slight turning on my Andersen at first. My Andersen was one of the 1st Aluminum Ultimate's out and directions called for 50 FT LB's of torque on the top bolt. I put down some black EPDM roofing rubber that was laying around and still only torqued it down to 50 LB's and no turning. My book was also before the addition of torquing down after the 5er is sitting on the base. Still no turning, and no sign of bed deformation.

[Outback 325BH]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Obviously it works (and lasts a long time) but.....



If a fifth wheel hitch were "mounted to the truck bed" it would not be as strong as the way it is "mounted to the truck frame".



With the Andersen, it seems that it's mounted (hitched) to the ball that's mounted to the truck frame. That "seems good" but then any accel/decel forces would apply pressure to the pyramid which is resting on the truck bed. It would seem that in an accident where there's rapid deceleration, the forward motion of the trailer as it pushes against the pyramid would force the pyramid to push against the truck bed (not the truck frame)... That "sheet metal" is not as strong as the frame metal and would deform, allowing the hitch to "twist and deform" during the decelleration.



So, maybe it's a great system, maybe there's some "physics rule" that I'm overlooking (or probably never heard of) ??? But, it just doesn't seem to me that using the truck bed 16 ga sheet metal as a part of the supporting structure is as strong as using the truck frame, bolted to two "in bed rails" that are made of 3/16" steel.



I'm sure it's a "tried and true" system with "proven capacity". It just doesn't follow my "sense of logic" when it comes to being as strong as a fifth wheel hitch that's mounted to structural steel both at the frame and the supporting rails and attached at 4 points, not attached at one point, like the Andersen is.



ADDED: Not to get into the aluminum vs steel bed commercials of late, but if the Andersen hitch is installed in a new SuperDuty with an aluminum bed, does it lose some of the rigidity of the pyramid that's supposed to be resting on the steel bed of a GM or RAM truck? I know, more "argumentative comments from me"..... but as gearhead said much earlier in this thread, lots of stuff that I just can't "wrap my head around"......

You are spot on... on all counts.


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[vampress_me]

My humble opinion. The Andersen hitch is adding one more point of failure when compared to a B&W Companion hitch.

The B&W has a solid square piece of steel that sits down in the turnover ball hitch frame attached to the frame of a truck. The turnover ball (or Companion) is then held in place by a steel pin through the hitch and hitch frame. Solid connection in the bed of the truck to the frame of the truck.

The Andersen hitch is attached by a pin to the gooseneck ball in the bed of the truck. Gooseneck ball is either mounted directly to the frame of the truck, or is a turnover ball as shown in Andersens directions. By attaching to the gooseneck ball, you have just introduced another point of potential failure in the setup.

So, to me, I don't like the thought of introducing another point of failure into the equation. Now, to be fair, I own a Companion hitch and have used it for 3 years so far. I also know people love their Andersen hitches, and they seem to work for them, which is great.

[gearhead]

Originally Posted by Outback 325BH

Stand in the bed of your truck and try to pull out the gooseneck ball. Try harder. That force causes your feet to push down harder on the bed. That is it.

The whole thing relies on the locking detent in the gooseneck ball to keep the hitch in place.

For this and several other reasons I think the whole this is a hokey jury-rig... but that is just my opinion. Other people disagree and appears to be a very touchy subject.


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Yep. I'm thinking the same. Those round ball bearings that hold the Ram ball in the bed socket look iffy to me. Chinese balls on a quarter turn lever. I don't think so. I imagine folks are pulling horses all over using it though.
I pulled with a B&W turnover ball with a Curt industry standard rail adapter. No issues. But it was a square hole with the B&W pin with cable lock. I had read somewhere about the rails, that are just floating above the bed, doing some bed damage. I never saw it but I had only a couple years service with a light Cougar 5th.
I've had 3 issues with my Curt Q20 hitch. Two were my fault for sure, and the other probably was. I've been just looking around to see what else is out there.

[Outback 325BH]

Originally Posted by gearhead

Yep. I'm thinking the same. Those round ball bearings that hold the Ram ball in the bed socket look iffy to me. Chinese balls on a quarter turn lever. I don't think so. I imagine folks are pulling horses all over using it though.

I pulled with a B&W turnover ball with a Curt industry standard rail adapter. No issues. But it was a square hole with the B&W pin with cable lock. I had read somewhere about the rails, that are just floating above the bed, doing some bed damage. I never saw it but I had only a couple years service with a light Cougar 5th.

I've had 3 issues with my Curt Q20 hitch. Two were my fault for sure, and the other probably was. I've been just looking around to see what else is out there.

Those detent balls do take some force under normal gooseneck operation, however what Andersen is using them for was not what they were designed for. 99% of all force on a gooseneck ball under normal circumstances is downward. 100% of all force on the gooseneck ball in the Andersen is upward.

And we haven't even started to talk about the 5er pin-to-top-ball offset that tries to bend the pin by that 6" (or so) lever.


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[gkainz]

Originally Posted by Outback 325BH

100% of all force on the gooseneck ball in the Andersen is upward.

How do you figure that? Ok, sure, before I set my pin box down on the ball, I have 70 lbft of upward lift on my gooseneck ball. When I set my trailer down and lift the jacks, I have 1650 lbs of downward force on my gooseneck ball.

[Outback 325BH]

Originally Posted by gkainz

How do you figure that? Ok, sure, before I set my pin box down on the ball, I have 70 lbft of upward lift on my gooseneck ball. When I set my trailer down and lift the jacks, I have 1650 lbs of downward force on my gooseneck ball.

No, you have 1,650 lbs on the hitch which is pushing down on your sheet metal or aluminum bed in your truck... but the gooseneck ball is still being pulled up. That upward force on the gooseneck ball is the only thing keeping your hitch in place.


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[Desert185]

And then there is the Andersen steel, railed version for those of you without balls.

[xcntrk]

Let me add my real world observations then apply it to the Anderson mounting approach.

I'm short-bed challenged and use a Pullrite 18k Superglide auto-slider hitch. It's a 200+ pound super solid beast. It's mounted to ISR rails that are mounted to the frame using your standard rail kit - which is also HD all 1/4"+ solid steel. This is a steel bed pickup.

While in common forward travel, the pin weight of my trailer (anywhere from 3000-3500# depending) is directly over both rails, however as the hitch slides in the a turn, that pin weight moves to be over the rearmost rail. Once the turn is complete, the hitch returns to center.

Over the years of towing, this shifting of weight has put excessive load on that rearmost rail and it's now literally bent! Granted it's not bad and is really only measurable using a level, but it happened and is a reality.

This is an example of the kind of abuse these hitches, the mounting system, and the truck bed experiences while dragging these beasts down the road. Enough pressure and load to bend a very heavy-duty all steel system. Now apply these observations to a lightweight aluminum tripod system which is only affixed using 50# of single bolt pressure to a gooseneck ball. That simply does not compute. Not to mention the potential of mixing in an ALL aluminum truck bed! Yikes

[xcntrk]

Originally Posted by Desert185

And then there is the Andersen steel, railed version for those of you without balls.

haha... It's like going to Vegas, maybe you'll get lucky

[Desert185]

Originally Posted by xcntrk

Let me add my real world observations then apply it to the Anderson mounting approach.

I'm short-bed challenged and use a Pullrite 18k Superglide auto-slider hitch. It's a 200+ pound super solid beast. It's mounted to ISR rails that are mounted to the frame using your standard rail kit - which is also HD all 1/4"+ solid steel. This is a steel bed pickup.

While in common forward travel, the pin weight of my trailer (anywhere from 3000-3500# depending) is directly over both rails, however as the hitch slides in the a turn, that pin weight moves to be over the rearmost rail. Once the turn is complete, the hitch returns to center.

Over the years of towing, this shifting of weight has put excessive load on that rearmost rail and it's now literally bent! Granted it's not bad and is really only measurable using a level, but it happened and is a reality.

This is an example of the kind of abuse these hitches, the mounting system, and the truck bed experiences while dragging these beasts down the road. Enough pressure and load to bend a very heavy-duty all steel system. Now apply these observations to a lightweight aluminum tripod system which is only affixed using 50# of single bolt pressure to a gooseneck ball. That simply does not compute. Not to mention the potential of mixing in an ALL aluminum truck bed! Yikes

"It's a 200+ pound super solid beast."

And yet, the 200#, 18K "beast" has bent the rail, while there is still no evidence of issues with the Andersen 24K hitch (aluminum or steel, ball or rail version). Plenty opinion...no evidence. I'm sure, when and if evidence appears, there will be a plethora of I told you so's.