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Old 11-28-2017, 10:02 AM   #21
JRTJH
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Originally Posted by Freeheel4life View Post
Just out of curiosity, do the 5ers not get affected as much by the vortex created by passing semis on the interstate?? I would assume weight helps. ... Curious is 5ers experience this??
Travel trailers connect (with a hinge point) several feet behind the tow vehicle rear axle. Fifth wheels connect "directly above" (to slightly forward of) the rear axle. With a travel trailer the "hinge point" becomes a lever to push the forward axle (steering axle) of the tow vehicle in the opposite direction of the hitch movement. This sets up sway. Limiting movement at the "hinge point" movement is the theory behind why anti-sway hitches work.

While weight might play a "very small, almost insignificant" factor in controlling sway with fifth wheel towing, I've had fifth wheels in the "less than 7000 pound 26' length and in the 10,000 pound 31' length and both towed and tracked almost the same (virtually no sway) when passing large vehicles or when being passed by large vehicles. There is very little "push/pull" with fifth wheels, more related to where the hitch/fulcrum is located and not so much related to weight or size (given the use of an appropriately sized tow vehicle).
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Old 11-28-2017, 10:21 AM   #22
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Lots of smart cookies around here. Thanks for dropping some physics knowledge on tow points.
With the 5er can you induce more of a forward to back bounce or "wave" type harmonic as TV rear axle encounters changes in the road?? Or is hitch designed to take up some of that??
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Old 11-28-2017, 10:24 AM   #23
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I would respectfully, but vehemently disagree with the notion of deflating tires to run in the rain. I don't think the idea is acceptable from any angle.
Completely agree. Proper inflation is a must at highway speed. Under inflation can decrease contact by causing the tread to cup upwards and over inflation can cause the tread to cup down. Think of the tread looking like a n or u shape. Slowing down and being alert are the key to a happy ending in any adverse weather.
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Old 11-28-2017, 11:00 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Freeheel4life View Post
Lots of smart cookies around here. Thanks for dropping some physics knowledge on tow points.
With the 5er can you induce more of a forward to back bounce or "wave" type harmonic as TV rear axle encounters changes in the road?? Or is hitch designed to take up some of that??
This is my personal experience, I'm far from a physics major, so it may not come across as "theoretically provable by mathematic formulas".....

Chucking is the major complaint with fifth wheel towing. There are two types of "chucking". The first is "fore/aft banging" during acceleration and braking and occurs because of the "slop" or "lack of tight coupling" at the pin collar.

The second, and more in line with what you describe, is the bounce of the pin within the hitch as the tow vehicle encounters bumps or expansion joints (typically on concrete roads). This happens when the pin recess above the collar bounces up and down in the hitch locking mechanism. I've only had this happen a couple of times and I attributed it more to the distance between the expansion joints and how they set up my rig so the axles on the truck were bouncing "opposite" the axles on the trailer. ie: The truck rear axle was going up when the trailer front axle was going down and the two were "fighting each other". To counter this, quality shocks, possibly air bags and maybe even a "cushioned pin box" would help. But, as I said, I've only encountered it a couple of times, so for us it's not a problem....

When you consider towing, the most significant difference between fifth wheels and travel trailers is the "spring type hitch bars" that are used with travel trailers to redistribute weight. Those bars actually enhance the "up down chucking" when everything aligns correctly to cause the bouncing..... With fifth wheels, there is roughly 20% of the total trailer weight as "dead weight" sitting directly over the tow vehicle rear axle. There's no "spring enhanced hitch" to increase the dynamics of "springing" between the trailer and the tow vehicle. Hopefully, with a properly equipped tow vehicle, the rear shocks will "dampen out" most of the "up down chucking" encountered with fifth wheel towing. It may not be as easy with travel trailers using a "spring bar hitch system.
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Old 11-28-2017, 04:04 PM   #25
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If diesel on your truck, use your exhaust brake if so equipped on the downhills. It makes an incredible difference in the amount of control. Itherwisw, down shift to help control your speed.

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The truck manual specifically states NOT to use the engine brake or to/haul during slippery conditions...
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Old 11-28-2017, 04:09 PM   #26
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I would respectfully, but vehemently disagree with the notion of deflating tires to run in the rain. I don't think the idea is acceptable from any angle.
Glad you posted this. I agree.
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Old 11-28-2017, 04:15 PM   #27
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The truck manual specifically states NOT to use the engine brake or to/haul during slippery conditions...
Depends on the system. I have a stick (I’m my own tow/haul mode control) and an engine brake and use them both...wet or dry.
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Old 11-28-2017, 05:43 PM   #28
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No one has mentioned Trailer brake controller gain setting. Make sure your trailer wheels don't lock up on the slicker wet surface. Brake controller gain needs to be set according to conditions and most people just set it and leave it on that setting all the time. Not the correct procedure.
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Old 11-28-2017, 05:46 PM   #29
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The truck manual specifically states NOT to use the engine brake or to/haul during slippery conditions...
My Ram manual says to be careful using the exhaust brake while towing in slippery conditions. You could jack knife the rig.
I try to brake the truck, and trailer, rather than rely on the exhaust brake in rain.
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Old 11-28-2017, 06:04 PM   #30
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https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiret...e.jsp?techid=3

An interesting read...with photos.
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Old 11-28-2017, 07:22 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by notanlines View Post
I would respectfully, but vehemently disagree with the notion of deflating tires to run in the rain. I don't think the idea is acceptable from any angle.
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A tire inflated to max sidewall pressure may be overinflated for the load carried, as such reducing the contact patch with the road! This is NOt a good idea, you want the MAXIMUM CONTACT patch, not MAXIMUM PRESSURE unless you are running with tires at maximum load. You can find load inflation tables with the tire manufacturers web sites usually.

I live in the Wet Coast, trust me on this, this is not just for wet, you should always run the correct pressure of the load!
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I agree with this also, but understand there is no mention of inflating the tire to max sidewall inflation.

The P225/65-17 on our Chevy Equinox have a max pressure of 44 psi for a capacity of 1,874# or a total of 7,496#, But the listed GVWR is only 5,070# hence the reason the tire is only inflated to 35 psi per the door post Payload sticker.
If I were to inflate to 44 psi then they would by definition be over inflated by 9 psi, or almost 26% for the application, but not the physical tire.

So I add to this another link.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiret...e.jsp?techid=1
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Old 11-29-2017, 05:33 AM   #32
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My Ram manual says to be careful using the exhaust brake while towing in slippery conditions. You could jack knife the rig.
I try to brake the truck, and trailer, rather than rely on the exhaust brake in rain.
Exactly. The exhaust brake could potentially lock up your drive tires on slippery roads. Even braking is more desirable. I live in the snow belt, drive a semi pulling doubles for a living, and trust me when the drives lock up the tractor goes sideways. I ain't telling you not too use it, but I rarely use it in bad weather. It all depends on grip and how much weight is on the wheels. I prefer to control my speed and following distance with proper braking.

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Old 11-29-2017, 05:37 AM   #33
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No one has mentioned Trailer brake controller gain setting. Make sure your trailer wheels don't lock up on the slicker wet surface. Brake controller gain needs to be set according to conditions and most people just set it and leave it on that setting all the time. Not the correct procedure.
Also true.

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Old 11-29-2017, 07:02 AM   #34
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Exactly. The exhaust brake could potentially lock up your drive tires on slippery roads. Even braking is more desirable. I live in the snow belt, drive a semi pulling doubles for a living, and trust me when the drives lock up the tractor goes sideways. I ain't telling you not too use it, but I rarely use it in bad weather. It all depends on grip and how much weight is on the wheels. I prefer to control my speed and following distance with proper braking.

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I can see that and applaud your experience, but maybe we should define slippery. Wet roads or icy, snowy roads. Big difference, I think. Personally, I don’t tow on snow or ice and have not had a problem in the rain by downshifting or using the exhaust brake. In my case, the two don’t happen simultaneously, which I’ve heard happens with the newer, computer controlled systems of tow/haul automatic-EB combos. If that’s the case, it sounds like a negative “improvement” to assist the driving experience.
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Old 11-29-2017, 09:51 AM   #35
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My previous comment was addressed to the topic; towing in the rain. I will not ever attempt to tow on ice or snow, no matter what. I have towed many miles in the rain including on such roads as US 550 between Durango and Ouray and a number of similar roads w/o a problem using tow-haul and exhaust brake. I specifically stay off the brake pedal as much as possible and so far have kept the shiny side up. I don't dispute that using them on snow/ice could be a problem, but the same can be said about using brakes on slick surfaces.
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Old 11-29-2017, 01:08 PM   #36
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I can see that and applaud your experience, but maybe we should define slippery. Wet roads or icy, snowy roads. Big difference, I think. Personally, I don’t tow on snow or ice and have not had a problem in the rain by downshifting or using the exhaust brake. In my case, the two don’t happen simultaneously, which I’ve heard happens with the newer, computer controlled systems of tow/haul automatic-EB combos. If that’s the case, it sounds like a negative “improvement” to assist the driving experience.
Agreed, my "simple" definition of slippery would be the opposite of grip. Grip is when the exhaust brake is not strong enough to stop the drive axle from turning, slippery is when the exhaust brake IS strong enough to stop the drive axle from turning. Rain alone would probably not be slippery. I am just advising to use caution. What if there were an oily spot in the road that was also wet? Additionally your rig is always the same rig with the same weight or down pressure on the rear wheels. For me the down pressure on the drives can vary by 10,000 lbs. A set of empties on a rainy road would not be the ideal conditions to use an exhaust brake. All that said, I do use the exhaust brake in the rain sometimes, not saying I dont. I'm just warning people that an exhaust brake is not the easy answer to every towing situation.
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Old 11-29-2017, 01:26 PM   #37
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My previous comment was addressed to the topic; towing in the rain. I will not ever attempt to tow on ice or snow, no matter what. I have towed many miles in the rain including on such roads as US 550 between Durango and Ouray and a number of similar roads w/o a problem using tow-haul and exhaust brake. I specifically stay off the brake pedal as much as possible and so far have kept the shiny side up. I don't dispute that using them on snow/ice could be a problem, but the same can be said about using brakes on slick surfaces.
Heres the difference, IF the exhaust brake locks up your drives you WILL go into a slide. A slide begins when one axle is turning slower than the others, either because of bad brake balance or an exhaust btrake. A slide also begins if one axle is turning faster than the others, mostly the drives from applying to much power. So the idea is to keep all wheels turning at the same speed. I have no problem believing what you say is working for you. But intentionally staying off the brakes as much as possible makes no sense. If they are adjusted properly then use them. If you drive that same truck empty do you use your brakes in the rain? Of course you do. I promise you I drive a lot of miles in the snow every winter and I use the brakes, not the exhaust brake. If I used the exhaust brake exclusively I'd be in the ditch. Again, I'm not telling people to not use it in the rain I'm just trying to show exactly what's going on and that it COULD get them in trouble. While we're on the subject I would add that driving these trucks empty in the rain is probably not an ideal situation to use an exhaust brake. Your mileage may vary,
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Old 11-29-2017, 01:30 PM   #38
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Agreed, my "simple" definition of slippery would be the opposite of grip. Grip is when the exhaust brake is not strong enough to stop the drive axle from turning, slippery is when the exhaust brake IS strong enough to stop the drive axle from turning. Rain alone would probably not be slippery. I am just advising to use caution. What if there were an oily spot in the road that was also wet? Additionally your rig is always the same rig with the same weight or down pressure on the rear wheels. For me the down pressure on the drives can vary by 10,000 lbs. A set of empties on a rainy road would not be the ideal conditions to use an exhaust brake. All that said, I do use the exhaust brake in the rain sometimes, not saying I dont. I'm just warning people that an exhaust brake is not the easy answer to every towing situation.
And that is enough info now for folks to decide for themselves as to whether they choose to use the EB or not. Certainly preferable to them never using the EB in the rain (to their possible detriment) because the book advises against it or they don’t have enough knowledge or experience to judge for themselves.

Goes back to my point awhile back on another thread about education vs dumbing down. Better to have all the facts and decide for yourself. At least that’s my vote.

PS My dad drove trucks, and he was good. Put a lot of food on the table, and was a great example and teacher. I have a lot of respect for good truck drivers.
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Old 11-29-2017, 01:41 PM   #39
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And that is enough info now for folks to decide for themselves as to whether they choose to use the EB or not. Certainly preferable to them never using the EB in the rain (to their possible detriment) because the book advises against it or they don’t have enough knowledge or experience to judge for themselves.

Goes back to my point awhile back on another thread about education vs dumbing down. Better to have all the facts and decide for yourself. At least that’s my vote.

PS My dad drove trucks, and he was good. Put a lot of food on the table, and was a great example and teacher. I have a lot of respect for good truck drivers.
Exactly
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