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Old 10-15-2018, 06:25 AM   #1
Jeremy888
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Shower drain backs up

Have a 2017 Montana 3950 BR . When ever we do laundry and try to take a shower the shower won't drain , and we noticed that blue fibers from washing new blue towels were in the shower . My 5th wheel control panel says I have 2 grey water tanks , but there is only one valve that is labeled grey water. There is also an unlabeled valve that is in a little black plastic door between the
office and kitchen slide outs. This appears to be from the kitchen and an 1-1/2 " ABS pipe apparently connects this valve with the main 4" sewer pipe .. The guy i bought this from said that he was told by the dealer to always leave this open , but there is nothing between this valve and the poop pipe ,so i shut it when dumping the black water tank. This guy didn't flush the black water tank out sufficiently or he just left the black water valve open because no matter how well i flush it , poop and paper still come out . I dont put paper in the toilet . This tank is a mess
I put in treatment , filled the tank to the toilet and let it sit 7 months in storage and it still is dirty . The monitors say it is full ,which means paper on them . Once again the so called owners manual , with zero diagrams is useless . OK so here are my questions...

1. Anyone experience the shower washer drain problem? If so is there a solution?

2. Does any one have a pipe / tank diagram?

3 how about a wiring diagram

4. can anyone tell me if i do have 2 grey water tanks and if so where are they?

After owning 2 alpenlites with excellent owners manuals including diagrams ,this trailer is a do it yourselfers nightmare. HELP
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Old 10-15-2018, 06:55 AM   #2
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If you got diagrams with a RV you are one of the lucky ones.
You will find that 99% of RV's don't come with them.

Can any members lend some help here?
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Old 10-15-2018, 07:02 AM   #3
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Your Montana "should have" (in a used unit, it's impossible to say what the previous owner might have modified) two gray water tanks. One 44 gallon tank for the galley and one 44 gallon tank for the shower/bath sink. You also have one 49 gallon black tank for the toilet.

Keystone has "plumbed the washer" to various tanks in some trailers, but usually it's plumbed to the front (bathroom) gray tank. The shower drain has a HEPVO valve (not a conventional P trap) which is essentially a "rubber balloon inside a PVC fitting". That HEPVO valve may have deteriorated or it may be filled with soap scum/hair from showering. DON'T RUN A WIRE DOWN THE DRAIN or you'll destroy the HEPVO valve. You will need to get inside the front compartment and locate the valve, remove it and clean it or replace it if defective. If you do replace it, the "ridges go down" when you install the replacement......

As for blue fibers coming up into the shower, that essentially confirms where the washer is draining. Into the front gray tank.

Now, most people who are connected to sewer will leave both gray tanks open to drain. Some object to park sewer gasses in their trailer but most don't seem to have a problem with that.

As for the black tank, if the previous owner left the valve open, I'd almost bet you've got a "poop pile" in the tank. It's like concrete, may not dissolve or soften enough to move through the tank to the valve, so you may wind up "mechanically breaking up that pile"... BE CAREFUL with using anything but water in the tank, an auger may puncture the tank and then you'll really have a problem. There are some "digesters" on the market that might help. If you are leaving it sit for a prolonged time, possibly a box of Rid-X bacteria starter would help? But that usually takes months to be effective, so don't expect results in a couple of days.....

Your request for plumbing and wiring diagrams is not going to be successful. Keystone does not provide that information to any owner and most dealerships also request the drawings and they can't get them either.... Why so secret? Only Keystone knows for sure, but if you do happen to get that information, you'll be a "rich man" because everyone on this forum would pay you to get a copy......

As for the location of your tanks, the black tank is directly under your toilet and connected by a 3" black PVC pipe. The bath gray tank (also the washer tank) is either directly in front of or behind the black tank. The galley gray tank is either over the axles or very close to center (front/back) of the trailer. The location of that "second valve handle" indicates the tank is probably just inboard from the handle location.

Again, most of us leave the gray tank valves (both of them) open when camping and keep the black tank valve closed except for dumping and only then, when the black tank is full, so the contents have enough volume to "push solids" out of the tank.

ADDED: You say that when the washer drains, you get blue fibers coming out of the shower drain. Your gray tanks are in the basement, about 3-4 feet below the shower floor, so any water rising that far would have to be "forced up the drain" a significant distance. Are you sure the valves are completely open on your gray tanks? If the Bowden cable on the valve handle is loose or disconnected from the valve, you may be pulling on an "empty cable" and the valve may be only partly open, causing the tank to fill when the washer drains and forcing the water up the drain. Usually, water in the tank should drain through the 1.5" valve, not back up into the shower and with 44 gallons, the washer should not fill the tank, so I'd suspect a partly open/plugged valve as at least a "contributing factor".....
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Old 10-15-2018, 08:54 AM   #4
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Thanks jrtjh, Very informative answer. So I guess I'll have to cut the HEPVO valve off the black ABS . I spotted it when I was searching for the Inverter, do you know where the Inverter is .? I will probably just install a regular drain trap ,will this affect the system negatively? The HePVO valve is obviously a new method of keeping odor out. Is it also supposed to operate like a check valve ? In other words the water is only supposed to flow one way? Or is it just for odor . This will determine whether I change it out with a regular trap or clean or replace it. After seeing the valve I did not use a snake , but did try vinegar and baking soda . So i will use something other than glue to replace it so I can clean it again .

Everything you say concerning tank location makes sense , Thank you . So the small valve in the black plastic door as I described is the forward grey tank valve. Since the previous owner said he left it open all the time , I fear sewage is in the line and hardened like the " mountain of dried poop " which I am sure exists. More evidence that the mountain exists is the lack of a lot of pressure when draining the full black tank . I will keep working on it .. I'm going to try Ridex when I store it again . I will investigate the possible grey tank valve malfunction if the Hepvo valve is found to be ok . I feel The tension when pushed or pulled so The cable is definitely not broken . It feels like t should ... I've owned 6 other RV's and so I am not inexperienced. The previous owner was rich so he always just called the dealership ....fherefore he provided me very little ....except headaches.

Yes I know that it is impossible to get diagrams , a guy at Keystone lied to me saying they don't exist. I countered saying so you are telling me they wire and plumb these things without a wiring diagram? What a crock . Obviously they have some kind of sweetheart deal with the dealership s. Therefore I am very thankful for this forum and for guys like you who know their RV onions . It is a fact that Alpenlite provided great manuals complete with wiring diagrams both 110 and 12V . So I guess I was lucky .
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Old 10-15-2018, 08:56 AM   #5
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Oops

rereading !I meant "after grey water tank " valve not forward .
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Old 10-15-2018, 08:47 PM   #6
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Our Montana has the Hepvo valve attached to the shower drain, and yes, water will back up into the shower/tub if the gray tank gets full. On our rig, the clothes washer drains directly past the tanks and into the drain pipe after all the tanks, and there is a label that states you must be connected to a sewer connection in order to wash clothes. Many other rigs do drain the washing machine into one of the waste tanks, occasionally even a black tank, but in any case, you should be connected to a sewer connection and have that tank drain valve open, or you will always have an over filled tank. I have been very happy with our Hepvo valves, and have the one below the shower and also one under the bedroom vanity sink. They just need to be cleaned occasionally with a soft bottle brush, which for the shower, just use the brush through the drain fitting in the shower. For us, the one under the sink must be removed to clean, but that is usually only once a year, and we full time.
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Old 10-16-2018, 06:59 AM   #7
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My grey tank is probably not full because I have the valve open , and I can see water draining when using sinks etc . It is either the HEPVO valve or possibly a partially blocked line. Thanks for your input.
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Old 10-16-2018, 09:12 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy888 View Post
I countered saying so you are telling me they wire and plumb these things without a wiring diagram? ...
That would not surprise me at all, I doubt that any 2 trailers are put together the same way, after seeing some things on mine.

Who ever roto-zipped the hole in the wall, for the outside electrical outlet cut a nice, upside down U shape into the drain line for the kitchen sinks, which flooded the furnace and killed the control board on it.



You would think, if they were all made the same, there would be some kind of map where holes should be cut?

-Brian
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Old 10-16-2018, 09:54 AM   #9
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Go tour one of factories sometime, that will make a lot of the odd things you've seen make some sense. First the frames come onto the line upside down where all the plumbing, wiring (both 12 volt & 120), tanks & suspension get installed. Now realize that some of these folks are not the sharpest & don't give a s##t, working on everything upside down, using pneumatic or power tools that have 1 speed which is full power, add to that they are being rushed to move it along to get it out the door so once they've completed (well almost completed) their daily quota they are going home.
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Old 10-18-2018, 08:05 AM   #10
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Well ,that doesn't surprise me either, How in the world did your RV pass the " pre- delivery inspection" with a leak like that? For the money these things cost, you could think that they wouldn't have major screw ups like that! I am sorry I bought this tin box full of headaches ...but I'm stuck with it for now ... RV's with the exception of old Alpenlites are just slapped together .. I have an 86 and a 98 alpenlite 5th wheels . The quality of workmanship in the 86 is better than the 98 , but at least they both come with diagrams. Thanks for the comeback ...Do you know where the Inverter is in a 2017 3950 BR Montana 5th wheel?
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Old 10-24-2018, 05:11 AM   #11
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OK , I removed hepvo valve and found that the previous owner had apparently run a "snake" down the shower drain as the diaphram was torn to schreds . I had to also replace the ABS female coupling that receives the down flow end of the valve .. The installers used plumbers putty or something else rather than silicone tape on the threads which ultimately caused the coupling to part when taking it apart . The RV dealer wanted too much for the Hepvo valve , but i managed tofind pne on AMAZON Prime for 32 something .Thanks to all who helped here... I have another persistenplumbing problem... Does anyone know who makes this toilet with the ball valve flush ? It consistently will not close all the way , which lets oders in from the black tank . I have used plumbers grease to help it close but it only lasts several hours depending on use . Is there a way to adjust up the spring tension?
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Old 10-24-2018, 08:08 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy888 View Post
Have a 2017 Montana 3950 BR . When ever we do laundry and try to take a shower the shower won't drain , and we noticed that blue fibers from washing new blue towels were in the shower . My 5th wheel control panel says I have 2 grey water tanks , but there is only one valve that is labeled grey water. There is also an unlabeled valve that is in a little black plastic door between the
office and kitchen slide outs. This appears to be from the kitchen and an 1-1/2 " ABS pipe apparently connects this valve with the main 4" sewer pipe .. The guy i bought this from said that he was told by the dealer to always leave this open , but there is nothing between this valve and the poop pipe ,so i shut it when dumping the black water tank. This guy didn't flush the black water tank out sufficiently or he just left the black water valve open because no matter how well i flush it , poop and paper still come out . I dont put paper in the toilet . This tank is a mess
I put in treatment , filled the tank to the toilet and let it sit 7 months in storage and it still is dirty . The monitors say it is full ,which means paper on them . Once again the so called owners manual , with zero diagrams is useless . OK so here are my questions...

1. Anyone experience the shower washer drain problem? If so is there a solution?

2. Does any one have a pipe / tank diagram?

3 how about a wiring diagram

4. can anyone tell me if i do have 2 grey water tanks and if so where are they?

After owning 2 alpenlites with excellent owners manuals including diagrams ,this trailer is a do it yourselfers nightmare. HELP
I have a High Country 319RLS and found another valve for the second grey water tank. This was mounted forward from the other 2 handles it was a side mounted silver handle .
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Old 10-24-2018, 09:51 AM   #13
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OK , I removed hepvo valve and found that the previous owner had apparently run a "snake" down the shower drain as the diaphram was torn to schreds . I had to also replace the ABS female coupling that receives the down flow end of the valve .. The installers used plumbers putty or something else rather than silicone tape on the threads which ultimately caused the coupling to part when taking it apart . The RV dealer wanted too much for the Hepvo valve , but i managed tofind pne on AMAZON Prime for 32 something .Thanks to all who helped here... I have another persistenplumbing problem... Does anyone know who makes this toilet with the ball valve flush ? It consistently will not close all the way , which lets oders in from the black tank . I have used plumbers grease to help it close but it only lasts several hours depending on use . Is there a way to adjust up the spring tension?
The toilet is very likely a Thetford Aqua Magic Style II, and the adjustment for these is usually replacement with a Dometic 310 or 320. There have been way too many reports of rigs being flooded from the valves on these Thetford toilets failing.
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Old 10-26-2018, 04:08 AM   #14
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Hepvo valve sucessfully replaced . Had to get new ABS female fitting BUT now have another plumbing problem !
There are 2 white water lines,under the bathroom sink ,(actually only 1 line) connected by a black thingamjig that looks like some kind of pressure relief valve possibly. It is leaking out of the cap on top . What is this? I turned off main water valve and it is still leaking. This Montana is turning into a 70,000$ nightmare HELP.
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Old 10-26-2018, 06:15 AM   #15
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Please post any response concerning the anti-siphon valve that is leaking to the thread located at: http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums...ad.php?t=35572 and keep this thread "contained" to only the HEPVO valve issues....

Duplicate or multiple posting of a single problem create issues when members respond in one location (usually without knowing the same conversation is occurring in another location). It adds to confusion, multiple answers, fragmented responses and makes searching for help "almost impossible" for future users.

Please don't post multiple threads or questions on the forum. KISS (keep it simple, stupid) by only asking the question once and only answering them once.....
THANKS
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Old 10-27-2018, 05:23 AM   #16
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OK John will do , Sorry about that. I cetainly don't want to abuse the only real avenue of help .Thanks for your expert answers . The useless owners manual has no mention of the anti siphon valve. I did follow your advice since you said a replacement will most likely fail too in that I did not replace it . I have a clear window sewage fitting that has a female 3/4inch hose connection. Perhaps you can give me a nickle tour on any tips to effectively use it ?
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Old 10-28-2018, 09:46 AM   #17
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check along frame by sewer outlet, there should be a folding handle this is the second grey tank valve. It works on a cable system
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