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Old 10-18-2019, 07:29 AM   #21
jesfl45
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Seeking additional "lift-my-trailer" info . . .

I just joined this Forum and found this to be an extremely helpful discussion, especially the photos which were immensely educationsal for me. I have a similar problem, in that I need my rig raised 4" to 6." Yes, I know that is a lot. But . . . compared to other options, lifting the trailer is likely the least expensive for me.
While going to that trouble, I've been considering the idea and looking for options for adding shock absorbers, or some other suspension-enhancing system, to my current leaf suspension.
Since I am a complete novice to RVing, I yearn for every grain of information I can obtain. So, if anyone has any information they can share about the advantages/disadvantages of shocks or other buffering additions to the leaf springs, I will value that information.
One other thing that did not enter the discussion about how to "lift" a trailer (like a fifth wheel) is the idea of "flipping the axles?"
I've found several videos where trailer owners just changed the leafs from a bowed-downward position to a bowed-upward positions. Seemed fairly simple to do.
So, my "big question" is what are the pros and cons of this technique. Anyone have any experience with this?
I'll truly appreciate any information anyone happens to have.
Thanks.
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Old 10-18-2019, 07:41 AM   #22
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I'd first ask, "Why do you feel that you need an additional 4-6" suspension rise for your trailer?"

I ask that because the need for trailer height is usually a result of tow vehicle height. If you're towing with a "lifted truck" then you're opening a wide variety of issues from sway to cornering to stability at highway speeds with a rig that has both the tow vehicle and the trailer center of gravity substantially higher than they were built to accommodate.

More information on your tow vehicle, the trailer and the "end result" that you're trying to achieve would help with providing better "SAFE" recommendations.

ADDED: The only information we have about your rig is that it's a "Cougar". It could be a 21' Cougar travel trailer or a 40' Cougar fifth wheel, and there's no information on your tow vehicle which could be anything from a 1996 Ranger supercab "lifted truck" to a new F450 SuperDuty. Much more info is needed to make any recommendations !!!!!
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Old 10-18-2019, 08:14 AM   #23
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Problem solved. Sold camper.
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Old 10-18-2019, 10:16 AM   #24
jesfl45
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Trailer Lift Options . . .

To: John (and others participating in this discussion):

Thank you very much for your quick and to-the-point response. When I found this discussion thread, I tried to ask my previous question but the system wouldn't let me send it (even thought I was logged into RVLife). I had to register and log in again, so I just quickly filled out the required info so I could get on with it. I’ve been an RVLife member for quite a while, but I had to do it again for this Keystone forum.

You are correct, I left out information that will help the picture of the problem I face. So, here’s more details than you need to know. But, I wanted to try to fill in all possible blanks.

I have:
- 2018 RAM 2500 SLT Heavy Duty 4WD Diesel, not lifted. And,
- 2004 Coachmen Chaparral 5th wheel, 30 feet, 10,080 GVWR. This is the RV I currently own. I recently looked at a slightly newer, locally-owned Cougar to see if I could make a trade. Turns out, that was a no go. Yes, I know my current RV is not a Keystone, but it is similar. And, the discussion I found in your forum was to the point with a great new (to me) idea, i.e., the very sturdy welded-on box frame to lift a trailer.

END RESULT NEEDED: More than one-inch (1”) clearance between the bottom of the bedroom overhang on the 5th wheel and the bed rails on my RAM truck. RAM 2500/3500 trucks sit very high with the heavy-duty suspension, for instance, as compared to your F250 (and other Chevy and GMC trucks). When I measure comparable F250/F350’s and Chevy 2500/3500’s Fords and Chevys on car dealer lots, they seem naturally to sit 3” to 4” inches lower than my RAM.

The rear of the bed rail on my truck is 58.5 inches from the ground. The bedroom overhang is 59.5 inches from the ground. Obviously, that’s another “no go.” I know the truck will sink 1.5 to 2 inches from the tongue weight of the RV when hitched. But, 3-inches, or so, clearance is not enough for towing.

A gentleman I know with a Cougar and a RAM 3500 has the same problem I face. The difference is that his Cougar overhand is 61.5 inches from the ground (vs. my 59.5 inches). He has been towing with the rear of his Cougar 2 inches (or more?) lower than the front because of his high-sitting RAM. He’s about to lift his Cougar 2 inches, as I understood him.

My first thought was to lower the very-high-sitting truck a little (maybe 2 inches, as it is a “climb” to get into, even with the step rails). Then I also thought I could raise the 5th wheel about 2 inches. The balance of those two changes seemed like a reasonable solution to me, as a very naive new RVer.

But, I now have learned there is no way to lower the RAM because of the 4WD, according to 9 different truck customization shops with whom I talked. That leaves the RV (only) for modification.

Basically, I’m in the predicament of having 2 options: (1) sell/trade my (cherry) RAM and take a $5,000 to $10,000 hit, or (2) lift the RV a minimum of 3-inches (4-inches would be much safer for towing, as I see it). Trading my Chaparral for the one Cougar I saw would have been at least $10,000. Not possible for me.

I don’t know the cost of a “lift” yet, because I still don’t know the best (for me) solution. But a previous participant in this discussion said there was a quote of $2000, which I assumed was for a similar lift modification to the welded-on box frame addition?

I’ve also been trying to learn about replacement suspension systems that might provide a better tow for the 5th wheel (shocks, other rubber cushioning) that, at the same time, would provide some of the needed lift. Learning about the suspension options is even more difficult than finding lift options, I’ve learned.

The “flip the axles” (reverse the bow of the leaf springs) solution that I’ve seen on several videos seems a little tenuous to me. That’s why I asked about it. Also, the weld-on lift blocks solution only seems to get 2” to 3” of lift in every example I’ve found. So far, the weld-on-box-frame solution in this discussion seems to me to be the strongest and, therefore, the safest.

I’ve been postponing a drive to an RV repair shop (it's quite a distance), or a welding shop, until I can gather more information about options and carry on a more thoughtful conversation with someone who can do the work for me.

I am open to any and all ideas for solutions. Indeed, I’ll be eternally grateful to anyone who can provide information that will help.

Thanks, John, and to everyone who has participated. I am very grateful.

Jim
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Old 10-18-2019, 02:13 PM   #25
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Am I too late in this conversation to ask what the 59.5 inches from the ground the bottom of the 5'ver has to do with this? All the late model big three are very close to the same height at the tail gate. Normal RV'ers control the distance from the edge of the bed to the bottom of the 5'ver with the different bolt patterns on the pin box and on the hitch itself. We have discussed this many times in the past and usually settle on a 6"-8" distance of comfort. What am I missing here?
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Old 10-19-2019, 03:04 AM   #26
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Measurements & Trailer Lift Solutions

To: notanlines and others,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. No, to me, you are not late at all to the discussion. I’m hoping for every possible tidbit of information I can obtain and absorb.

You asked “. . . what the 59.5 inches from the ground the bottom of the 5'ver has to do with this?”

The answer is for me is a lot! It’s a huge limitiation for backing into and hitching my 5th wheel. Similarly, it creates a problem for getting the clearance between truck bed and trailer when towing. Let me try to clarify.

First, I think you may be making one key misassumption which complicates your understanding of my issue. You wrote “All the late model big three are very close to the same height at the tailgate.”

Actually, that’s not quite correct. From the ground to the rear bed rails/tailgate of my 2018 RAM 2500 4WD HD is 58.5.” What’s that distance on your truck?

When I went to dealers’ lots with my tape measure and triple-checked, I found the comparable F250s and Chevy/GMC 2500/3500’s rear bed rail height was considerably lower than the RAMs.

So here’s the “rub” with my truck and 5th wheel. I have only one-inch (1”) clearance between the rear bed rails/tailgate and the bottom of the overhang on my 5th wheel. For me, that’s waaaaay too close for comfort when backing in to hitch-up. Any little bounce or jerk when hitching on rough surfaces and I end up with damage to the truck bed rails/tailgate and/or the bottom of the 5th wheel overhang.

Once hitched, the tongue weight pushes the rear of the truck down another 1.5” to 2.”

That gives me 2.5” to 3” of clearance between the truck rear bed rails/tailgate and the bottom of the trailer overhang. Better, but . . . not towable like that.

The pinbox is already adjusted to the max. Also, I am looking at replacement pinboxes to gain a little more.

So, yes, I can adjust the hitch to get me the additional 4”, or so, of clearance and get me within the 6” to 8” of clearance for towing that we all agree is necessary.

However, in so doing, I now have a rig that sits 4”, or more, higher in the front than in the rear when towing! That’s what I call a tail-dragger. I can just hear the rear scissor jacks and bumper hitch screeching on the ground when towing over every bump or hump.

As I said, I know a gentleman who has the same RAM truck and a Cougar. We’ve compared measurements. His Cougar has a 61.5” to the ground under his front overhang. (Again, my rig is 59.5” to the ground.) Ergo, he has 2” more clearance than me when backing into the trailer to hitch-up. So, he is at less damage risk when backing and hitching. (We‘ve exchanged and compared measurements.) He has adjusted pinbox and hitch to get the essential 6” to 8” of towing clearance.

BUT, he still has a problem. He sent me a photo of his truck hitched and his Cougar is sitting significantly lower in the rear than the front. Clearly tail-dragging, also.

He is now planning at least a 2” lift modification to his Cougar to level the trailer when towing and eliminate the tail-dragging problem.

I have no idea what the long-term effect(s) on either my truck or my 5th wheel might be if I towed continuously with the rear of the trailer 4” to 5” lower? Stress on the hitch/pinbox? Stress on the axles? Extra stress on the truck? I just don’t even want to try it for oh-so-many-reasons.

That’s why I am searching for the best solution for lifting my trailer the 4” I feel I need. From what I’ve read, I have concluded I’ll probably be OK towing the trailer with the rear only an inch, or so, lower than the front. That is probably how it will work out after a 4” trailer lift. At least I mostly will have eliminated the ground-dragging on bumps and humps with with the rear scissor jacks and rear bumper hitch. And, any possible stress on the truck or trailer.

I certainly will welcome any other comments and suggestions. I hope to learn everything I can about:

(a)Methods for lifting a 5th wheel about 4 inches? (I am leaning toward the welded steel frame box on the bottom of my Lippert frame as shown in the photos in this discussion.) And,

(b)Any and all problems that have resulted from different lift techniques on 5th wheels? (Again, I recognize some risks with the trailer’s center-of-gravity being higher when towing.)

I truly look forward to hearing and learning more.

Thanks very much to everyone!

Jim
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Old 10-19-2019, 04:38 AM   #27
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I believe I see your towing problem much clearer. Let's discuss the hook-up problem. (I just walked out to the 450 and it still measures 58.5 inches)
Very seldom do any of us ever get to hook up our 5th wheel without raising or lowering the pin to the level where we unhooked. If you are camped on a slight incline the distance from ground to the bottom of the 5'ver may vary as much as 10". maybe more. In the morning when it's time to hit the road all stabilizers are raised and the front legs are adjusted back to unhitch height. Ours happens to do it automatically because it is an auto-level system.
If you do use 4" steel blocks to raise the frame, be absolutely sure that those blocks are also welded in place, not just trusted to stay put with new u-bolts. I might also be inclined to go up in diameter one size with my new bolts.
I sure wish you would post pictures on this site for all of us to see up close what you are describing.
And one more thing. I would stop my search for an RV dealer to do my blocks and instead look for a commercial truck spring and alignment shop to do the work.
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Old 10-23-2019, 10:02 AM   #28
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Lift blocks?

I need lift on my 2007 raptor triple axle and my research shows that lift blocks can twist out due to flexing of axles while doing sharp turns, especially if you have a triple axle setup. So Id like to do the frame lift route. Is there anyoneor any shops near colorado springs that can do this? I dont weld and dont have a shop. Having trouble finding qualified shop willing to do this at a reasonable rate. Im willing to travel if someone can point me to a shop. thks all for all this good info.
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Old 10-24-2019, 11:58 AM   #29
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notanlines made a good point. Don't measure from the ground up to the fifthwheel as that can change. Also, 2" of spring "squat" doesn't mean an extra 2" of clearance. The measurements that are important are the distance from the floor of the truck bed to the top of the hitch plate added to the distance from the bottom of the fifthwheel to the bottom of the friction plate minus the height of the bed rails from the floor of the truck bed. The spring "squat" will change that slightly due to how level the trailer sits.
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Old 10-24-2019, 12:33 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by td1837 View Post
I need lift on my 2007 raptor triple axle and my research shows that lift blocks can twist out due to flexing of axles while doing sharp turns, especially if you have a triple axle setup. So Id like to do the frame lift route. Is there anyoneor any shops near colorado springs that can do this? I dont weld and dont have a shop. Having trouble finding qualified shop willing to do this at a reasonable rate. Im willing to travel if someone can point me to a shop. thks all for all this good info.
You said "travel". GT Welding in SLC does box frame lifts. I've seen his work. Top Notch!! Not cheap though, but quality work that will hold up.
https://www.gtweldingsaltlakecity.com/
I'd have him do my Cougar but the DW locked up all the ammo for the "buck-zooka"
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Old 09-01-2020, 01:38 PM   #31
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Question

I am also trying to lift our 5th wheel and would appreciate any suggestions.
Tow vehicle: 2019 Ram 3500, no lift, but 35" tires.
5th Wheel: 2018 Keystone Fuzion 371
Front is currently riding about 3-4 inches high.
Open to any options.
Anyone know of a shop in the Sacramento area of CA that does trailer lifts?
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Old 09-01-2020, 02:50 PM   #32
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I too am having trailer leveling issues, even with no air in the airbags I am sitting nose high. I have found a good pressure to run them at but the nose is still a few(close to 3") high, even with the Andersen Ultimate on the lowest setting. My concern is the load of the axles, especially the rear one when carrying toys in the garage.
Truck is a Ram 2500 megacab 4x4 Cummins.
Trailer is a Raptor 300mp.
I upgraded the wheels and tires to 17.5" commercial ones to make sure I hav eno tire overloading issues.

Here is what I've found and will probably do this winter time.
I will replace the whole suspension. I know, sounds pricey but in all actuality it's not bad.
The MORryde SRE4000 will lift the trailer 2"-3" alone. So, I will add the SRE4000, MORryde heavy duty shackle and wet bolt kit, and replace all of the leaf springs.
All in, it's under $1k in parts and it will help the ride quality while adding longevity.
After this I will re-evaluate everything, I think it should be very close with my current observations.
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Old 09-01-2020, 04:26 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moosehog View Post
I am also trying to lift our 5th wheel and would appreciate any suggestions.
Tow vehicle: 2019 Ram 3500, no lift, but 35" tires.
5th Wheel: 2018 Keystone Fuzion 371
Front is currently riding about 3-4 inches high.
Open to any options.
Anyone know of a shop in the Sacramento area of CA that does trailer lifts?
Fabricators here in SLC weld a 4 piece frame to the existing frame like a box to get 4" or more of lift then reattach the running gear to the new thicker frame. I'm probably not explaining it too well, but a good welding shop will know what to do. I want to have our Cougar raised but the DW won't give me any ammo for the 'ol "buck-zooka"
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Old 09-01-2020, 05:13 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moosehog View Post
I am also trying to lift our 5th wheel and would appreciate any suggestions.
Tow vehicle: 2019 Ram 3500, no lift, but 35" tires.
5th Wheel: 2018 Keystone Fuzion 371
Front is currently riding about 3-4 inches high.
Open to any options.
Anyone know of a shop in the Sacramento area of CA that does trailer lifts?
Hi Moose,
What shocks do you have in the front and rear, do you have air bags in the rear? I would think 4 Bilstein 5100's and a set of ride right air bags would do the trick. Just a thought, would help it ride nice when unhitched as well.
Dan
Sorry, you were talking about the trailer? It looks level from where I'm sitting, the truck, not so much. I think needs a little something though.
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Old 09-01-2020, 07:43 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moosehog View Post
I am also trying to lift our 5th wheel and would appreciate any suggestions.
Tow vehicle: 2019 Ram 3500, no lift, but 35" tires.
5th Wheel: 2018 Keystone Fuzion 371
Front is currently riding about 3-4 inches high.
Open to any options.
Anyone know of a shop in the Sacramento area of CA that does trailer lifts?
Looks like you are already 13'2" tall. If you lift it make sue you stay under 13'6".
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Old 09-01-2020, 08:01 PM   #36
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I put 2" blocks on my trailer and now I'm level and don't drag the back end of the trailer. I got the kits from www.trailerblocks.com , and the kit included the blocks, four 9/16" U-bolts and two new plates that the U-bolts go through for each axle. This company is in Canada, so the prices are in Canadian dollars, so don't let that scare you, as US dollars are less. I found, once I got the trailer level, it rides much better, brakes also seem better, and I don't experience any sway or instability. Very happy that I did this, just wish I had done it years ago. Oh, and this photo was taken prior to cutting off the excess threads of the U-bolts. Also, as the lift is at the axles, the front of the fifth wheel did not change so the highest point at the front A/C is still close to the same height, but the rear is now probably four inches higher.
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Old 09-01-2020, 08:14 PM   #37
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Hi Moose,
What shocks do you have in the front and rear, do you have air bags in the rear? I would think 4 Bilstein 5100's and a set of ride right air bags would do the trick. Just a thought, would help it ride nice when unhitched as well.
Dan
Sorry, you were talking about the trailer? It looks level from where I'm sitting, the truck, not so much. I think needs a little something though.
I was about to post about the truck, you beat me to it!
Maybe some tractor weights on the front bumper to put the front tires back on the ground.
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Old 09-02-2020, 12:42 PM   #38
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Thank you all for your thoughts. Anyone installed a kit?

I have raised my Springdale with homemade 2" blocks. No problems aside from finding the correct diameter U bolts.


Any questions? Ask away...
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Old 09-03-2020, 07:25 AM   #39
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There are two considerations for lifting your trailer. The first is trailer height. The lift should not exceed the height limit of the state of registration. Second is welding. When welding onto the frame you're not just doing add-ons, you're modifying the vehicle chassis. It would be an area of concern should the vehicle be involved in a highway accident. I doubt very seriously that Keystone would get involved when an uncertified action to the trailer's chassis was/is involved in an accident.

https://fifthwheelst.com/rv-size-lim...t-laws-us.html
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Old 11-23-2021, 02:07 PM   #40
DianeV
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Low front 5th wheel jacks

We just purchased. 2021 keystone avalanche and the front jacks sit inches above the ground. We are towing with a Ford F-250 super duty. We are in the process of getting the truck lifted with springs and airbags but we have a long way to go. What a terrible design that the front jacks are so low. Any other suggestions?
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