Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 

Go Back   Keystone RV Forums > Keystone Fleet | Keystone RV Models > Fifth Wheels
Click Here to Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 01-27-2019, 03:56 PM   #41
JRTJH
Site Team
 
JRTJH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 26,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by Modifier View Post
Towing over the GVWR is NOT a good idea under any circumstances but too many people do it anyway. For this reason manufactures understate the allowable weight but this should NEVER be depended on. Better be safe than sorry.
I've heard this on many forums and in comments made by people who don't reveal their sources or their credentials which would indicate that they may "actually know what they're saying".... I've NEVER seen a statement anywhere from a vehicle manufacturer or contained in any owner's manual or owner's information packet or in any sales brochure that indicates that there is even one pound of "unadvertised or undocumented GVW, GCWR or trailer weight capacity allowance".

If you have any reference material to substantiate that any GVW is "understated" and by "how much", please post the sources. I think we all would like to know how much "extra" we have that isn't on the GVW sticker...
__________________
John



2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
JRTJH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2019, 04:33 PM   #42
77cruiser
Gone Traveling
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Frostbite Falls
Posts: 325
This summer I'll axle out mine & come on here & see how bad I get scolded.
77cruiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2019, 06:13 PM   #43
notanlines
Senior Member
 
notanlines's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Germantown, TN
Posts: 6,308
Cruiser, if we weren't ragging at people about something then what would we come here for? And you need to be quick with the weighing. Being from Int'l Falls you only get two days of summer. (Big grin emoji inserted here)
__________________
Jim in Memphis, Wife of 51 years is Brenda
2019 F450 6.7 Powerstroke
2018 Mobile Suites 40RSSA
2021 40' Jayco Eagle
2001 Road king w/matching Harley sidecar
2021 Yamaha X2 Wolverine 1000
notanlines is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2019, 06:59 PM   #44
77cruiser
Gone Traveling
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Frostbite Falls
Posts: 325
Had a whole week last summer. Had snow on the ground till about the 1st of May though. -44 this morning.
But I am curious to see what it weight loaded up I was gonna do it last year but never got to it.
77cruiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2019, 07:40 PM   #45
rhagfo
Senior Member
 
rhagfo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,176
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
I've heard this on many forums and in comments made by people who don't reveal their sources or their credentials which would indicate that they may "actually know what they're saying".... I've NEVER seen a statement anywhere from a vehicle manufacturer or contained in any owner's manual or owner's information packet or in any sales brochure that indicates that there is even one pound of "unadvertised or undocumented GVW, GCWR or trailer weight capacity allowance".

If you have any reference material to substantiate that any GVW is "understated" and by "how much", please post the sources. I think we all would like to know how much "extra" we have that isn't on the GVW sticker...
Well just because I have been known to stir the pot from time to time, it seems that at the same trim level an F350 will have a higher payload than a F450. Ponder that for a moment.

Both the F350 & F450 have a max GVWR of 14,000#, the F450 is more stoutly built.
__________________
Russ & Paula and Belle the Beagle.
2016 Ram Laramie 3500 DRW 14,000# GVWR (New TV)
2005 Copper Canyon 293 FWSLS 32’ GVWR 12,360
Visit and enjoy Oregon State Parks
rhagfo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2019, 07:53 PM   #46
sourdough
Site Team
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: W. Texas
Posts: 17,599
I think what John is saying is....just what you seem to be saying; So the 350 is as stout, or more so, than the 450 - "it seems that at the same trim level an F350 will have a higher payload than a F450. Ponder that for a moment.". "The F350 and F450 have the same max gvwr of 14,000, the F450 is more stoutly built".

Those are your assertions; can you verify that with Ford documents....correspondence? To me, you seem to say that the 350 is as capable, or more so, than a 450 based on .....?? I would really like to see Ford's response to that. If it was the case...why would they even make the 2 weight levels...which is what they are?? With your confidence I'm sure they have provided detailed information to back up your claims??? Just sayin....
__________________
Danny and Susan, wife of 56 years
2019 Ram 3500 Laramie CC SWB SB 6.4 4x4 4.10
2020 Montana High Country 331RL
sourdough is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2019, 08:09 PM   #47
rhagfo
Senior Member
 
rhagfo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,176
Quote:
Originally Posted by sourdough View Post
I think what John is saying is....just what you seem to be saying; So the 350 is as stout, or more so, than the 450 - "it seems that at the same trim level an F350 will have a higher payload than a F450. Ponder that for a moment.". "The F350 and F450 have the same max gvwr of 14,000, the F450 is more stoutly built".

Those are your assertions; can you verify that with Ford documents....correspondence? To me, you seem to say that the 350 is as capable, or more so, than a 450 based on .....?? I would really like to see Ford's response to that. If it was the case...why would they even make the 2 weight levels...which is what they are?? With your confidence I'm sure they have provided detailed information to back up your claims??? Just sayin....
Currently a fact the F350 and F450 max out at 14,000# GVWR. The F450 will have 10 lug 19.5 wheels and tires, larger heaver frame, hence less payload. Yet a truly more capable vehicle.
__________________
Russ & Paula and Belle the Beagle.
2016 Ram Laramie 3500 DRW 14,000# GVWR (New TV)
2005 Copper Canyon 293 FWSLS 32’ GVWR 12,360
Visit and enjoy Oregon State Parks
rhagfo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2019, 08:20 PM   #48
rhagfo
Senior Member
 
rhagfo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,176
Well to add to this discussion, even I think the guy in post #79 of this thread is crazy. Yep Bagged it and tows a likely 21,000# 5er with a F250, states stock tires! The DRV list a dry weight of 19,000# and is 43' long, it is a triple axle unit.

http://www.irv2.com/forums/f44/best-...-370205-6.html
__________________
Russ & Paula and Belle the Beagle.
2016 Ram Laramie 3500 DRW 14,000# GVWR (New TV)
2005 Copper Canyon 293 FWSLS 32’ GVWR 12,360
Visit and enjoy Oregon State Parks
rhagfo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2019, 08:18 AM   #49
travelin texans
Senior Member
 
travelin texans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Picacho, Az
Posts: 6,809
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhagfo View Post
Well to add to this discussion, even I think the guy in post #79 of this thread is crazy. Yep Bagged it and tows a likely 21,000# 5er with a F250, states stock tires! The DRV list a dry weight of 19,000# and is 43' long, it is a triple axle unit.

http://www.irv2.com/forums/f44/best-...-370205-6.html
That idiot needs a crew of escort vehicles in front & behind him as he goes down the highway warning folks to clear a path. With that beast he needs the F450 at minimum, possibly a MDT.
Wonder if anyone has tried to tell him that huge Hellwig bar & airbags don't add one ounce of payload, but actually lost a 100+/- lbs by adding them. Not to mention it appears to be a short bed, so the hitch is slightly behind the rear axle which makes it even worse on that heavy of a 5er.
__________________
Full-timed 10+ years
Sold '13 Redwood FB
Traded '13 GMC Denali DRW D/A
Replacement undetermined
travelin texans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2019, 01:34 PM   #50
shoooey
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Ontario
Posts: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoking View Post
Here is a post made by Wadcutter on NV.net on 1/21/19.

Please! Let's stick with what is actually the law and not what someone think the law says or wishes the law said just to support their unsupported argument. People who spout off that stuff have never read a law or most likely even know where to look for it even if they could understand what they read.
No LEO is going to give him a ticket for being over the manufacturer's GVWR. There's a very simple reason why. The manufacturer's GVWR is a rating by the manufacturer. It's not a legal weight limit. Manufacturers do not make the law. It is a non-enforceable rating used only by the manufacturer for their ratings. It's not a legal document and has no bearing on legal weights.
I didn't get my knowledge from listening to some fat guy in a flannel shirt sitting around a campfire. I taught truck laws and weight laws for a lot of years. I was recognized by the courts and FMCS as an expert in truck laws and weights. If a person is going to use a legal comment to support their personal opinion then post the statute. At least it might show the person knows what they're talking about.
I have to stop at the house and grab my boots for the bs in this post. Every time I have been stopped at a DOT stop, they always open the drivers door and check the tag. Then they check the registration. A vehicle can never exceed the manufacturers GVWR. Ever. An aftermarket company, certified to do so, can modify a vehicle to change the GVWR, and this is reported to the DMV.

The likelihood of been checked towing a camper recreational is basically nil, however, the delivery trucks, get checked and weighed all the time.

I tow a 44' gooseneck with a 30,000 gvwr, along with my f-350 dually, Ive scaled at 43,000. So I know a little about towing.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	LE88AQt1SvCIzC%m0ky1eQ.jpg
Views:	160
Size:	312.3 KB
ID:	20047   Click image for larger version

Name:	oSa86hcrR3iEYVQvLj86VA.jpg
Views:	127
Size:	307.9 KB
ID:	20048  
shoooey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2019, 01:34 PM   #51
OregonDuck
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: West Linn
Posts: 69
I can appreciate how many of you may grow tired of thread after thread discussing GVWR. That said, I really appreciate them and want to thank all of you as I have learned a ton from them ("ton" pun intended )

Because.... I am yet another that bought my TV specifically for my RV, only to learn after the fact that I was an uneducated buyer on all weights which must be considered when buying said TV (2013 Ford F250, 4x4 Diesel, Lariat). And although I could argue I was directly misinformed by both TV and RV dealerships on this "half-ton" tow-able 5th wheel, I don't blame them. I should have educated myself and done more research.

To the OP; Yes, I do keep very close watch on all measures now, hitting the scales often. Thus far, I am usually around 100-200 lbs over GVWR. I have my own spreadsheet now too, as many of you do. An exercise that I should have done prior to purchase and now serves as my daily reminder to find a way to purchase another truck.

Last weight fully loaded, fully gassed incl propane tanks topped off, I was:
  • over 140 lbs GVWR
  • under by 320 lbs front GAWR
  • under 840 lbs rear GAWR
  • under 6360 lbs GCVWR
  • under on tires by 1308 lbs front and 1118 lbs rear.

I squat 2" when hooked up.

I had a gent tell me recently that the only difference between my F250 and a F350 was the rear block height and potentially springs... that all other structural/mechanical elements were identical. "Get some bags and you've built a 350 out of your 250." I've been unable to confirm his comments are valid, and understand the sticker rules all anyhow. I am pissed as I could have just as easily purchased a 350 at the time. I'm now adding bags to at least ride level (adding 60 lbs to my issue), and broke out a new piggy bank to start saving for a one-ton.
OregonDuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2019, 02:51 PM   #52
travelin texans
Senior Member
 
travelin texans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Picacho, Az
Posts: 6,809
Quote:
Originally Posted by OregonDuck View Post
I can appreciate how many of you may grow tired of thread after thread discussing GVWR. That said, I really appreciate them and want to thank all of you as I have learned a ton from them ("ton" pun intended )

Because.... I am yet another that bought my TV specifically for my RV, only to learn after the fact that I was an uneducated buyer on all weights which must be considered when buying said TV (2013 Ford F250, 4x4 Diesel, Lariat). And although I could argue I was directly misinformed by both TV and RV dealerships on this "half-ton" tow-able 5th wheel, I don't blame them. I should have educated myself and done more research.

To the OP; Yes, I do keep very close watch on all measures now, hitting the scales often. Thus far, I am usually around 100-200 lbs over GVWR. I have my own spreadsheet now too, as many of you do. An exercise that I should have done prior to purchase and now serves as my daily reminder to find a way to purchase another truck.

Last weight fully loaded, fully gassed incl propane tanks topped off, I was:
  • over 140 lbs GVWR
  • under by 320 lbs front GAWR
  • under 840 lbs rear GAWR
  • under 6360 lbs GCVWR
  • under on tires by 1308 lbs front and 1118 lbs rear.

I squat 2" when hooked up.

I had a gent tell me recently that the only difference between my F250 and a F350 was the rear block height and potentially springs... that all other structural/mechanical elements were identical. "Get some bags and you've built a 350 out of your 250." I've been unable to confirm his comments are valid, and understand the sticker rules all anyhow. I am pissed as I could have just as easily purchased a 350 at the time. I'm now adding bags to at least ride level (adding 60 lbs to my issue), and broke out a new piggy bank to start saving for a one-ton.
Once you've added air bags you've made a F250 into a F250 with air bags. Which is what that guy that told you that is, an air bag.
Although if you read the link above, if you add air bags & a bigger sway bar your short bed F250 will haul a 20k+ 5er down the road all day long & you'll never know it's back there. If you believe that I've got some ocean front property in Arizona I'd like to unload.
__________________
Full-timed 10+ years
Sold '13 Redwood FB
Traded '13 GMC Denali DRW D/A
Replacement undetermined
travelin texans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2019, 05:48 PM   #53
OregonDuck
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: West Linn
Posts: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by travelin texans View Post
Which is what that guy that told you that is, an air bag.
LOL! He was an air bag

So this intrigues me:

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoooey View Post
An aftermarket company, certified to do so, can modify a vehicle to change the GVWR, and this is reported to the DMV.
I want to live within the yellow sticker. I've been looking at F350's, here just 6 months after purchasing my F250. But if the air bag fella holds any truth to the two vehicles being similar with the exception of an upgraded suspension, could I get this done and certified by someone; get my F250 a sticker that matches my rig? Anyone with any experience as to cost comparisons between the two? Silly to consider; just buy a new truck?
OregonDuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2019, 06:32 PM   #54
CWtheMan
Senior Member
 
CWtheMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Taylors, SC
Posts: 3,031
Vehicle modification... Part 567.7 applies.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/...l5-part567.xml
CWtheMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2019, 06:56 PM   #55
sourdough
Site Team
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: W. Texas
Posts: 17,599
Quote:
Originally Posted by OregonDuck View Post
LOL! He was an air bag

So this intrigues me:



I want to live within the yellow sticker. I've been looking at F350's, here just 6 months after purchasing my F250. But if the air bag fella holds any truth to the two vehicles being similar with the exception of an upgraded suspension, could I get this done and certified by someone; get my F250 a sticker that matches my rig? Anyone with any experience as to cost comparisons between the two? Silly to consider; just buy a new truck?

If you are upside down on the weights of your truck, adding airbags will do nothing to decrease that. You might replace all the springs, mounts, axles etc. and get some things done that would increase the carrying weight, to a minimal degree. Me? I would just buy a new truck and KNOW what I've got.
JMO/YMMV
__________________
Danny and Susan, wife of 56 years
2019 Ram 3500 Laramie CC SWB SB 6.4 4x4 4.10
2020 Montana High Country 331RL
sourdough is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2019, 07:17 PM   #56
rhagfo
Senior Member
 
rhagfo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,176
Quote:
Originally Posted by OregonDuck View Post
I can appreciate how many of you may grow tired of thread after thread discussing GVWR. That said, I really appreciate them and want to thank all of you as I have learned a ton from them ("ton" pun intended )

Because.... I am yet another that bought my TV specifically for my RV, only to learn after the fact that I was an uneducated buyer on all weights which must be considered when buying said TV (2013 Ford F250, 4x4 Diesel, Lariat). And although I could argue I was directly misinformed by both TV and RV dealerships on this "half-ton" tow-able 5th wheel, I don't blame them. I should have educated myself and done more research.

To the OP; Yes, I do keep very close watch on all measures now, hitting the scales often. Thus far, I am usually around 100-200 lbs over GVWR. I have my own spreadsheet now too, as many of you do. An exercise that I should have done prior to purchase and now serves as my daily reminder to find a way to purchase another truck.

Last weight fully loaded, fully gassed incl propane tanks topped off, I was:
  • over 140 lbs GVWR
  • under by 320 lbs front GAWR
  • under 840 lbs rear GAWR
  • under 6360 lbs GCVWR
  • under on tires by 1308 lbs front and 1118 lbs rear.

I squat 2" when hooked up.

I had a gent tell me recently that the only difference between my F250 and a F350 was the rear block height and potentially springs... that all other structural/mechanical elements were identical. "Get some bags and you've built a 350 out of your 250." I've been unable to confirm his comments are valid, and understand the sticker rules all anyhow. I am pissed as I could have just as easily purchased a 350 at the time. I'm now adding bags to at least ride level (adding 60 lbs to my issue), and broke out a new piggy bank to start saving for a one-ton.
Well the Gent forgot to mention two items;
1. TIRES! Not all 250/2500's come stock with tires the same capacity as a 350/3500 SRW. Still will not change the number on the VIN sticker.
2. Hungry lawyers! While depending on the DOT in your state over GVWR may or may not be a violation of a state law, BUT a hungry lawyer may be willing to take you to court for exceeding GVWR.

Number 2 was always in the back of my mind towing our Copper Canyon with the 2001 Ram at well over GVWR. At fault or not, there is always that possibility you will be sued.
__________________
Russ & Paula and Belle the Beagle.
2016 Ram Laramie 3500 DRW 14,000# GVWR (New TV)
2005 Copper Canyon 293 FWSLS 32’ GVWR 12,360
Visit and enjoy Oregon State Parks
rhagfo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2019, 02:10 PM   #57
hdsr4me2
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Phoenix,Arizona
Posts: 1
I've towed my 11200 pound montana with 2005 Ram 2500. It is well within the towing capacity and pin weight for my truck IAW Dodges towing specs.
hdsr4me2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2019, 10:00 AM   #58
mlarryeliz
Junior Member
 
mlarryeliz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Edinburg
Posts: 13
Hey OregonDuck, I feel your pain. I feel ashamed that I didn't totally understand the limits of my 2019 F250 Lariat Diesel. The combination of my F250 and my Sprinter 3531FWDEN appeared adequate "on paper" but in reality I ended up 1,200# OVER GVWR and right under rear GAWR. The GCVWR was ok and the tow weight was ok BUT GVWR was not good. Fortunately (on several accounts) I had a Ford dealer that didn't ding me very hard on the trade of my F250 Lariat and there just happened to be a 2019 F350 Lariat Ultimate DRW (with 2600 miles) that had just been traded in. [Dr. owned it and wanted a King Ranch rather than the Lariat]. All in all I traded for $7k difference and now I am well within my weight limits. I also rest easier knowing that I am nowhere near any weight limits. I can say that I learned an expensive lesson but now I fully understand towing weights and their potential limitations--and potential liabilities. I just wanted to let you know that you are not alone in this dilemma.
Blessings!
__________________
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Larry & Sylvia
2019 F-350 Lariat Crew Cab DRW Diesel FX4
2018 Sprinter 3531FWDEN
#Practicing4Retirement
mlarryeliz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2019, 01:18 AM   #59
Fishsizzle
Senior Member
 
Fishsizzle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,138
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlarryeliz View Post
Hey OregonDuck, I feel your pain. I feel ashamed that I didn't totally understand the limits of my 2019 F250 Lariat Diesel. The combination of my F250 and my Sprinter 3531FWDEN appeared adequate "on paper" but in reality I ended up 1,200# OVER GVWR and right under rear GAWR. The GCVWR was ok and the tow weight was ok BUT GVWR was not good. Fortunately (on several accounts) I had a Ford dealer that didn't ding me very hard on the trade of my F250 Lariat and there just happened to be a 2019 F350 Lariat Ultimate DRW (with 2600 miles) that had just been traded in. [Dr. owned it and wanted a King Ranch rather than the Lariat]. All in all I traded for $7k difference and now I am well within my weight limits. I also rest easier knowing that I am nowhere near any weight limits. I can say that I learned an expensive lesson but now I fully understand towing weights and their potential limitations--and potential liabilities. I just wanted to let you know that you are not alone in this dilemma.
Blessings!
There are many of us!
Fishsizzle is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
tow, towing

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates in any way. Keystone RV® is a registered trademark of the Keystone RV Company.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.