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Old 12-16-2019, 11:11 AM   #1
Twisties
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2020 Cougar 30 RLS Solar and Inverter- Revisited

I really only have two questions:

1. I understand that an inverter can be wired directly to the battery array to get it's DC in. I want to wire the 120V output to the pre-wire for the three receptacles that are supposed to be in the unit. I don't know what this pre-wire looks like or where to find it. Getting an inverter installed before we hit the road is mandatory, or I can't sleep without shore power, so this is the #1 need. Yes, I know I could wire a receptacle on my own, or just put in a 12V cig lighter outlet and use that, but this pre-wiring should be there somewhere, and would let us use the tv and kitchen appliances, so I'd like to find and use it.

2. I understand the output of the solar charge controller (that I supply) can go directly to the battery array, but I need to find the where the rooftop wiring terminates (where to place the solar charge controller).

Ok, here is the earlier thread from before we picked up the 30RLS.

http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums...ad.php?t=40660

Here is the link to what Keystone says the 2020's have, which includes roof top solar prep, inverter prep, and three 120V outlets pre-wired for inverter output. (We have the prep, not the full OTG camping package):

https://www.keystonerv.com/fifth-whe...9&brandCode=CG

I can confirm that on the roof is a z-amp two port gland.

And here are some pics of the unit:



I looked here first, in the basement, thinking there would be some nicely labeled wiring...



I am learning the Keystone way... arrgggg.....

I took off the panel you are seeing above, and found only Lippert Auto-Level wiring. Also in the roof of the basement was a junction box. I removed the cover and found this:



I have no idea what this is, well, I'm hoping it goes to the rooftop solar, but I don't know. So, it was off to the battery compartment....







and, here is my shopping list, for critique and review:

Renogy 2000W 12V Pure Sine Wave Battery Converter, ETL Listed with Built-in 5V/2.1A USB port,and AC Hardwire Port Solar Power Inverter (CPAP only takes about 90W, but this would let us use wife's espresso maker and hair dryer, maybe a vacuum cleaner (one at a time) on battery power.)

Renogy Advanced Rover Li 40 Amp 12V/24V DC Input MPPT Solar Charge Controller with Bluetooth and LCD screen and multiple LED indicators


Renogy 4 Sets of Solar Panel Mounting Z Brackets for RV, Boat, Wall and Other Off Gird Roof Installation, 4 Pack (need to figure out how to mount these without leaks - roof is Alpha)

4 of these: Texas Solar 100 Watt Polycrystalline 100W 12V Poly Solar Panel Module RV Marine Boat Yacht Off GridWaterproof Hail-Proof

Plus mc4 connectors, solar wire, mc4 crimp tool, and other odds and ends.
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Old 12-17-2019, 04:16 PM   #2
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Getting assistance from Zamp. Very helpful. Apparently the wiring is supposed to be inside the black plastic blister....
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Old 12-17-2019, 06:33 PM   #3
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Interesting, guess they've changed a few things and added some wiring for solar in your model year.

I only had a Furrion connector wired to a 10A fuse to the battery area in my 2019 315RLS.

Are the 3 solar receptacles color coded differently? Where are they located? Bedroom, living room. I would guess.

Your 2 batteries, (I think 2 x 6V) will be put to the test for sure, pulling 90W all night will fully drain them overnight, well in about 10 hours. You only have 110AH to play with ... 50% of capacity.

Coffee maker, TV, vacuum, hair dryer... No way. Not enough Amp Hours.

From the looks of it, seems you'll be dry camping quite a bit. I would suggest at least 4 or 6 batteries.

I do not dry camp that much myself and have a generator if stuck.
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Old 12-18-2019, 10:05 AM   #4
Twisties
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Yes, we were planning on 4 batteries eventually. Also, the CPAP doesn't take that much, I used the rated output of my 12V to 24V step up transformer, 90W. I think the actual CPAP takes less than 1 amp with the water heater off. I can tell you that I have run similar units on a 10.5 ah battery for 8 hours without problem. The Li-ion battery sold to power it overnight is rated 97 wh... so I guess that's 8 ah at 12V. The other appliances are high draw, but used only briefly.

Anyway, I guess some progress from Zamp... We've confirmed that part of solar prep is missing from my unit.

Also, someone asked earlier how the three 120V pre-wired for inverter receptacles work. I got an answer to that.



This white wire comes from the power converter and goes to the 3 pre-wired receptacles. To install the inverter you would cut the wire, and wire both ends into the inverter. When the inverter is off and shore power is on, the power would pass through to the receptacles. When shore power is off and the inverter on, the receptacles would be powered by the inverter.

The specified inverter is a Xantrex 1200W 550595.
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Old 12-18-2019, 10:14 AM   #5
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Actually, I guess that's Keystone part number on the inverter. From what I'm seeing it's of a type called a switching inverter.
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Old 12-18-2019, 10:24 AM   #6
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This pic could be helpful.
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Old 02-01-2020, 10:16 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisties View Post
Getting assistance from Zamp. Very helpful. Apparently the wiring is supposed to be inside the black plastic blister....
Did you ever find where the wiring from the rooftop port were at? (My guess is they were coming down from the roof somewhere where the sewer vents are and coiled up near there behind the bay bulkhead?

Also did the Zamp solar port on the roof need a special plug or can you just plug in a standard MC4 plug into it?

Can you post your completed project too? ;-)
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Old 02-01-2020, 10:21 PM   #8
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Looking closer at your photos... What are the black & red wires in this photo - Are these the wires that Come from the roof port? And where do the run to off the bottom of the photo?

Also the white wires in the box would seem to be the 110v romex wires that need to be spliced into for the inverter (with transfer switch) but I see no labeling of romex wire showing which direction is the power source and which the outlet direction?
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Old 02-02-2020, 02:06 AM   #9
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Also check out this 2000w inverter... It has a built in transfer switch and accepts standard 110v wiring... (Can be found cheaper on Amazon)

https://www.aimscorp.net/2000-pure-s...standards.html
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Old 02-02-2020, 07:39 AM   #10
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So, to identify which way to wire the white wire after cutting it, one would just connect shore power and see which side is hot with a volt meter, or do a connectivity check with an ohm meter.

Yes, I'm reasonably sure the red and black wire is from the rooftop to the battery, but have not confirmed.

In the end, my dealer was supposed to add the missing components under warranty. However, it turned out they had a full Zamp/Cougar panel, charge controller, inverter kit in stock that they were able to discount. I grabbed a second Zamp panel from Back Country Solar, and the dealer installed it all for me. Eventually, I'll get in there and see exactly what the dealer did and get some photos, but probably not for a while.
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Old 02-03-2020, 05:31 AM   #11
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However, it turned out they had a full Zamp/Cougar panel, charge controller, inverter kit in stock that they were able to discount. I grabbed a second Zamp panel from Back Country Solar, and the dealer installed it all for me.
What was the discounted, extra panel & install cost?

Yes do post pics of the final install as I am planning the same for a 27SGS
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Old 06-14-2020, 07:16 PM   #12
mikec557
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisties View Post
...

Yes, I'm reasonably sure the red and black wire is from the rooftop to the battery, but have not confirmed.
...
Eventually, I'll get in there and see exactly what the dealer did and get some photos, but probably not for a while.
Twisties
Any chance we can see some pics of the install, particularly where the wires from the rooftop port goes to the solar charge controller?

I'm just looking into mine and I'm wondering if Keystone could have neglected to run wires down from the rooftop to the pass through.

EDIT: I was able to confirm they did not neglect to run the wires down from the rooftop by measuring for voltage on the rooftop. Yep, 12v present. So they did wire it to the batteries. Now I just hope they left a loop in the line I can cut into to put the charge controller in place, and that I can find that loop. Investigation, continuing...

Thanks
Mike
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Old 06-24-2020, 05:30 AM   #13
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I’d also love to see the install - thanks in advance !
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Old 11-10-2020, 03:37 PM   #14
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Hi There
I am waiting for a 2021 Passport 2500RK to arrive. It has a similar OTG solar prep . My question is about the 3 inverter ready outlets that come with the solar prep. The white Romex wiring pictured above goes to these outlets. I have found no mention of a transfer switch in any of the OTG prep research I have done. Does that mean these 3 outlets when wired directly to the inverter are inverter powered only outlets and not useable on shore power? Thx.
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Old 11-10-2020, 04:06 PM   #15
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Hi There
I am waiting for a 2021 Passport 2500RK to arrive. It has a similar OTG solar prep . My question is about the 3 inverter ready outlets that come with the solar prep. The white Romex wiring pictured above goes to these outlets. I have found no mention of a transfer switch in any of the OTG prep research I have done. Does that mean these 3 outlets when wired directly to the inverter are inverter powered only outlets and not useable on shore power? Thx.
RBH

Think of the romex this way. It's like a long extension cord. It comes from a 15a breaker in the RVs breaker/fuse panel (mine is located below the oven). That romex goes to the pass through, makes a big exposed loop*, then goes to the first outlet, then to the second outlet, and then to the third and last outlet.

When you plug in at a campsite it energizes the breaker panel, that line and the three outlets.

You want to install an inverter with shore power bypass (aka pass-through). You cut the romex loop and connect the source from breaker to the IN on the inverter, you connect the romex from the outlets to the OUT of the inverter. And of course you connected the inverter to your batteries.

Now, whether the inverter is ON or OFF, if you plug the camper into shore power, the power from that passes through the inverter to the outlets.

If you're NOT plugged into shore power, and the inverter is off, then there's no 120vac going to the outlets. If you turn on the inverter it will draw power from your batteries and create 120vac and pass that on to the three outlets.

There are inverters that do not have "pass-through". If you use one of those, then your 3 outlets would only work off your batteries. I think it really only makes sense to buy an inverter with the pass through. But I guess that's a decision each has to make for themselves.

By the way, I bought the Xantrex Freedom X 1000 watt true sine wave inverter.

* At first that loop is hidden behind a black plastic clam shell cover.

Mike
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Old 11-10-2020, 04:13 PM   #16
mikec557
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Originally Posted by Westcoastcb View Post
I’d also love to see the install - thanks in advance !
Westcoast, I'm not sure which install you're referring to. But here's what I went through installing in my 2020 26RBSWE...

https://www.keystoneforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42742
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Old 11-10-2020, 04:14 PM   #17
mikec557
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Originally Posted by Westcoastcb View Post
I’d also love to see the install - thanks in advance !
Westcoast, I'm not sure which install you're referring to. But here's what I went through installing in my 2020 26RBSWE...

Edit to try to fix link.

https://www.keystoneforums.com/forum...ad.php?t=42742
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Old 11-10-2020, 05:05 PM   #18
RBH
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Mike
Appreciate the reply. I already own a GoPower 1500w pure sine inverter GP-SW1500 so hoping to use that. This inverter does not have the pass thru so if I understand you, I will need a transfer switch to broker power between shore power and the inverter?

your comment
"There are inverters that do not have "pass-through". If you use one of those, then your 3 outlets would only work off your batteries."

If the Romex is routed thru the 15a breaker on the panel would that not create an issue if the inverter was on AND plugged into shore power?

I am amazed at how little info is available from Keystone. When I asked, I was directed to my dealer. My dealer tells me he can't get any info from Keystone? Crazy. Make it easy and the would sell more.

Thx!
Britt
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Old 11-10-2020, 06:46 PM   #19
mikec557
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Mike
Appreciate the reply. I already own a GoPower 1500w pure sine inverter GP-SW1500 so hoping to use that. This inverter does not have the pass thru so if I understand you, I will need a transfer switch to broker power between shore power and the inverter?

your comment
"There are inverters that do not have "pass-through". If you use one of those, then your 3 outlets would only work off your batteries."

If the Romex is routed thru the 15a breaker on the panel would that not create an issue if the inverter was on AND plugged into shore power?

I am amazed at how little info is available from Keystone. When I asked, I was directed to my dealer. My dealer tells me he can't get any info from Keystone? Crazy. Make it easy and the would sell more.

Thx!
Britt
Britt

Nothing wrong with trying to save money by using what you've got.

There's high tech solutions and low tech solutions. It always comes down to what someone's comfortable with. I'm just shooting from the hip here but here's what I'm thinking.

High tech: buy a power transfer switch. Upside: should work seamlessly and switch to the right source to power the three outlets that are downstream. Downside is complexity to install and cost. But definitely doable.

Low tech: you manually select which power source to use to power the three outlets, like this. Cut the loop of romex. Using the end coming from the breaker, use it to install a electrical outlet on wall inside the pass through. That gives you a 120vac electrical outlet when connected to shore power. Install your inverter. I assume your inverter has a 120vac outlet on it. Now you have two sources of 120vac. Now take the other end of the romex that is connected to the 3 outlets. If you put a male "extension cord" end on it, you can simply choose which source to plug your outlets into. Think of it as an extension cord with a male end and three outlets at the other end. I know putting a plug end on romex is not a great idea, but maybe connect it to flexible extension cord inside of a junction box. Then use the flexible male cord end to plug into your outlet of choice.

<<If the Romex is routed thru the 15a breaker on the panel would that not create an issue if the inverter was on AND plugged into shore power? >>

If I understand your question, no there's no danger, if and only if, you are using 1) an auto transfer switch with your inverter OR 2) an inverter with (auto) pass through. Both the ATS and inverter with pass through are designed to prioritize shore power to power the outlets. If no shore power then pull from the inverter and thus pull from your batteries. In the low tech approach, you have to go move the male plug to the right source outlet (shore power or inverter).

Does that make sense?
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Old 11-11-2020, 06:02 AM   #20
flybouy
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Britt

Nothing wrong with trying to save money by using what you've got.

There's high tech solutions and low tech solutions. It always comes down to what someone's comfortable with. I'm just shooting from the hip here but here's what I'm thinking.

High tech: buy a power transfer switch. Upside: should work seamlessly and switch to the right source to power the three outlets that are downstream. Downside is complexity to install and cost. But definitely doable.

Low tech: you manually select which power source to use to power the three outlets, like this. Cut the loop of romex. Using the end coming from the breaker, use it to install a electrical outlet on wall inside the pass through. That gives you a 120vac electrical outlet when connected to shore power. Install your inverter. I assume your inverter has a 120vac outlet on it. Now you have two sources of 120vac. Now take the other end of the romex that is connected to the 3 outlets. If you put a male "extension cord" end on it, you can simply choose which source to plug your outlets into. Think of it as an extension cord with a male end and three outlets at the other end. I know putting a plug end on romex is not a great idea, but maybe connect it to flexible extension cord inside of a junction box. Then use the flexible male cord end to plug into your outlet of choice.

<<If the Romex is routed thru the 15a breaker on the panel would that not create an issue if the inverter was on AND plugged into shore power? >>

If I understand your question, no there's no danger, if and only if, you are using 1) an auto transfer switch with your inverter OR 2) an inverter with (auto) pass through. Both the ATS and inverter with pass through are designed to prioritize shore power to power the outlets. If no shore power then pull from the inverter and thus pull from your batteries. In the low tech approach, you have to go move the male plug to the right source outlet (shore power or inverter).

Does that make sense?
This an EXTREMLY dangerous practice. It takes one time to get electrocuted and stop your heart. If you want to go that route install a male 15 Amp feed just like the 30 or 50 Amp feeds found on the side of the trailers. Then a standard 15 Amp extension cord can be plugged in.

But that method still leads to the real possibility of forgetting to unplug. Feeding the same circuit with two sources is a recipe for disaster. They will be out of phase and potentially induce 240v thru the circuit before it smokes and burns.

The "cheap" safe way is to install a 2 pole, 2 way, center off switch in between the two feeds.
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