Go Back   Keystone RV Forums > Keystone Fleet | Keystone RV Models > Lite Weight Trailers
Click Here to Login

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 11-03-2019, 07:00 AM   #41
JRTJH
Site Team
 
JRTJH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 16,470
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjsurfer View Post
I'm curious how you supported the HDPE panels, are they screwed into the bottom panel or are you relying on the caulking to hold it up?

Thanks

Ron W.
If you scroll back to page 2 of this thread, the explanation of how the HPDE panels are installed, complete with photos, is "hiding in plain sight".....
__________________

__________________
John



2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
JRTJH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 08:42 AM   #42
danf
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: burlington
Posts: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by German Shepherd Guy View Post

The 2018 we have was to replace a 2007 Keystone where the floor had rotted out, and it was they same system as is now being used. I replaced the whole bedroom area and it looked good, and was an improvement but it was easy to see that the rot was creeping and more significant than just the bedroom area and though I though it would be good for 5 more years I

How did you fix it? I've been thinking for a while about how to fix these floors when you have to replace the entire floor.


I'm currently thinking about only having a bottom layer in the wheel well areas. As far as I can tell, you have to :


- shim 1/4" between the trailer frame and floor frame to replace the rotted bottom layer of wood.

- possibly shim 1/4" along the exterior walls depending on how the outside walls are attached to the floor.
- deal with floor elevation due to slideouts. Either you have to use a 1/4" top layer or you might get away with something thicker depending on how much room you have on the slideout's top seal. You might be able to get away with up to a 3/4" top layer, but that would change the dynamics of the top seal. That means the slideout would sit 1/2" higher and one would likely have to move the cables.

- possibly deal with interior wall height if you use something thicker for a top layer. This is probably not a huge problem.

- deal with floor to ceiling wall cabinet height. These could be trimmed of just use 1/4 under these cabinets.



I've thought about 1/4 steel or aluminum or up to 3/4" marine grade plywood as a top layer. Steel adds a lot of weight and probably is not practical. The aluminum is pricey at ~$300 for a 4'x8' sheet. The plywood has the change in floor height problem.



Anywayyou cut it, it's a huge PITA.



I'm also wondering if there is somebody out there who fixes these floors or do all these trade ins, returns to factory, etc with bad floors just get scrapped?
__________________

danf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2019, 01:20 PM   #43
SummitPond
Senior Member
 
SummitPond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Northeast Florida/Southeast Maine
Posts: 589
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
I agree. The reason that Keystone and most other RV manufacturers developed the "substantially lighter (and weaker) floor" was to provide consumers with a 32' travel trailer that weighs in under 5500 pounds. They cut corners on strength in the floor system, lightened the thickness of aluminum structures, used thinner mattresses and cushions, thinner vinyl flooring, 20 pound propane tanks (rather than typical 30 pound tanks), PEX rather than copper plumbing lines (likely to be seen as an improvement over copper), TPO rather than galvanized roofing, NOCO "unibody" frame rather than heavier steel I-beam frame, "innovative" insulation (bubble wrap) rather than fiberglass, smaller holding tanks and even thinner, lighter materials for the exterior of the trailer.

Essentially, in the "quest to tow a palace with a SUV" the consumer has driven this move to lightweight trailers....

I'd pose a question: Did we screw ourselves and get exactly what we demanded ?????
I'm no gearhead, but it seems to me that Detroit forced the move to manufacture lightweight trailers as their vehicles could no longer haul something substantial.

From the late mid-60s up through the early 70s my folks had a 31 foot (?) Holiday Rambler. No slides. I think it had a mid-ship kitchen; the back had twin beds that could be made into one large bed with a board and using the back cushions to fill. The dinette (as always) made into a bed, as did the up-front couch. I know the trailer was heavy, maybe not built like a tank but it had a metal roof and I suspect a solid wood subfloor. Somehow six of us and a large dog managed to travel around the country, pulled by (at first) a 1964 Ford convertible (don't recall the model); yes - some of us rode in the trailer while it was being pulled. Eventually my folks got a 1970 Plymouth Suburban wagon (no longer needed to ride in the trailer), and in 1972 they traded to a 28 foot Winnebago motorhome (but by then I was gone).

I suspect the trailer industry was adapting so they could continue to sell product to match the predominant (underpowered) tow vehicle most people had at that time.

Does anyone have any statistics on the TV population, meaning % of trucks (heavy duty vs mid-weight), SUVs and whatever else is out there that is up to the job as a function of time? It would be interesting to see if there is a correlation between the TVs and the GVWR of the TTs.
__________________

Now: 2019 Winnebago 2500FL w/e2 WDH;Sold: 2015 Bullet Premier 19FBPR (shown)
2012 Ford F-250 Lariat Super Duty Crew Cab (gas 6.2 L, 3.73 gear ratio 2WD, 172" WB)
SummitPond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2019, 01:40 PM   #44
JRTJH
Site Team
 
JRTJH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 16,470
Quote:
Originally Posted by SummitPond View Post
I'm no gearhead, but it seems to me that Detroit forced the move to manufacture lightweight trailers as their vehicles could no longer haul something substantial.

From the late mid-60s up through the early 70s my folks had a 31 foot (?) Holiday Rambler. No slides. I think it had a mid-ship kitchen; the back had twin beds that could be made into one large bed with a board and using the back cushions to fill. The dinette (as always) made into a bed, as did the up-front couch. I know the trailer was heavy, maybe not built like a tank but it had a metal roof and I suspect a solid wood subfloor. Somehow six of us and a large dog managed to travel around the country, pulled by (at first) a 1964 Ford convertible (don't recall the model); yes - some of us rode in the trailer while it was being pulled. Eventually my folks got a 1970 Plymouth Suburban wagon (no longer needed to ride in the trailer), and in 1972 they traded to a 28 foot Winnebago motorhome (but by then I was gone).

I suspect the trailer industry was adapting so they could continue to sell product to match the predominant (underpowered) tow vehicle most people had at that time.

Does anyone have any statistics on the TV population, meaning % of trucks (heavy duty vs mid-weight), SUVs and whatever else is out there that is up to the job as a function of time? It would be interesting to see if there is a correlation between the TVs and the GVWR of the TTs.
I think it's probably a "circular finger pointing series of events" that caused the evolution to lighter RV's.

The "energy crisis of the '70's" followed by smaller cars that ran on unleaded gas and got better fuel mileage, consumers buying these "smaller, lighter cars and trucks" and demanding a trailer they could pull, the RV industry offering "3 more inches of width" to beat the competition, then the competition offering "1 additional foot of bathroom space" to "one up the wider trailer" and the automobile industry changing to V-6 to replace the V-8, followed by the RV industry switching to rubber roofs to replace the galvanized steel roof, followed by the I-4 engine followed by the "sandwich floor" followed by the smaller I-4 engine coupled to an electric motor followed by the "helium technology" followed by .......

As the "green crowd" grows, the demand for smaller, lighter, fuel efficient cars will continue. If the RV industry is going to remain profitable, they are going to be forced to build smaller, lighter more easily towed RV's.

The question, at least to me, is will we continue to see the "square footage of today's lightweight trailers" or will the size start to shrink because there's just no way to make them lighter with thinner floors as people eat more McDonalds and grow heavier with the same size shoes..... (more pounds per square inch on that thin floor)...

I really don't think anyone in the RV industry (builder, supplier, seller or consumer) has any idea what the RV's will look like in the year 2040...... Certainly it won't be 8,000 pounds, 11'6" tall and 32' long. It may "fold out to that size, but it won't occupy that much space on the highway behind an electric (or nuclear powered) family transport vehicle (assuming we will even be allowed to own a private vehicle because of population overgrowth and lack of funds to build/maintain a highway system.....
__________________
John



2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
JRTJH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2019, 04:21 PM   #45
SummitPond
Senior Member
 
SummitPond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Northeast Florida/Southeast Maine
Posts: 589
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
<clip>
... behind an electric (or nuclear powered) family transport vehicle ...
John

I would love to see a nuclear powered vehicle. It's not all that unrealistic from a technical point-of-view.

NASA article on radioisotope powered systems
New prototype nuclear battery (states energy density is ~3.3 Wh/gram)

This article indicates modern radioisotopic thermal generators can produce about 12 watts/pound (nothing stated on energy density).

A lithium battery produces about 0.265 Wh/gram, thus the new nickel-diamond based battery (2nd link above) sound really enticing; no idea of cost (on any of this!).

Maybe one day ...

Ken
__________________

Now: 2019 Winnebago 2500FL w/e2 WDH;Sold: 2015 Bullet Premier 19FBPR (shown)
2012 Ford F-250 Lariat Super Duty Crew Cab (gas 6.2 L, 3.73 gear ratio 2WD, 172" WB)
SummitPond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2019, 02:13 PM   #46
danf
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: burlington
Posts: 42
So Keystone is coping out and telling me the holes along the frame rail are due to lack of maintenance. What a POS company.



The holes are caused because the cloth gets pinched between the frame and the flooring. As you can see in the picture the bigger hole is along the inside of the frame rail. There are actually smaller holes all along the frame rail, but they don't show well in the picture. It's a manufacturing defect.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_6843.jpg
Views:	32
Size:	137.2 KB
ID:	24476  
danf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2019, 06:07 AM   #47
08quadram
Senior Member
 
08quadram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: NE. Iowa
Posts: 160
One has to wonder what Keystone recommends for maintenance at that location. What a crock. I'm pushing for a new unit with my rotting floor.
__________________
Mike
2017 Ram 1500 Crew Cab 4x4 / 5.7 Hemi / 3.92 axles
2019 Bullet 269RLS
1-wife / 1-dog / 2-kids
08quadram is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2019, 02:05 PM   #48
Sarge2
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Richmond
Posts: 48
I'm wondering if this is a unilateral issue with all RV's

Being new to the RV world, I'm wondering if this or should I say these, issues are across the board throughout the RV industry...
Are there really companies that are better than others? I think this issue with your rotting floors is beyond my comprehension on a vehicle so new...
In fact, a vehicle less 5 years old having any issues like this to me is really bazaar... Am I just too new and naive? Have been in the Automotive world a long time, I've seen a lot of engineering issues, build issues and just plain sloppy work but normally nothing that destroyed the vehicle to the point of falling thru the floor in under two years... or Rotting out in a year or leaking so badly (other than the T-top debacle in the 70's and 80's) that would render the vehicle in need of a nearly frame off repair...
Again, I simply have not had enough experience in this realm to have seen the Good Bad and Ugly side of travel trailers..
Generally speaking can someone educate me on how widespread this is in the industry and how the manufacturers are getting away with it...?
Thanks
Sarge
Sarge2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2019, 03:02 PM   #49
JRTJH
Site Team
 
JRTJH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 16,470
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge2 View Post


Generally speaking can someone educate me on how widespread this is in the industry and how the manufacturers are getting away with it...?
Thanks
Sarge
This is my opinion, not a "peer reviewed policy" regarding the entire RV industry. IMHO, all the major manufacturers are "highly competitive" and they all "use the same industry standards" when building competitive models.

That said, you can buy "ultra-lite RV's" that are, for the most part, built along the same industry standards.

You can buy "medium lite RV's" that are a bit different, heavier and for the most part, are built along an "upgraded industry standard"

You can buy "heavy RV's" that are sturdier, built with solid floors, improved techniques, some better quality equipment, more optional items included as standard build items" and, in some models/brands, improved customer service, warranty support and personalized service.

You're not going to find an "entry level" (AKA CHEAP) RV with all the upgraded build items, a "we'll fix it for you at the factory" concept and things like "factory supported rallies where the factory sends a repair team to offer support to owners, etc...

At Keystone, there's no "annual rally for buyers" (except the Montana rally). They choose to market their trailers about $5000 less than Grand Design models that are similar in build. IMHO, the Cougar and the Solitude are similar in build quality. The difference: With Cougar, you have to fight Keystone to get it fixed while with the Solitude, GD offers an "improved repair under warranty" concept.

It's taken me about 30 years to come to the conclusion that those two trailers are similar in build, and, for some people it's worth the extra cost to have the warranty, for some people, the cheaper price of the Cougar makes it more attractive....

Just as "years ago, you could buy a Buick or a Pontiac and get luxury" or you could "buy a Chevrolet and get the basics"...

In the RV world, if you do your homework, you can find the subtle differences between manufacturers. As I said, it took me about 30 years to comprehend those subtle differences.... Maybe I'm just slow or maybe those differences are so subtle that the novice simply "won't ever get it"....

To me, it's not worth the effort to try to educate someone about the "what's the difference between Keystone, Forest River, Grand Design and Winnebago" when the conversation "ALWAYS" winds up in the weeds with an argument about "well, they should....."... Trust me when I say, "THEY" (the manufacturers) are dug in, ain't gonna change in the near future and nothing we "wring our hands and wish for" is going to make any difference in their bottom line.....

So, it boils down to a simple choice: Buy an RV you like or save your money for some other venture and the guy standing behind you will buy the one you turned down. There's no "loss" to Keystone, FR or GD by your walking away....

Cold hearted Keystone??? Not really, they don't need you to buy anything, someone else will buy their "junk" or their "good model" (depending on how you feel about it) as fast as they can push them out the door.....
__________________
John



2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
JRTJH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2019, 10:25 AM   #50
danf
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: burlington
Posts: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post


...

So, it boils down to a simple choice: Buy an RV you like or save your money for some other venture and the guy standing behind you will buy the one you turned down. There's no "loss" to Keystone, FR or GD by your walking away....

Cold hearted Keystone??? Not really, they don't need you to buy anything, someone else will buy their "junk" or their "good model" (depending on how you feel about it) as fast as they can push them out the door.....

In other words, "there is a sucker born every minute". This is absolutely the scenario.
danf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2019, 10:40 AM   #51
danf
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: burlington
Posts: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge2 View Post
Being new to the RV world, I'm wondering if this or should I say these, issues are across the board throughout the RV industry...
Are there really companies that are better than others? I think this issue with your rotting floors is beyond my comprehension on a vehicle so new...
In fact, a vehicle less 5 years old having any issues like this to me is really bazaar... Am I just too new and naive? Have been in the Automotive world a long time, I've seen a lot of engineering issues, build issues and just plain sloppy work but normally nothing that destroyed the vehicle to the point of falling thru the floor in under two years... or Rotting out in a year or leaking so badly (other than the T-top debacle in the 70's and 80's) that would render the vehicle in need of a nearly frame off repair...
Again, I simply have not had enough experience in this realm to have seen the Good Bad and Ugly side of travel trailers..
Generally speaking can someone educate me on how widespread this is in the industry and how the manufacturers are getting away with it...?
Thanks
Sarge

You have to add to that too that campers don't get used like automobiles in terms of mileage. We used ours less than 10 times.



These same issues could happen across different manufacturers. I can't speak to those units. However for Bullets, Keystone didn't seal the screws that screw on the apron. My dealer is currently dealing with floor rot issues on another Bullet the same year as mine and mentioned they have dealt with 4 or 5 in the past. According to them, some Bullets are showing rot even before the warranty has expired. IMO, the floors on Bullets are rotten right on the lot and it's just luck whether the problem presents itself before or after the warranty expires.
danf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2019, 11:14 AM   #52
danf
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: burlington
Posts: 42
Evidently I'm banned from the Keystone face book page. They deleted my posts too. I've been watching their facebook page for a while and it looks like they delete most of the negative comments that come from customers. What a company.



As for my trailer, I'm looking to get it back from the dealer. I was told to try my insurance company. Not sure what will happen. If insurance does nothing, then I will have to figure out if fixing it is worth it or even possible, whether I should just try to sell it since nothing else is wrong with it, or just set it on fire.
danf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2019, 11:30 AM   #53
travelin texans
Senior Member
 
travelin texans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Picacho Peak Rv Resort
Posts: 2,642
Quote:
Originally Posted by danf View Post
Evidently I'm banned from the Keystone face book page. They deleted my posts too. I've been watching their facebook page for a while and it looks like they delete most of the negative comments that come from customers. What a company.



As for my trailer, I'm looking to get it back from the dealer. I was told to try my insurance company. Not sure what will happen. If insurance does nothing, then I will have to figure out if fixing it is worth it or even possible, whether I should just try to sell it since nothing else is wrong with it, or just set it on fire.
I'm sure the FB page is just like this, or any other, forum, if you were banned it was the moderators as just like this forum Keystone DOES NOT have anyone reading, moderating or any input whatsoever, read the disclaimer at the bottom of the page.
__________________
Danny & Linda
Former '13 Redwood FB owner
Currently rvless!
travelin texans is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2019, 11:50 AM   #54
skids
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Florissant
Posts: 82
I assume that the moderators are identified here as “site team.”
__________________
Skids
2019 Bullet 248RKS
skids is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2019, 12:01 PM   #55
skids
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Florissant
Posts: 82
Danf, I was hoping that you would be giving us step-by-steps for repair if you were to pursue the daunting project. I bought the Bullet RKS and have done nothing with it except haul it home. I will be doing some things like lining the fenders in hopes that it prevents rotting floor. This possibility just make me sick! I personally don’t buy into the idea that the consumers caused this p*ss-poor design. Customers are uninformed. I also didn’t know that I couldn’t walk on the roof to do inspections and maintenance. That is something that I took for granted because my previous Jayco allowed it.
__________________
Skids
2019 Bullet 248RKS
skids is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2019, 12:27 PM   #56
danf
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: burlington
Posts: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by skids View Post
Danf, I was hoping that you would be giving us step-by-steps for repair if you were to pursue the daunting project. I bought the Bullet RKS and have done nothing with it except haul it home. I will be doing some things like lining the fenders in hopes that it prevents rotting floor. This possibility just make me sick! I personally don’t buy into the idea that the consumers caused this p*ss-poor design. Customers are uninformed. I also didn’t know that I couldn’t walk on the roof to do inspections and maintenance. That is something that I took for granted because my previous Jayco allowed it.

I will take photos, etc if I do go the repair route. Unfortunately we're full blown winter now so it's looking like spring before I could do anything. The dealer had the unit for so long, I missed my opportunity to fix it. It's a daunting project.



You absolutely want to line the fenders. I put down planks when I was up on the roof. If you unscrew the 4 screws that screw on the roof vent, you will be able to see just exactly what the roof is all about.



Keystone didn't put caulking on the screws that screw on the apron. If I were you I would pull every one of them and put some caulking in the screw hole and screw them back in. Then apply caulking over the screw head. Do the same on the door threshold screws. Rust on any of those screws is a sign of water in the floor.
danf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2019, 01:42 PM   #57
ctbruce
Site Team
 
ctbruce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 3,568
Quote:
Originally Posted by skids View Post
I assume that the moderators are identified here as “site team.”
Yes, site team = moderators. There are 6 of us.
__________________

Chip Bruce, RPh
Kansas City, MO
2016 Impact 312
2017 Silverado 3500HD SRW
ctbruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2019, 02:14 PM   #58
skids
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Florissant
Posts: 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctbruce View Post
Yes, site team = moderators. There are 6 of us.
It’s a thankless job and someone has to do it. I have seen forums get out of control where many members just threw up their hands and moved on, never to post again.
__________________

__________________
Skids
2019 Bullet 248RKS
skids is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
bullet, floor

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates in any way. Keystone RV® is a registered trademark of the Keystone RV Company.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
×