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04-17-2019, 06:27 PM
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#21
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Fruitland
Posts: 3,357
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I am thankful that many have asked and learned when their TV is too small and came back on here too say how much better the right TV made to their towing experience.
__________________
2013 24RKSWE (27ft TT) Cougar 1/2 ton series SOLD 10-2021
2013 Ford F350 4x4 CC 6.7 engine, 8 ft bed, 3.55 rear end, lariat package
Retired from Oregon State Police in 2011 than worked another 9.5 years as a small town traffic cop:
As of 05-2020, I am all done with 39 years total police work. No more uniforms for me.
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04-17-2019, 07:14 PM
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#22
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 1,659
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken / Claudia
I am thankful that many have asked and learned when their TV is too small and came back on here too say how much better the right TV made to their towing experience.
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More often than not, that's usually the case. I'm one of them. Conversely, the arrogance/ denial is the dark side of the equation that alarms those well-versed in the RV community.
__________________
2017 Keystone Bullet 308BHS in Saddle.
2017 RAM 2500 Laramie Mega Cab 4x4 Hemi 6.4L
2008 GMC Yukon XL Denali (SOLD)
Hensley SwiftArrow Control Hitch with 1000 lb Spring Bars
Me, DW, (3) little DS's, and 1 rambunctious Boston Terrier
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04-17-2019, 07:47 PM
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#23
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Picacho, Az
Posts: 6,809
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pull Toy
"It'll tow anything!
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It may be able to tow anything, but man that's one UGLY truck!!!
__________________
Full-timed 10+ years
Sold '13 Redwood FB
Traded '13 GMC Denali DRW D/A
Replacement undetermined
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04-18-2019, 04:15 AM
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#24
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhagfo
In a 4th gen you can get 3.73 or 4.10 with a 68RFE, but DRW only.
2019 3.73 is standard with 68RFE 4.10 is optional for SRW with 68RFE.
ON EDIT: The 5gen 2500's have 3.73's standard with CTD, and can be had with 4.10. It also has a MAX towing rating 19,780#
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Well as bad as the Max towing at for a 2019 Ram Tradesman of 19,780#, they also post a Max payload of 4,050#. No mention of the fact those numbers are mutually exclusive! It also means that the Tradesman with that rating only weighed 5,850# when it left the factory floor!
__________________
Russ & Paula and Belle the Beagle.
2016 Ram Laramie 3500 DRW 14,000# GVWR (New TV)
2005 Copper Canyon 293 FWSLS 32’ GVWR 12,360
Visit and enjoy Oregon State Parks
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04-18-2019, 11:52 AM
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#25
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: South US
Posts: 712
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I just left a camp ground this morning. The space next to me had a 40 ft. TH,golf cart, DW,kids,dog and ect... The TV was I thought a SRW 3500 with a hopped up motor and exhaust that was evident when he drove out of his campsite.
Dad came out while I was flushing my black tanks. I asked if his truck was a 3500 (there were no markings on the truck except one "Cummins Turbo Diesel") badge on each side, nope a 2500. He talked about the tuning he was running and said he tows at between 77-79 MPH. He said he has looked at a few duallys but was happy with his TV.
What do you do? It's in the same category as giving advice to somebody about their marriage or raising their kids. One of those situations you just walk away from and go home and post about it here. I guess I left my "weight police " badge at home. Looking back, I guess a visit to the yellow sticker was in order.
RMc
__________________
2018 Ram 3500 SRW Aisin Trans. HO CTD
Air Lift Bags -Curt 16K Slider Hitch
2017 Laredo 350 FB
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04-18-2019, 12:34 PM
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#26
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Site Team
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: W. Texas
Posts: 17,601
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laredo Tugger
I just left a camp ground this morning. The space next to me had a 40 ft. TH,golf cart, DW,kids,dog and ect... The TV was I thought a SRW 3500 with a hopped up motor and exhaust that was evident when he drove out of his campsite.
Dad came out while I was flushing my black tanks. I asked if his truck was a 3500 (there were no markings on the truck except one "Cummins Turbo Diesel") badge on each side, nope a 2500. He talked about the tuning he was running and said he tows at between 77-79 MPH. He said he has looked at a few duallys but was happy with his TV.
What do you do? It's in the same category as giving advice to somebody about their marriage or raising their kids. One of those situations you just walk away from and go home and post about it here. I guess I left my "weight police " badge at home. Looking back, I guess a visit to the yellow sticker was in order.
RMc
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Sometimes there's not much you can do. The tone of the conversation while talking about the truck can give you a little bit of an idea what topics to bring up. I've found that generally those that have spent a lot of money "hopping" a truck up (read; noisier, louder, whish and whine) think they have "the beast" and aren't going to be too open to anything perceived as criticism. About the only thing I could have thought of is to ask if it was rated to carry that big of a trailer with a surprised look - and if possible, brought the sticker into the conversation. On the other hand, the conversation very possibly would have ended when the truck was questioned. Kind of a "slippery slope". In that case, observe, shake your head, go home and post about it here while hoping you don't run across him while he's towing at 77-79mph......
__________________
Danny and Susan, wife of 56 years
2019 Ram 3500 Laramie CC SWB SB 6.4 4x4 4.10
2020 Montana High Country 331RL
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04-18-2019, 12:36 PM
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#27
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 1,659
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laredo Tugger
I just left a camp ground this morning. The space next to me had a 40 ft. TH,golf cart, DW,kids,dog and ect... The TV was I thought a SRW 3500 with a hopped up motor and exhaust that was evident when he drove out of his campsite.
Dad came out while I was flushing my black tanks. I asked if his truck was a 3500 (there were no markings on the truck except one "Cummins Turbo Diesel") badge on each side, nope a 2500. He talked about the tuning he was running and said he tows at between 77-79 MPH. He said he has looked at a few duallys but was happy with his TV.
What do you do? It's in the same category as giving advice to somebody about their marriage or raising their kids. One of those situations you just walk away from and go home and post about it here. I guess I left my "weight police " badge at home. Looking back, I guess a visit to the yellow sticker was in order.
RMc
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Debadged, deleted and tuned with owner's satisfaction. Do you think a little yellow and white sticker would convince him otherwise?
__________________
2017 Keystone Bullet 308BHS in Saddle.
2017 RAM 2500 Laramie Mega Cab 4x4 Hemi 6.4L
2008 GMC Yukon XL Denali (SOLD)
Hensley SwiftArrow Control Hitch with 1000 lb Spring Bars
Me, DW, (3) little DS's, and 1 rambunctious Boston Terrier
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04-18-2019, 03:29 PM
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#28
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: South US
Posts: 712
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That's a good point busterbrown.
RMc
__________________
2018 Ram 3500 SRW Aisin Trans. HO CTD
Air Lift Bags -Curt 16K Slider Hitch
2017 Laredo 350 FB
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04-18-2019, 03:33 PM
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#29
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laredo Tugger
I just left a camp ground this morning. The space next to me had a 40 ft. TH,golf cart, DW,kids,dog and ect... The TV was I thought a SRW 3500 with a hopped up motor and exhaust that was evident when he drove out of his campsite.
Dad came out while I was flushing my black tanks. I asked if his truck was a 3500 (there were no markings on the truck except one "Cummins Turbo Diesel") badge on each side, nope a 2500. He talked about the tuning he was running and said he tows at between 77-79 MPH. He said he has looked at a few duallys but was happy with his TV.
What do you do? It's in the same category as giving advice to somebody about their marriage or raising their kids. One of those situations you just walk away from and go home and post about it here. I guess I left my "weight police " badge at home. Looking back, I guess a visit to the yellow sticker was in order.
RMc
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I work with two guys that both have essentially the same set up that is mentioned above. I have had friendly talks with them several times and they know they are overloaded. They just don’t care. I don’t understand that mentality.
__________________
Mike
2017 F250 6.7 Powerstroke FX4 crew cab
2016 Hideout 24BHSWE (27 foot TT)
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04-18-2019, 05:33 PM
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#30
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 121
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Seems people will pull quite a variety of hairbrained excuses out of their hat (or other dark space) to justify poor choices.
The dealers only exacerbate the problem.
__________________
crk112
“The Truck” 2013 Ford F-150 SuperCrew XLT 5.0L 4WD 157WB
“The Cabin” 2017 Hideout 242LHS - SOLD!
"The Cabin v2" 2016 Jayco Greyhawk 31DS
Fastway e2 round bar WDH
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04-18-2019, 06:16 PM
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#31
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: NorCal
Posts: 386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken / Claudia
I am thankful that many have asked and learned when their TV is too small and came back on here too say how much better the right TV made to their towing experience.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by busterbrown
More often than not, that's usually the case. I'm one of them. Conversely, the arrogance/ denial is the dark side of the equation that alarms those well-versed in the RV community.
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<raises hand> Same here. Very happy with my Ram 3500 DRW TV. And even though we no longer have the 5r (sold to a survivor of the Camp Fire), we'll be ahead of the game when its time for a new 5r. Although we do have a large lounge pull car hauler trailer for a couple of our toys, and it pulls it like it snot there.
__________________
2019 Ram 3500 CTD, CC, Limited, DRW, 4x4, Aisin/4.10's
2017 Ram 3500 CTD CC DRW 4x4, 6.7/auto (Sold)
2016 Cougar 333MKS (sold to Camp Fire survivor)
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04-18-2019, 09:49 PM
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#32
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,138
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I’m am one that was genuinely shocked that the “tow guide” from Ford wasn’t correct. I hadn’t seen or even heard if the payload sticker. Diesels tow anything I thought.
Well fast forward a year and I have learned a lot being here, and I’m grateful. It’s not an easy pill to swallow. I’m still in the over weight crowd, but I don’t promote or condone. As soon as financially possible I’ll grab an F450. Probably order one this fall. Until then I’ll keep my head down and cruise around to my camping spots.
Most here have been great at helping, but attitude is everything. It’s all in the approach. If you are wrong, you’re wrong. Just own it and fix it when you can.
__________________
2017 Alpine 3661FL: For Sale
2021 Vilano
2020 F350 Crew DRW 6.7, 4x4, 10 sod auto, 4:10 gears
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04-19-2019, 06:11 AM
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#33
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Dandridge TN
Posts: 260
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I admit to being ignorant as a newbie too. How and why would you understand the numbers if you have never had to deal with them before? Call me a slow learner but it has taken me years to really understand the 'numbers'. I have also been helpful to friends and neighbors when they have decided to jump into the RV world with much thanks from them avoiding a mistake.
The purchase of an RV is an emotional thing. The bells and whistles and bling of the new trailer is overpowering. The secondary thought of "can I pull this" really isn't a factor until its too late for most new buyers.
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04-19-2019, 06:23 AM
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#34
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: "Murvil, TN
Posts: 2,198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ken56
I admit to being ignorant as a newbie too. How and why would you understand the numbers if you have never had to deal with them before? Call me a slow learner but it has taken me years to really understand the 'numbers'. I have also been helpful to friends and neighbors when they have decided to jump into the RV world with much thanks from them avoiding a mistake.
The purchase of an RV is an emotional thing. The bells and whistles and bling of the new trailer is overpowering. The secondary thought of "can I pull this" really isn't a factor until its too late for most new buyers.
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Man of man......ain't that ^^^^ the truth!
__________________
2016 F350 King Ranch Crew Cab Dually Diesel 4x4
2018 Grand Design Momentum 394M
2023 Suzuki GSX-S1000GT+
Excessive payload capacity is a wonderful thing
"If it ain't Fast....It ain't Fun"
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04-19-2019, 07:27 AM
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#35
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Milwaukie, OR
Posts: 1,389
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I'm not challenging the wisdom here...I'm genuinely curious.
2 questions
1.
In most manufacturing where tolerance ratings equate to safety ratings, don't most manufacturers (of any widgit) understate their ratings significantly for liability's sake? If something has a real tolerance to handle 10k Lbs the manufacturer might post a rating of 3-5k lbs to make sure that users stay well within the widgits capabilities, no one gets hurt, and no one gets sued.
My Andersen Hitch, for instance, has a rating of 20K lbs. But in crush tests it won't fail until over 50k lbs.
Are truck manufacturers understating the real capabilities of the trucks or are their tolerances much tighter to reality? I understand that the manufacturers liability is limited to the stated ratings but...
2.
What part does experience and/or skill play? You can match up an trailer with a TV all within the proper published weight ratings, put them in the hands of a rookie, and have them wrecked pretty quickly. He turns too tightly, doesn't know how to properly set the trailer brake, doesn't understand safe driving distances or turning speeds, etc.
You can also tow a trailer with an underrated TV with an experienced, skilled driver and never have an incident. Primarily because the experienced driver knows the feel of the length of the combo and the feel of the weight and the feel of his stopping capacity, etc., and easily compensates as he would in any driving conditions.
I'm not suggesting that someone with skill could/should tow a 15k lbs trailer with a VW but if a trailer is marginally over a TV's ratings, and still within the TV real tolerances, how big is the risk and is the driver the variable?
I've wondered this for years. What's the collective wisdom?
__________________
Jeff & Sandi (and Teddy - 7lb Schnorkie)
2018 Montana High Country 305RL
2015 RAM 3500 Crew Cab 4x4 DRW
Demco Recon Hitch on RAM Puck Ball
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04-19-2019, 07:49 AM
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#36
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Gone Traveling
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Saint Joseph, MI
Posts: 149
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My guess is safety margins are a result of postulated events that account for the factors you mention.
Ratings certainly account for other than normal operating conditions.
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04-19-2019, 10:27 AM
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#37
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 1,659
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsb5717
I'm not challenging the wisdom here...I'm genuinely curious.
2 questions
1.
In most manufacturing where tolerance ratings equate to safety ratings, don't most manufacturers (of any widgit) understate their ratings significantly for liability's sake? If something has a real tolerance to handle 10k Lbs the manufacturer might post a rating of 3-5k lbs to make sure that users stay well within the widgits capabilities, no one gets hurt, and no one gets sued.
My Andersen Hitch, for instance, has a rating of 20K lbs. But in crush tests it won't fail until over 50k lbs.
Are truck manufacturers understating the real capabilities of the trucks or are their tolerances much tighter to reality? I understand that the manufacturers liability is limited to the stated ratings but...
2.
What part does experience and/or skill play? You can match up an trailer with a TV all within the proper published weight ratings, put them in the hands of a rookie, and have them wrecked pretty quickly. He turns too tightly, doesn't know how to properly set the trailer brake, doesn't understand safe driving distances or turning speeds, etc.
You can also tow a trailer with an underrated TV with an experienced, skilled driver and never have an incident. Primarily because the experienced driver knows the feel of the length of the combo and the feel of the weight and the feel of his stopping capacity, etc., and easily compensates as he would in any driving conditions.
I'm not suggesting that someone with skill could/should tow a 15k lbs trailer with a VW but if a trailer is marginally over a TV's ratings, and still within the TV real tolerances, how big is the risk and is the driver the variable?
I've wondered this for years. What's the collective wisdom?
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It's not based exclusively on failure rates of individual components in the truck. A 6500 lb GAWR axle may not fatigue enough until it reaches triple its derated specs. But how does the truck pull, carry, and handle the load as an assembled vehicle? What happens in undesirable and unforeseen driving circumstances when that same vehicle is faced with the burden of control, without reliance on driver skillset? Will the truck be able to avoid the obstacle, harness the sway, or adequately provide braking power to load if the trailer brakes should fail? At this point, I would hope that the TV in question has more than adequate reserves in all it's published specs, and not hopeful that an engineering team "may have" or "may not have" derated or underrated those critical components.
Also, this biggest problem to a failure, crash, or injury when towing beyond the capability of any truck is in the aftermath of the investigation. Fingers will be pointed, litigation may happen, and it may cost the negligent driver a lot more than an insurance deductible.
__________________
2017 Keystone Bullet 308BHS in Saddle.
2017 RAM 2500 Laramie Mega Cab 4x4 Hemi 6.4L
2008 GMC Yukon XL Denali (SOLD)
Hensley SwiftArrow Control Hitch with 1000 lb Spring Bars
Me, DW, (3) little DS's, and 1 rambunctious Boston Terrier
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04-19-2019, 12:08 PM
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#38
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Sun City
Posts: 168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notanlines
Chris, about half come on here looking for approval of their less than stellar choices. Pulling 39 foot TT's with F-150's, towing big Montana's with 2500's, we could go on and on. Usually when shown how they have erred in their choices the arrogance starts our usual 4-page weight police/anti-weight police diatribe. (I like that word and don't get to use it often )
I have a close friend towing a very large Montana (2019) with an equally nice 2018 3500 Ram, equipped to the hilt, extra 50 gallon tank, bed cover, more Kentucky go-fasters than a 20 year old kid with a credit card! He won't pull over the CAT scale because he doesn't really know how to do it. Wife won't tow nor will she drive the truck. I haven't said much to him because he knows he's over but just doesn't care. He tows to Florida and then tows back to New Hampshire. Uses it sparingly during the summer so he can't justify the dually.
His weight of course isn't over by a ton, but it is by probably 8-900 pounds. Just one example of one who is aware of the circumstances but chooses to ignore it.
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I take it he'd be within specs if he had gotten a dually right?
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04-19-2019, 02:27 PM
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#39
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Dade City
Posts: 1,039
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The TV Brakes are not designed to stop/control a trailer with defective or inoperative brakes on the trailer. The brakes on the TV are only designed to preform within the required stopping distances at or below the GVW of the TV.
The above statement may not be true for class 8 trucks as the trucking industry does a lot of brake testing.
I have never been able to find any stop time/distance testing for the RV industry.
After reading hundred's of posts on the safety of not exceeding the GVW, there are a lot of comments about better (safer) brakes on larger GVW TV's. My point, don't expect that new 3500DRW TV with a 18K toy hauler to stop on a long 6% grade with failed trailer brakes and no exhaust brake. IMHO the diesel exhaust brake is one of the best features in our TV's, it will save many life's.
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04-19-2019, 03:37 PM
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#40
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Site Team
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: W. Texas
Posts: 17,601
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsb5717
I'm not challenging the wisdom here...I'm genuinely curious.
2 questions
1.
In most manufacturing where tolerance ratings equate to safety ratings, don't most manufacturers (of any widgit) understate their ratings significantly for liability's sake? If something has a real tolerance to handle 10k Lbs the manufacturer might post a rating of 3-5k lbs to make sure that users stay well within the widgits capabilities, no one gets hurt, and no one gets sued.
My Andersen Hitch, for instance, has a rating of 20K lbs. But in crush tests it won't fail until over 50k lbs.
Are truck manufacturers understating the real capabilities of the trucks or are their tolerances much tighter to reality? I understand that the manufacturers liability is limited to the stated ratings but...
2.
What part does experience and/or skill play? You can match up an trailer with a TV all within the proper published weight ratings, put them in the hands of a rookie, and have them wrecked pretty quickly. He turns too tightly, doesn't know how to properly set the trailer brake, doesn't understand safe driving distances or turning speeds, etc.
You can also tow a trailer with an underrated TV with an experienced, skilled driver and never have an incident. Primarily because the experienced driver knows the feel of the length of the combo and the feel of the weight and the feel of his stopping capacity, etc., and easily compensates as he would in any driving conditions.
I'm not suggesting that someone with skill could/should tow a 15k lbs trailer with a VW but if a trailer is marginally over a TV's ratings, and still within the TV real tolerances, how big is the risk and is the driver the variable?
I've wondered this for years. What's the collective wisdom?
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The "safe" weight is the one published on the vehicle. Underrated? Extra margins built in? Who knows. Moreover, it shouldn't be of concern to anyone except those that want to exceed the established weights for a certain truck/trailer. You will find these statements on the stickered weights; "do not exceed", "must not exceed". Those mean what they say, not "these are guidelines if you want to follow them" or "do not exceed....but, we have a 10k lb. margin built in".
Exceeding the established weights can have many effects. They give you a warranty for 36k miles? 60k? Those are based on you living within the confines of their established criteria. The engineers have established a safe weight limit for various components so they can last x amount of miles. Putting loads on components far above what the specs call for can fatigue that component much sooner and cause failure.
Do I think there is a built in margin....I hope so. Does any manufacturer publish that or even mention it? No. Why? It's there to give you that margin...and them. If they published the very most a vehicle could carry we would still have this conversation and still have those that thought they should exceed it because it's in some folks nature to push the envelope....even though that margin did not exist.
For me, take the numbers. Deal with it and buy the products that fit - a person chooses to get into the RV life; do it right. Hope like heck there is some sort of margin built in in the event you are faced with some emergency maneuver that stresses every piece of equipment you have to the limit....and yes, those things do happen....even to those that think they can't.
__________________
Danny and Susan, wife of 56 years
2019 Ram 3500 Laramie CC SWB SB 6.4 4x4 4.10
2020 Montana High Country 331RL
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