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Old 04-17-2019, 06:27 PM   #21
Ken / Claudia
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I am thankful that many have asked and learned when their TV is too small and came back on here too say how much better the right TV made to their towing experience.
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Old 04-17-2019, 07:14 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Ken / Claudia View Post
I am thankful that many have asked and learned when their TV is too small and came back on here too say how much better the right TV made to their towing experience.
More often than not, that's usually the case. I'm one of them. Conversely, the arrogance/ denial is the dark side of the equation that alarms those well-versed in the RV community.
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Old 04-17-2019, 07:47 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Pull Toy View Post
"It'll tow anything!
It may be able to tow anything, but man that's one UGLY truck!!!
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Old 04-18-2019, 04:15 AM   #24
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In a 4th gen you can get 3.73 or 4.10 with a 68RFE, but DRW only.
2019 3.73 is standard with 68RFE 4.10 is optional for SRW with 68RFE.

ON EDIT: The 5gen 2500's have 3.73's standard with CTD, and can be had with 4.10. It also has a MAX towing rating 19,780#
Well as bad as the Max towing at for a 2019 Ram Tradesman of 19,780#, they also post a Max payload of 4,050#. No mention of the fact those numbers are mutually exclusive! It also means that the Tradesman with that rating only weighed 5,850# when it left the factory floor!
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Old 04-18-2019, 11:52 AM   #25
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I just left a camp ground this morning. The space next to me had a 40 ft. TH,golf cart, DW,kids,dog and ect... The TV was I thought a SRW 3500 with a hopped up motor and exhaust that was evident when he drove out of his campsite.
Dad came out while I was flushing my black tanks. I asked if his truck was a 3500 (there were no markings on the truck except one "Cummins Turbo Diesel") badge on each side, nope a 2500. He talked about the tuning he was running and said he tows at between 77-79 MPH. He said he has looked at a few duallys but was happy with his TV.
What do you do? It's in the same category as giving advice to somebody about their marriage or raising their kids. One of those situations you just walk away from and go home and post about it here. I guess I left my "weight police " badge at home. Looking back, I guess a visit to the yellow sticker was in order.
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Old 04-18-2019, 12:34 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Laredo Tugger View Post
I just left a camp ground this morning. The space next to me had a 40 ft. TH,golf cart, DW,kids,dog and ect... The TV was I thought a SRW 3500 with a hopped up motor and exhaust that was evident when he drove out of his campsite.
Dad came out while I was flushing my black tanks. I asked if his truck was a 3500 (there were no markings on the truck except one "Cummins Turbo Diesel") badge on each side, nope a 2500. He talked about the tuning he was running and said he tows at between 77-79 MPH. He said he has looked at a few duallys but was happy with his TV.
What do you do? It's in the same category as giving advice to somebody about their marriage or raising their kids. One of those situations you just walk away from and go home and post about it here. I guess I left my "weight police " badge at home. Looking back, I guess a visit to the yellow sticker was in order.
RMc

Sometimes there's not much you can do. The tone of the conversation while talking about the truck can give you a little bit of an idea what topics to bring up. I've found that generally those that have spent a lot of money "hopping" a truck up (read; noisier, louder, whish and whine) think they have "the beast" and aren't going to be too open to anything perceived as criticism. About the only thing I could have thought of is to ask if it was rated to carry that big of a trailer with a surprised look - and if possible, brought the sticker into the conversation. On the other hand, the conversation very possibly would have ended when the truck was questioned. Kind of a "slippery slope". In that case, observe, shake your head, go home and post about it here while hoping you don't run across him while he's towing at 77-79mph......
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Old 04-18-2019, 12:36 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Laredo Tugger View Post
I just left a camp ground this morning. The space next to me had a 40 ft. TH,golf cart, DW,kids,dog and ect... The TV was I thought a SRW 3500 with a hopped up motor and exhaust that was evident when he drove out of his campsite.
Dad came out while I was flushing my black tanks. I asked if his truck was a 3500 (there were no markings on the truck except one "Cummins Turbo Diesel") badge on each side, nope a 2500. He talked about the tuning he was running and said he tows at between 77-79 MPH. He said he has looked at a few duallys but was happy with his TV.
What do you do? It's in the same category as giving advice to somebody about their marriage or raising their kids. One of those situations you just walk away from and go home and post about it here. I guess I left my "weight police " badge at home. Looking back, I guess a visit to the yellow sticker was in order.
RMc
Debadged, deleted and tuned with owner's satisfaction. Do you think a little yellow and white sticker would convince him otherwise?
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Old 04-18-2019, 03:29 PM   #28
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That's a good point busterbrown.
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Old 04-18-2019, 03:33 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Laredo Tugger View Post
I just left a camp ground this morning. The space next to me had a 40 ft. TH,golf cart, DW,kids,dog and ect... The TV was I thought a SRW 3500 with a hopped up motor and exhaust that was evident when he drove out of his campsite.
Dad came out while I was flushing my black tanks. I asked if his truck was a 3500 (there were no markings on the truck except one "Cummins Turbo Diesel") badge on each side, nope a 2500. He talked about the tuning he was running and said he tows at between 77-79 MPH. He said he has looked at a few duallys but was happy with his TV.
What do you do? It's in the same category as giving advice to somebody about their marriage or raising their kids. One of those situations you just walk away from and go home and post about it here. I guess I left my "weight police " badge at home. Looking back, I guess a visit to the yellow sticker was in order.
RMc

I work with two guys that both have essentially the same set up that is mentioned above. I have had friendly talks with them several times and they know they are overloaded. They just don’t care. I don’t understand that mentality.
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Old 04-18-2019, 05:33 PM   #30
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Seems people will pull quite a variety of hairbrained excuses out of their hat (or other dark space) to justify poor choices.

The dealers only exacerbate the problem.
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Old 04-18-2019, 06:16 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Ken / Claudia View Post
I am thankful that many have asked and learned when their TV is too small and came back on here too say how much better the right TV made to their towing experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by busterbrown View Post
More often than not, that's usually the case. I'm one of them. Conversely, the arrogance/ denial is the dark side of the equation that alarms those well-versed in the RV community.
<raises hand> Same here. Very happy with my Ram 3500 DRW TV. And even though we no longer have the 5r (sold to a survivor of the Camp Fire), we'll be ahead of the game when its time for a new 5r. Although we do have a large lounge pull car hauler trailer for a couple of our toys, and it pulls it like it snot there.
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Old 04-18-2019, 09:49 PM   #32
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I’m am one that was genuinely shocked that the “tow guide” from Ford wasn’t correct. I hadn’t seen or even heard if the payload sticker. Diesels tow anything I thought.

Well fast forward a year and I have learned a lot being here, and I’m grateful. It’s not an easy pill to swallow. I’m still in the over weight crowd, but I don’t promote or condone. As soon as financially possible I’ll grab an F450. Probably order one this fall. Until then I’ll keep my head down and cruise around to my camping spots.

Most here have been great at helping, but attitude is everything. It’s all in the approach. If you are wrong, you’re wrong. Just own it and fix it when you can.
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Old 04-19-2019, 06:11 AM   #33
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I admit to being ignorant as a newbie too. How and why would you understand the numbers if you have never had to deal with them before? Call me a slow learner but it has taken me years to really understand the 'numbers'. I have also been helpful to friends and neighbors when they have decided to jump into the RV world with much thanks from them avoiding a mistake.


The purchase of an RV is an emotional thing. The bells and whistles and bling of the new trailer is overpowering. The secondary thought of "can I pull this" really isn't a factor until its too late for most new buyers.
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Old 04-19-2019, 06:23 AM   #34
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I admit to being ignorant as a newbie too. How and why would you understand the numbers if you have never had to deal with them before? Call me a slow learner but it has taken me years to really understand the 'numbers'. I have also been helpful to friends and neighbors when they have decided to jump into the RV world with much thanks from them avoiding a mistake.


The purchase of an RV is an emotional thing. The bells and whistles and bling of the new trailer is overpowering. The secondary thought of "can I pull this" really isn't a factor until its too late for most new buyers.
Man of man......ain't that ^^^^ the truth!
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Old 04-19-2019, 07:27 AM   #35
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I'm not challenging the wisdom here...I'm genuinely curious.

2 questions

1.
In most manufacturing where tolerance ratings equate to safety ratings, don't most manufacturers (of any widgit) understate their ratings significantly for liability's sake? If something has a real tolerance to handle 10k Lbs the manufacturer might post a rating of 3-5k lbs to make sure that users stay well within the widgits capabilities, no one gets hurt, and no one gets sued.

My Andersen Hitch, for instance, has a rating of 20K lbs. But in crush tests it won't fail until over 50k lbs.

Are truck manufacturers understating the real capabilities of the trucks or are their tolerances much tighter to reality? I understand that the manufacturers liability is limited to the stated ratings but...

2.
What part does experience and/or skill play? You can match up an trailer with a TV all within the proper published weight ratings, put them in the hands of a rookie, and have them wrecked pretty quickly. He turns too tightly, doesn't know how to properly set the trailer brake, doesn't understand safe driving distances or turning speeds, etc.

You can also tow a trailer with an underrated TV with an experienced, skilled driver and never have an incident. Primarily because the experienced driver knows the feel of the length of the combo and the feel of the weight and the feel of his stopping capacity, etc., and easily compensates as he would in any driving conditions.

I'm not suggesting that someone with skill could/should tow a 15k lbs trailer with a VW but if a trailer is marginally over a TV's ratings, and still within the TV real tolerances, how big is the risk and is the driver the variable?

I've wondered this for years. What's the collective wisdom?
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Old 04-19-2019, 07:49 AM   #36
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My guess is safety margins are a result of postulated events that account for the factors you mention.

Ratings certainly account for other than normal operating conditions.
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Old 04-19-2019, 10:27 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by jsb5717 View Post
I'm not challenging the wisdom here...I'm genuinely curious.

2 questions

1.
In most manufacturing where tolerance ratings equate to safety ratings, don't most manufacturers (of any widgit) understate their ratings significantly for liability's sake? If something has a real tolerance to handle 10k Lbs the manufacturer might post a rating of 3-5k lbs to make sure that users stay well within the widgits capabilities, no one gets hurt, and no one gets sued.

My Andersen Hitch, for instance, has a rating of 20K lbs. But in crush tests it won't fail until over 50k lbs.

Are truck manufacturers understating the real capabilities of the trucks or are their tolerances much tighter to reality? I understand that the manufacturers liability is limited to the stated ratings but...

2.
What part does experience and/or skill play? You can match up an trailer with a TV all within the proper published weight ratings, put them in the hands of a rookie, and have them wrecked pretty quickly. He turns too tightly, doesn't know how to properly set the trailer brake, doesn't understand safe driving distances or turning speeds, etc.

You can also tow a trailer with an underrated TV with an experienced, skilled driver and never have an incident. Primarily because the experienced driver knows the feel of the length of the combo and the feel of the weight and the feel of his stopping capacity, etc., and easily compensates as he would in any driving conditions.

I'm not suggesting that someone with skill could/should tow a 15k lbs trailer with a VW but if a trailer is marginally over a TV's ratings, and still within the TV real tolerances, how big is the risk and is the driver the variable?

I've wondered this for years. What's the collective wisdom?
It's not based exclusively on failure rates of individual components in the truck. A 6500 lb GAWR axle may not fatigue enough until it reaches triple its derated specs. But how does the truck pull, carry, and handle the load as an assembled vehicle? What happens in undesirable and unforeseen driving circumstances when that same vehicle is faced with the burden of control, without reliance on driver skillset? Will the truck be able to avoid the obstacle, harness the sway, or adequately provide braking power to load if the trailer brakes should fail? At this point, I would hope that the TV in question has more than adequate reserves in all it's published specs, and not hopeful that an engineering team "may have" or "may not have" derated or underrated those critical components.

Also, this biggest problem to a failure, crash, or injury when towing beyond the capability of any truck is in the aftermath of the investigation. Fingers will be pointed, litigation may happen, and it may cost the negligent driver a lot more than an insurance deductible.
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Old 04-19-2019, 12:08 PM   #38
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Chris, about half come on here looking for approval of their less than stellar choices. Pulling 39 foot TT's with F-150's, towing big Montana's with 2500's, we could go on and on. Usually when shown how they have erred in their choices the arrogance starts our usual 4-page weight police/anti-weight police diatribe. (I like that word and don't get to use it often )
I have a close friend towing a very large Montana (2019) with an equally nice 2018 3500 Ram, equipped to the hilt, extra 50 gallon tank, bed cover, more Kentucky go-fasters than a 20 year old kid with a credit card! He won't pull over the CAT scale because he doesn't really know how to do it. Wife won't tow nor will she drive the truck. I haven't said much to him because he knows he's over but just doesn't care. He tows to Florida and then tows back to New Hampshire. Uses it sparingly during the summer so he can't justify the dually.
His weight of course isn't over by a ton, but it is by probably 8-900 pounds. Just one example of one who is aware of the circumstances but chooses to ignore it.
I take it he'd be within specs if he had gotten a dually right?
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Old 04-19-2019, 02:27 PM   #39
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The TV Brakes are not designed to stop/control a trailer with defective or inoperative brakes on the trailer. The brakes on the TV are only designed to preform within the required stopping distances at or below the GVW of the TV.

The above statement may not be true for class 8 trucks as the trucking industry does a lot of brake testing.

I have never been able to find any stop time/distance testing for the RV industry.

After reading hundred's of posts on the safety of not exceeding the GVW, there are a lot of comments about better (safer) brakes on larger GVW TV's. My point, don't expect that new 3500DRW TV with a 18K toy hauler to stop on a long 6% grade with failed trailer brakes and no exhaust brake. IMHO the diesel exhaust brake is one of the best features in our TV's, it will save many life's.
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Old 04-19-2019, 03:37 PM   #40
sourdough
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsb5717 View Post
I'm not challenging the wisdom here...I'm genuinely curious.

2 questions

1.
In most manufacturing where tolerance ratings equate to safety ratings, don't most manufacturers (of any widgit) understate their ratings significantly for liability's sake? If something has a real tolerance to handle 10k Lbs the manufacturer might post a rating of 3-5k lbs to make sure that users stay well within the widgits capabilities, no one gets hurt, and no one gets sued.

My Andersen Hitch, for instance, has a rating of 20K lbs. But in crush tests it won't fail until over 50k lbs.

Are truck manufacturers understating the real capabilities of the trucks or are their tolerances much tighter to reality? I understand that the manufacturers liability is limited to the stated ratings but...

2.
What part does experience and/or skill play? You can match up an trailer with a TV all within the proper published weight ratings, put them in the hands of a rookie, and have them wrecked pretty quickly. He turns too tightly, doesn't know how to properly set the trailer brake, doesn't understand safe driving distances or turning speeds, etc.

You can also tow a trailer with an underrated TV with an experienced, skilled driver and never have an incident. Primarily because the experienced driver knows the feel of the length of the combo and the feel of the weight and the feel of his stopping capacity, etc., and easily compensates as he would in any driving conditions.

I'm not suggesting that someone with skill could/should tow a 15k lbs trailer with a VW but if a trailer is marginally over a TV's ratings, and still within the TV real tolerances, how big is the risk and is the driver the variable?

I've wondered this for years. What's the collective wisdom?
The "safe" weight is the one published on the vehicle. Underrated? Extra margins built in? Who knows. Moreover, it shouldn't be of concern to anyone except those that want to exceed the established weights for a certain truck/trailer. You will find these statements on the stickered weights; "do not exceed", "must not exceed". Those mean what they say, not "these are guidelines if you want to follow them" or "do not exceed....but, we have a 10k lb. margin built in".

Exceeding the established weights can have many effects. They give you a warranty for 36k miles? 60k? Those are based on you living within the confines of their established criteria. The engineers have established a safe weight limit for various components so they can last x amount of miles. Putting loads on components far above what the specs call for can fatigue that component much sooner and cause failure.

Do I think there is a built in margin....I hope so. Does any manufacturer publish that or even mention it? No. Why? It's there to give you that margin...and them. If they published the very most a vehicle could carry we would still have this conversation and still have those that thought they should exceed it because it's in some folks nature to push the envelope....even though that margin did not exist.

For me, take the numbers. Deal with it and buy the products that fit - a person chooses to get into the RV life; do it right. Hope like heck there is some sort of margin built in in the event you are faced with some emergency maneuver that stresses every piece of equipment you have to the limit....and yes, those things do happen....even to those that think they can't.
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