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Old 03-11-2019, 11:25 AM   #1
aumegrad
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Passport 2670BH - F150 Max Tow Compatability

Hi, I am new to this forum and the TT world all together. We are currently looking to get our first TT and my family and I (wife and 3 kids) look forward to this new adventure in our lives. I have been researching TV, TT, and their combination for several months and am beginning to experience paralysis by analysis and was hoping for some input from the wise. I apologize in advance for this seemingly over-asked question, but I want to ensure I am making a safe decision. And while I realize the safest bet would be to pull these trailers would be a Kenworth T680, I am trying to balance this with practicality and responsibility. So please bear with me AND pardon me for my ignorance into this world ...

I recently upgraded from a passcar to an F-150 (2017 SCREW, 5.5' bed, 145” WB, w MAX Tow package), all in an effort to safely transport a TT and family. I wasn't looking for anything large and I drive a bit for work, so wanted something comfortable and this seemed to fit the bill. Unfortunately, I managed to somehow underestimate the payload issue. I have been looking at the Passport 2670BH and Kodiak Ultra-Lite 255BHSL. The lengths are 30.5’ and 28.8’, respectively. I believe I have accurately calculated the applicable loads at the TT's GVWR (@12% GTWR, assuming 20% TW xfer to the TT axles via WDH), though I never intend to get MAX as we plan to travel locally and to full hookup locations. I hopefully have correctly pasted the calculations below. Does this look accurate to you? Additionally, what are your thoughts on these combinations (I look forward to widely varying opinions )? I am more than happy to explain my calculations if needed.

Also, I am curious as to your inputs on listed “Dry Hitch Weights” as they are widely varying for similarly weighted TT’s. At the end of the day, should I not just use ~12% of the GTWR?

Lastly, I have read Retired Copper's informative posts addressing this very combination, though his F-150 had a lower tow capacity and wasn’t sure if his concerns 100% xferred to my situation?

Also, the payload below is from the door sticker (within 10 lbs anyways).

Thanks again for your input … fire away!

TV Calculations.pdf


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Old 03-11-2019, 11:49 AM   #2
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Superficially, the numbers in your table appear all within spec. The only question now is if your weight assumptions match reality.

I'd put in some non-zero figures for your water tanks. You don't want to tow without at least a few inches of water in the fresh tank, so you can use your toilet on the road if you have to, or in case all the campgrounds are booked up wherever you have to stop driving and call it a night. Likewise, assume you may have to leave a campground that didn't offer full hookups or a dump, and might occasionally be carrying some waste water.

On the other hand, unless you have some sort of a solar rig, your battery number looks overly pessimistic.

All in all, you appear right now to be well within capacity, assuming the tow vehicle capacity numbers you used were on the ball.
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Old 03-11-2019, 12:10 PM   #3
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My initial thoughts:

Not sure how old your kids are, but 515 lbs for 3 kids and 2 adults seems low, and that number will only grow as the kids age.

I thought the battery number is actually a little high if you only have 1 battery.

What is the max tongue number from and why is it different in each example?

Using your numbers, it looks like you are already at your maximum payload on the Kodiak and already over on the Passport.
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Old 03-11-2019, 12:40 PM   #4
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Some of your numbers seem unrealistic...

You list 250 pounds for "MISC" in the trailer. Is that camping gear, pots/pans, bedding, dishes, food, clothing, towels, toiletries, tools, jack, spare tire, BBQ grill, camping mat, chairs, blocks/chocks, sporting gear, toys, games, and the host of other things that aren't listed.....

As stated, 515 pounds for 5 people seems extremely low. Kids seldom stop growing or get lighter, so if it's 515 pounds this year, it will be 615 next year, plus the "hissy fit" the oldest will throw if he/she can't bring their favorite cousin or friend along for the weekend.....

It's safest to figure your actual weight for the trailer "at GVW" then add the weight of the hitch, plus any "extra loaded in the truck" along with everything the kids "insist" they bring. Through experience, I found that it's a much more pleasant weekend if they get to choose what gets tossed in the back for the weekend, even if you know they won't use it.....

I think your numbers are too low for reality and much less than you'll actually see on any scale once you have the rig ready to roll for the first trip.....
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Old 03-11-2019, 12:44 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aumegrad View Post
Hi, I am new to this forum and the TT world all together. We are currently looking to get our first TT and my family and I (wife and 3 kids) look forward to this new adventure in our lives. I have been researching TV, TT, and their combination for several months and am beginning to experience paralysis by analysis and was hoping for some input from the wise. I apologize in advance for this seemingly over-asked question, but I want to ensure I am making a safe decision. And while I realize the safest bet would be to pull these trailers would be a Kenworth T680, I am trying to balance this with practicality and responsibility. So please bear with me AND pardon me for my ignorance into this world ...

I recently upgraded from a passcar to an F-150 (2017 SCREW, 5.5' bed, 145” WB, w MAX Tow package), all in an effort to safely transport a TT and family. I wasn't looking for anything large and I drive a bit for work, so wanted something comfortable and this seemed to fit the bill. Unfortunately, I managed to somehow underestimate the payload issue. I have been looking at the Passport 2670BH and Kodiak Ultra-Lite 255BHSL. The lengths are 30.5’ and 28.8’, respectively. I believe I have accurately calculated the applicable loads at the TT's GVWR (@12% GTWR, assuming 20% TW xfer to the TT axles via WDH), though I never intend to get MAX as we plan to travel locally and to full hookup locations. I hopefully have correctly pasted the calculations below. Does this look accurate to you? Additionally, what are your thoughts on these combinations (I look forward to widely varying opinions )? I am more than happy to explain my calculations if needed.

Also, I am curious as to your inputs on listed “Dry Hitch Weights” as they are widely varying for similarly weighted TT’s. At the end of the day, should I not just use ~12% of the GTWR?

Lastly, I have read Retired Copper's informative posts addressing this very combination, though his F-150 had a lower tow capacity and wasn’t sure if his concerns 100% xferred to my situation?

Also, the payload below is from the door sticker (within 10 lbs anyways).

Thanks again for your input … fire away!

Attachment 20679


Something does not seem right with your GVWR for the F-150. I looked up the specs for the 2017 series and I do not see a 7000 lbs GVRW with a payload that low. Could you please give some more details to the engine and axle ratio of the truck? or take a photo of the two stickers on the inside of the driver door and post. That way we can ensure you are calculating with the correct numbers.
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Old 03-11-2019, 01:28 PM   #6
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I agree with the above 2 posts. Listing 250 lbs. for the items is off the mark by about 1k IMO, especially with children. Unless you wear the same set of clothes all the time, clothing for 5 people, including 3 kids might weigh 250lbs.

I have found, and seen, that trying to "guess" how much you will take, or can leave behind, becomes an issue real fast when in reality you REALLY have to leave it behind. Go with the gvw of the trailer and stay within that. Use 12% of that number for potential tongue weight. Take the current weight of the family and add 200 to that (plus another 150 in case they bring friends). In the truck you will carry more than 25lb. misc. My 2 bottle jacks weigh that much or more...plus wood blocks, jacks, torque wrenches/sockets, cordless impact, tool box (about 80lbs) - the list is quite possibly endless. Good number for the bed of the truck would be 300 minimum I would say. What exactly will you be taking for the kids to do with those minimal numbers?

The trailer has a carry capacity of 1656 lbs. I suspect you will be over 1000 easily so go with the gvw of the trailer - cause I'm not talking about water either.

Your issue will be payload as it generally is with a 1/2 ton.

Edit: Whoops, gotta run. Neighbor just dropped off a mess of specs from his fishing trip so gotta go clean them and get 'em in the freezer!!
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Old 03-11-2019, 02:11 PM   #7
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A max tow F150 can have a payload rating up above 3k depending on the package. These are the type of trucks that all this half ton towable stuff comes from. It will have 7 lug nuts on the axles. I haven`t seen one because they are hard to find on a dealers lot like the 6.2 with 430 gears. They are out there but hard to stumble across without ordering. Yes this would handle either camper as the GVW was 8500 lbs. the last time I checked into one.
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Old 03-11-2019, 02:17 PM   #8
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I very much appreciate all of your feedback. I will try to address the questions one at a time:


Water tank: the bathrooms are unusable via transport anyhow due to the door and slide.


Family weights: They are actual numbers. True I could throw some weight to it to compensate for growing kids but then where do I draw the line? When they are adults? Not being facetious here, but I had to start drawing some lines in the sand and assumed simply using actual for the time being was logical, perhaps not. As they grow, and we better understand what we want from a TT, we will be upgrading or simply have them drive separately (long ways down the road). Also, friends will not be allowed 😊, actually no more room for them in my truck.


Battery: I add two battery weights for fun


Tongue Weight: It was calculated as: 12% of GTWR + Hitch Weight. They vary due to different GTWR’s


Payload: My original chart was a bit confusing, my apologies. The “GVWR” under the trailer names should be “GTWR”. It is within its limits. I will correct this.

MISC: It was ultimately a guess with input from several others and I understand that it could be more. But regardless, TW was calculated at GTWR and I have plenty of cushion with my GCW. I appreciate the insight on this, I will add the numbers per sourdough’s input.


GVWR: 2017 F150 Platinum w/ 3.55 rear. I don’t have my actual but have attached a similar door sticker below


While I realize the rubber will meet the road at a scale, I am going through all these motions to get it right the first time. If I scale out and see I am drastically over a parameter, that becomes either an expensive and/or dangerous mistake.


I hope this answers some of the concerns. If you feel I am really off base, please let me know.
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Old 03-11-2019, 03:12 PM   #9
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Here is a pic of my actual ratings. Hopefully you can read it? Regardless, my payload is 1463 and gvwr of 7k. And I suppose I should state that this f150 has the max tow package.
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Old 03-11-2019, 04:28 PM   #10
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Yeah, that Platinum trim is REALLY killing your payload. We have several other members on here with F150s with the max tow package who have payloads north of 2,000 lbs. Bummer! Honestly a lower trim F150 with the tow package would probably work for you, but the tarted up model you have isn't going to cut it, unfortunately.
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Old 03-11-2019, 04:46 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by aumegrad View Post
I very much appreciate all of your feedback. I will try to address the questions one at a time:


"Water tank: the bathrooms are unusable via transport anyhow due to the door and slide." I generally carry 1/3 tank for emergencies but....

"Family weights: They are actual numbers. True I could throw some weight to it to compensate for growing kids but then where do I draw the line? When they are adults? Not being facetious here, but I had to start drawing some lines in the sand and assumed simply using actual for the time being was logical, perhaps not. As they grow, and we better understand what we want from a TT, we will be upgrading or simply have them drive separately (long ways down the road). Also, friends will not be allowed 😊, actually no more room for them in my truck." This is an effort to minimalize the problem of growing kids and the reality that they grow, and gain weight, quickly to simply manage weight projections to fit the "wanted" outcome. You draw the line with reality....and looking to be on the safe side. The "actual" weight you projected today will change tomorrow....and be higher.

Battery: I add two battery weights for fun - You will want 2 batteries so this is an exercise in reality IMO.


Tongue Weight: It was calculated as: 12% of GTWR + Hitch Weight. They vary due to different GTWR’s


Payload: My original chart was a bit confusing, my apologies. The “GVWR” under the trailer names should be “GTWR”. It is within its limits. I will correct this. In the chart I assumed GVWR was the gross weight of the trailer based on dry weight plus carrying capacity which I assume you used.

MISC: It was ultimately a guess with input from several others and I understand that it could be more. But regardless, TW was calculated at GTWR and I have plenty of cushion with my GCW. I appreciate the insight on this, I will add the numbers per sourdough’s input. The "misc" numbers in the chart don't have any resemblance to real life in my experience. I don't know who the "others" were that provided input but I dare say they haven't actually "camped" or "traveled" in an RV with kids. They are far below what you will actually experience unless you are just pulling the trailer around the block with the kids.


GVWR: 2017 F150 Platinum w/ 3.55 rear. I don’t have my actual but have attached a similar door sticker below


While I realize the rubber will meet the road at a scale, I am going through all these motions to get it right the first time. If I scale out and see I am drastically over a parameter, that becomes either an expensive and/or dangerous mistake. Don't "go through these motions" with a preset outcome in your mind because you know what you want despite reality or you WILL either have that "expensive" mistake...or one that your family pays for - all avoidable.


I hope this answers some of the concerns. If you feel I am really off base, please let me know.

With a 14xxlb payload you are going to be limited by what you can tow, and carry, safely. The numbers are there. You use gross vehicle weights, not some number "pulled out of the air" because I'm not going to do this or that simply because you WANT to meet the numbers - using calculations/predictions on what you will carry that will leave you and the family at each other's throats after the first night. Not realistic. With 3 children you MUST err on the side of safety and look at the max you may carry (which you will) instead of trying to cut corners and then find that....oops, shouldn't have ignored all that weight....I wouldn't be wrapped around this tree and the kids are......where? Forget the "gotta buy", "we love it", "it's perfect", "think about what we could do" and let real life soak in.
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Old 03-11-2019, 05:40 PM   #12
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I had 100 lbs more payload with my previous GMC TV and my kids ages then were 1, 3 and 6. First thing we ran out of was payload after the first towing season. Unless you have a very lightly optioned max trailer,/HDPP package, you'll find yourself in my situation sooner than later. I agree with what was said by previous members. A CAT scale will be your best place to find definitive answers. Unfortunately, it could come at the price of a very depreciable trailer.
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Old 03-11-2019, 05:47 PM   #13
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I appreciate the insight sourdough. So, if I currently have a 300# cushion on GVWR and below all other limits, what is the concern? Not intending to being argumentative, but if we are to rely on the numbers, where am I going wrong? Or is there a general consensus that all limits mustn’t exceed a certain % of their respective rating? While I agree that many things will change in the future, I will adjust to compensate. I am not suggesting, nor did I intend to imply, that I am trying to cut corners. I am trying to let the numbers dictate.
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Old 03-11-2019, 06:42 PM   #14
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I appreciate the insight sourdough. So, if I currently have a 300# cushion on GVWR and below all other limits, what is the concern? Not intending to being argumentative, but if we are to rely on the numbers, where am I going wrong? Or is there a general consensus that all limits mustn’t exceed a certain % of their respective rating? While I agree that many things will change in the future, I will adjust to compensate. I am not suggesting, nor did I intend to imply, that I am trying to cut corners. I am trying to let the numbers dictate.
I'm not going to try to re-study the chart so I'm just going from the hip.

You are 300# under gvw of the truck?, using what numbers? Where do you stand on payload - I have no idea what numbers you are coming up with if they use personal assumptions. Off the top of my head just thinking, without trying to interpret the chart; payload - 1450 lbs. (truck). Realistic tongue weight - 840 (7000 x .12), family (5 people - realistically and growing) 700, tools, gear, bikes, toys, hitch, ice chest, other NECESSITIES not listed - minimum 300. Where's that ? 1840? vs 1450?

I guess the thing I and others try to say is that you cannot, and will not, take a trip with 3 children for any length of time with virtually nothing - it just won't happen. The payload on your truck will be exceeded. When you think that the "rule" you will run by is within 300# of your gvw - you are already "too close for comfort" IMO. Use 15% below the gross weights to give you a margin.

IMO forget the chart - it's too convoluted and seems to put a lot of "assumptions" into the calculations. Simple way; trailer gvw, truck payload, gvw, gawr (f/r). Gcvwr is OK but you will exceed one of the others generally before that comes into play. With those numbers, without scale weights, one can at least get some idea of what you have without dealing with some sort of personal intervention in the data - plus those that have experience can shed light on what it is that you will actually end up carrying vs the idea that 25 lbs. will "take care of it".
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Old 03-11-2019, 07:14 PM   #15
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Danny has spelled it out. Realistic tongue weights and realistic payloads are only measurable and conclusive when your trailer is loaded and "ready to go" camping. Dry weights, assumed weights, and "advertised" weights are just non-sense numbers. A family of 5 in a 1400# payload truck hauling a 31 foot travel trailer will be pushing many of the limits that the TV's manufacturer has set. These limits are there for a reason. As the capacities are challenged, so will the driving characteristics, especially in the event of uncontrolled circumstances.

Safety should always be on the top of any RV'er list. When the "numbers" lose (or exceed) a manufacturer's set margins and reserves, safety becomes the first thing that will be challenged. Ask how many of us joined the "been there, done that" club. It seems to be very popular now-a-days.
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Old 03-11-2019, 07:28 PM   #16
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Danny has spelled it out. Realistic tongue weights and realistic payloads are only measurable and conclusive when your trailer is loaded and "ready to go" camping. Dry weights, assumed weights, and "advertised" weights are just non-sense numbers. A family of 5 in a 1400# payload truck hauling a 31 foot travel trailer will be pushing many of the limits that the TV's manufacturer has set. These limits are there for a reason. As the capacities are challenged, so will the driving characteristics, especially in the event of uncontrolled circumstances.

Safety should always be on the top of any RV'er list. When the "numbers" lose (or exceed) a manufacturer's set margins and reserves, safety becomes the first thing that will be challenged. Ask how many of us joined the "been there, done that" club. It seems to be very popular now-a-days.

BTDT.....x2!
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Old 03-11-2019, 09:53 PM   #17
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I started not to chime in but since I have done it I might as well. Well that 3.5 pull it? Yep it will just about jerk the wells out from under it . Will you be over payload? We don`t know only a scale can tell you that. You could be fine with just you in the truck and the family following. You my be fine with some of the kids and the trailer not maxed out if just depends on what and who you carry. In my case it was just me and the wife. Most of the time the wife pulled the boat with the backup truck and had the firewoos and we spilt the bikes. Daughter, son in law and grand kids would show up later. It all depends on how you use it. Wife and I both want to venture out. That means more stuff to tote, more stability, more speed and just an easier tow. I wouldn`t let her tow with the F150 because I had the sway control kick in on me once and I just about had to stop to change the undies. It`s not something you want to experience but it works great. This truck I believe the grandson could pull it lol. I know why folks pull with duallies the stability of Heavy duty trucks there is just no contest . With half tons it is always payload payload payload.
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Old 03-11-2019, 10:05 PM   #18
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Speaking of The F150 and towing. Me and the DW last march took the 250 on the first pull, a little over 800 mile round trip. I thought I was doing good, March winds where blowing but I set the cruise on 68 and just set back and let the truck work. Well after we got setup a camper walked over and ask about the truck and I told him it was the easy 6 hour tow. He said they where from and he liked his F150 that he drove 75 and 80 most of the way. He was pulling A Salem Hemisphere glx bunkhouse. Looked like a family of 5. So yeah I guess the F150 3.5 could jerk a little 2670 around easly. It just want be doing it with me in it.
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Old 03-12-2019, 05:36 AM   #19
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I'm not going to try to re-study the chart so I'm just going from the hip.

You are 300# under gvw of the truck?, using what numbers? Where do you stand on payload - I have no idea what numbers you are coming up with if they use personal assumptions. Off the top of my head just thinking, without trying to interpret the chart; payload - 1450 lbs. (truck). Realistic tongue weight - 840 (7000 x .12), family (5 people - realistically and growing) 700, tools, gear, bikes, toys, hitch, ice chest, other NECESSITIES not listed - minimum 300. Where's that ? 1840? vs 1450?

I guess the thing I and others try to say is that you cannot, and will not, take a trip with 3 children for any length of time with virtually nothing - it just won't happen. The payload on your truck will be exceeded. When you think that the "rule" you will run by is within 300# of your gvw - you are already "too close for comfort" IMO. Use 15% below the gross weights to give you a margin.

IMO forget the chart - it's too convoluted and seems to put a lot of "assumptions" into the calculations. Simple way; trailer gvw, truck payload, gvw, gawr (f/r). Gcvwr is OK but you will exceed one of the others generally before that comes into play. With those numbers, without scale weights, one can at least get some idea of what you have without dealing with some sort of personal intervention in the data - plus those that have experience can shed light on what it is that you will actually end up carrying vs the idea that 25 lbs. will "take care of it".

Thanks Sourdough, unfortunately you ask what numbers I use for my calculations, yet state a couple times in the same breath that you won't look at my chart. I stated in my original post that I'd me happy to expound, but it seems pretty clear that would be futile at this point. I'll sum it up to state that my hitch weight was calculated at GTWR (minus 20% transferred to the trailer axles from the WDH) plus the WDH. I would have enjoyed discussing this as I have seen varying opinions, however saw it tested and proven even at a > 20% xfer. My travels will ALL be local (within an hour or 2) at campgrounds with full connections and stores nearby for all the things you mention. Regardless, your opinion is quite clear and I appreciate you offering it. Thanks All!
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Old 03-12-2019, 05:39 AM   #20
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Towing Spreadsheet

I have a good towing excel sheet that does not use assumptions but GVWR for both the TV and TT. If you would like a copy just DM me. It is very easy to follow and will spit out an answer at the end if you over your towing limit.
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