Another weight question

[Freeheel4life]

Hey everyone,
So this one is actually not camper related. I work at boat shop and we mainly sell tow boats. This segment just keeps getting bigger. Heres an example.

https://tige.com/boats/rzx3
6,000lbs advertised weight, but that's dry. 65 gal fuel cap should be about 400lbs of fuel added if it has a full tank. So its 6400# before an ounce of gear goes in.

Nautique and Centrurion are building even bigger 25 ft boats with even more fuel cap. Tige is just about to release their 25 as well.
SO MY QUESTION IS (sorry for the background)....Should these boats be rolling on triple axle trailers as a standard??
The Tige as listed above was optioned onto a dual axle trailer that has 5 lug hubs and torsion suspension. GAWR is 4088#. GVWR is 8175. My rub is that the trailer weighs 1800# as well(I called manufacturer with VIN to verify as they scale each trailer at the end of the line for the MSO).
IF I'm not mistaken 6400#(boat)+1800#(trailer)=8200#. So trailer is over as manufactured ya???
I brought this up to sales and they contacted manufacturer, and the answer I got back from sales(second hand info) is that you have to subtract tongue weight from GVWR. This seems incorrect to me?? What do yall think??
Funny enough sales also said that manufacturer told them that trailer is
overengineered and that running over GVWR is "OK". I am thinking some of this is secondhand info from a sales guy doing the ol CYA as he didn't option trailers as triples to keep price down.
What are yalls thoughts?? Is tongue weight subtractable from GVWR??
Is it time for a trip to the scales(I believe boat weight may be a bit off, and theres variables depending on how the boat was optioned)?? Is trailer manufacturer liable as they are the one that built the trailer to boat manufacturer specs or is dealer liable should the "worst" happen??
Thanks in advance

[Javi]

Yes in principle tongue weight is deducted because it is not on the axles...

[Freeheel4life]

Thanks Javi. So I know that the ol 10-15% of total weight of trailer = tongue weight around here a lot. Is there a more accurate way to measure/calculate tongue weight??
Only thing I could think of offhand would be to unhitch it between the scales and lower tongue jack onto some blocks. Other ideas?? I have to be missing something.

[JRTJH]

I'm not intending to "stir the pot" but this is the definition of GVWR in the Keystone Owner's Manual:
"GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) The maximum permissible weight of this trailer when fully loaded. It includes the maximum allowable weight at the trailer axle(s) plus the hitch (tongue/pin) weight."

The way I read it (my interpretation) for what it's worth, is that the GVWR is the total of the "ENTIRE" trailer, all its cargo and the tongue weight.

We (the industry not me) have decided that the GAWR (max axle rating) can be added to the tongue weight to "increase the GVWR, but have not (yet) allowed the tongue weight to be deducted from the GVWR so we can add more cargo. The trailer weighs what it weighs, what's on the axles, on the tongue and all added cargo.

I think (IMHO) that the tongue weight is part of the GVWR and it's likely that whoever ordered or spec'd out those trailers made a mistake. As I said, just my opinon, but I wouldn't buy a trailer with a boat sitting on it that weighed more than the GVWR of the trailer (when weighed as a package)..... I would suspect that if it came down to a lawsuit, the dealership would be at fault if the package left the dealership weighing more than the trailer could legally carry.

[Steveo57]

I would say it's over it's GVWR sitting there not hooked up. But when being towed you should subtract the tounge weight as it gets transferred to the tow vehicle.

Living on the edge, that's what these manufacturers do.....

On another thread we were discussing snow loads on RV roofs. There's some substantial weight from a roof full of snow that puts a trailer significantly over it's GVWR. But you don't see any issues from this. Every RV that's sitting outside here in the Northeast gets overloaded by thousands of pounds every winter!

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Freeheel4life]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

I think (IMHO) that the tongue weight is part of the GVWR and it's likely that whoever ordered or spec'd out those trailers made a mistake. As I said, just my opinon, but I wouldn't buy a trailer with a boat sitting on it that weighed more than the GVWR of the trailer (when weighed as a package)..... I would suspect that if it came down to a lawsuit, the dealership would be at fault if the package left the dealership weighing more than the trailer could legally carry.

That's basically what started this whole debate internally. Customer was concerned about the weight and now it seems to rest on my shoulders to try and justify that is "OK". I guess in my mind its really overweight regardless. If tongue weight is subtracted it still leaves very little cushion for gear. Don't know anyone that wants to spend $130k on a brand new boat if you tell them they have to be careful about how much their anchors, dock lines, bumpers, boards, and lifejackets etc weighs.
Its looking more and more like if this deal is happening as is I need to make a trip to the local CAT scale.
Still curious on a way to confirm without a doubt the tongue weight.

[mfifield01]

As a side note. The tongue weight on a boat trailer is substantially less than a travel trailer. One major boat trailer manufacturer recommends 5-7% on the tongue.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

I'm not intending to "stir the pot" but this is the definition of GVWR in the Keystone Owner's Manual:
"GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) The maximum permissible weight of this trailer when fully loaded. It includes the maximum allowable weight at the trailer axle(s) plus the hitch (tongue/pin) weight."

The way I read it (my interpretation) for what it's worth, is that the GVWR is the total of the "ENTIRE" trailer, all its cargo and the tongue weight.

We (the industry not me) have decided that the GAWR (max axle rating) can be added to the tongue weight to "increase the GVWR, but have not (yet) allowed the tongue weight to be deducted from the GVWR so we can add more cargo. The trailer weighs what it weighs, what's on the axles, on the tongue and all added cargo.

I think (IMHO) that the tongue weight is part of the GVWR and it's likely that whoever ordered or spec'd out those trailers made a mistake. As I said, just my opinon, but I wouldn't buy a trailer with a boat sitting on it that weighed more than the GVWR of the trailer (when weighed as a package)..... I would suspect that if it came down to a lawsuit, the dealership would be at fault if the package left the dealership weighing more than the trailer could legally carry.

^^^^John is correct. My trailer UVW and carrying capacity equal my gvw. That tells me there is no consideration for the "unloading" of weight by the tongue. Where the manufacturer does take that into consideration, unfortunately, is when they determine the tire size and load range thereby, in many cases, "under tiring" the unit IMO.

[notanlines]

Both our 35 foot Fountain Lightning and our 38 foot Fountain Lightning were towed resting on Myco Trailers with two axles and Goodyear 16" and 17" rubber respectively. Full of fuel (170 gal) the 35 foot weighed 12K including trailer, and the 38 foot 13,500, Fountains, Cigarette, etc, will generally only put 40-42 foot and beyond on three axle trailers. When the boat gets to 4 axle trailers it is out of our price range. There is no reason at all to put any ski or bass boat on three axles.

[Freeheel4life]

Thanks notanlines. I'm curious if your Myco axles were 5 lug or heavier duty 6 lug axles. I know that the manufacturer that we are getting the trailers from have an "XL" option that uses beefier axles and 6 lug hubs that brings the GVWR up to over 10k in a tandem configuration. I'm curious what the GAWR is on the Myco' s. Time for more googling I guess. Lol.
I've only seen Nautique 25' and Centurions 25' on triples, but don't know if that's standard from trailer manufacturer or by dealer choice.
Not trying to be confrontational AT ALL, but it seems that if the sticker on the trailer says XXXX GVWR and is a tandem trailer, and boat and trailer are over said GVWR do we not need to consider either
A) Another axle or
B) Axles with a higher WR than what is currently there

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Freeheel4life

...Its looking more and more like if this deal is happening as is I need to make a trip to the local CAT scale.
Still curious on a way to confirm without a doubt the tongue weight.

If you're going to a CAT scale, and I'm guessing no WD hitch in use, just park the tow vehicle front axle on the first pad, tow vehicle rear axle on the second pad, trailer axles on the third pad. Get a weight, then tow off the scale, unhitch the trailer and reweigh the tow vehicle front/rear axles on the first and second pad. Then, subtract the rear axle weight from the second weigh from the rear axle weight of the first weigh.

FA= front axle RA= rear axle TA= trailer axle

As an example, hitched, FA 3000, RA 5000 TA 9000
Unhitched, FA 3100, RA 3600 TA 0

The tongue weight would be 5000 - 3600 = 1400 pounds. There is a "little weight removed from the front axle with the load hanging behind the rear axle, but that is not a significant amount of weight.

Total trailer weight would be the trailer axles + the tongue weight or about 10,400 pounds. Again, there's that "little bit of weight" on the tow vehicle front axle, but it is negligible.

Another way to do it would be to park the rig on the scale with the hitch over the second pad and the trailer axles on the third pad, then unhitch the trailer, drive the truck off the scale and weigh the trailer (tongue on pad #2 and axles on pad #3). Few if any CAT scales will allow you to tie up the scale by unhitching, so your best bet would be the first process.

[notanlines]

Freeheel, they were all 8 lug wheels. And your answer would be "B." Trailer axles weight rating will go waaaaay on up there.

[Freeheel4life]

Thanks John for the very detailed write up, method, and formulas. It is VERY appreciated. Sounds like I know what I'm doing Tuesday (have to drag a boat to SLC Monday).
Jim,
Thanks for the clarification. Seems like our trailer manufacturer needs to be running a beefier axle and hub setup to keep tandems. I'm with you on triples, shouldn't be necessary for 23'-25' boats.

[Ken / Claudia]

I think it was mentioned, but the size of the tires and axles have more to do with being able to carry the weight vs how many axles. On the bigger work work I used for 8 years was scaled at 8,000 by me while still hitched to the truck. It had big wheels and tires, sorry I do not remember the size. I checked the lug nuts enough I should remember but, believe it was 6 or 8 lugs.

[Freeheel4life]

So, the tale of the tape....
Setup as mentioned in OP is 305lbs underweight if tongue weight isnt subtracted.
IF you go by trailer manufacturer spec theres an 1100lb cushion. Tongue weight was 820 (manufacturer stated 400lb tongue weight). Total weight of boat and trailer, with no gear and 1/4 tank of fuel was 7560. Between the TT and how big these surf boats are getting Im glad to be rid of the half ton.
I also now know my "new to me truck" is 6480lbs

Thanks John for the explanation on how to figure tongue weight. Also appreciate the stimulating and imformed thoughts from the rest of the gang.

[CWtheMan]

Your boat trailer is built to the same standards as any other “bumper pulled” trailer. Therefore, its GVWR includes its weight - including the tongue weight - and all cargo. However the tongue weight is not carried by the trailer axles. It’s officially carried by the tow vehicle and added to the tow vehicle as part of its cargo/load capacity.

The standard reads - in part - like this. The trailer manufacturer’s recommended tongue weight, when added to the trailers total certified GAWR values must not be less than the trailer’s GVWR.

As soon as a consumer/customer owns the trailer its tongue weight is managed by them.

[Freeheel4life]

Thank you. So the irony in all this was i went through all of this to satisfy a customers worry about trailer being under rated for the boat. Once satisfied he pulled the trigger.
He showed up to shop with a Ram 1500 ecodiesel CC 4x4. As I was hooking him up I polietely told him he was over payload. He stated "No way, my payload is around 1500lbs". I chuckled silently and asked if I could take a peek at his door sticker. 952lbs payload capacity. Explained that the 820 lb tongue weight meant that unless him, his wife, and their 3 kids weighed less than 132 lbs combined he was over his payload.
His response....."Im putting airbags on when I get home".
Thanks again for all the knowledge. I am normally not part of the weight police squad, but considering customers concerns about the size of boat and trailer, I would have thought he'd bring a gun to the gun fight.

[notanlines]

Paden, certainly an interesting story. The vast majority of members here who on occasion are labeled weight police generally are just trying to inform an individual about the truth of the circumstances. When I do jump on the "weight-police" bandwagon I'm normally not telling the owner to trade his Toyota Tacoma for an F-450 before he tows his new Bullet 308 home. It is so he/she actually realizes that the Tacoma is out of the league it takes to properly perform the task at hand. And it makes really good fodder for an interesting read.....

[Freeheel4life]

I can assure you Jim, the weight police crack was surely in jest. Not an indictment or even pointed directly at anyone. I appreciate the guys that at least care to be informed. Im pretty much the Tacoma guy that just remidied his situation.
I would think that this particular customer realizes how much tongue weight he has on his 1500 after his 600+ mile drive back to SLC. He was almost riding on the stops when he left the parking lot. Was just so suprised that he was so concerned that he was buying an overloaded trailer and showed up with that paricular TV after all our back and fourth.