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Old 10-25-2019, 11:27 AM   #1
RVbuying
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Brand new RV issues

Bought a 2019 heartland toy hauler in march 2019. So many issues, shower leaks, detectors going off at night, fresh tank overflows, thermostats replaced first week of ownership and more. So, Oct 15th we turned it in for a 2020 keystone montana. All the same parts i realize but picked it for the floorplan and not too lose but a certain amount of money. Anyway, during the first shower water is leaking from under stall, and the new front window of this model is leaking. And the ceiling fan is about to fall in the floor. Called keystone really just to ask questions. It was shipp sept 19th to virginia arriving sept23rd. So they sell in a few weeks. Is their anywhere consumers are coming together to get regulations set forth by this industry? I was told they arent regulated in mfg. I was told to be a handy man and they will send me pumps parts etc. I dont want to work on RVs and make payments also. I want things to work. This industry is making so much money its ridiculous, we need to get some quality by hitting their pocketbooks for 300 million or more. I cant believe how much money they gotta be raking in. Where does this topic need to be directed. Or ill help an attorney make the case😁
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Old 10-25-2019, 06:54 PM   #2
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First thing that comes to mind is I'd bet your attorney would love to take on a huge company like Thor, parent of both Keystone & Heartland, with their room full of lawyers for 2-3 years or more while you're footing the bill. If you're lucky you could get a new RV in a few years along with several hundred thousand dollar bill from your lawyer.
Next there's not one single individual working for Keystone reading this forum so not likely to get much help from them here. There are however a bunch of great folks with lots of know how that are willing to help you out that can/do work on & pay for theirs at the same time.
The RV industry is what it is & not likely to change any time in the near future.
If you're not willing to work on your RV, and pay for it too, then your best bet is get a good economical vehicle, a high limit credit card, a list of quality hotels, hit the road & enjoy!
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Old 10-25-2019, 07:48 PM   #3
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By doing your own repairs, you will know the work is done right, and you will not have the rig parked at some dealer for months on end, subject to possible damage or even vandalism, while not being worked on. They ought to provide a repair manual with these rigs instead of the junk owners manual.
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Old 10-25-2019, 07:48 PM   #4
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I think Danny pretty much hit it on the head. As you seem to have experienced, RV ownership isn't really all peaches and roses. For those that want to be happy it actually requires the owner to accept the shortcomings of what they are going to get (all forums, all brands, everything) and make the best of it. Do you want the dealership to do all of it? Depending on the issues get ready to see your RV 6 months a year so they can fix something you could do in 15 minutes.

Owning an RV is what it is. If you don't want to spend your time to "work on an RV and make payments also" I would suggest you need to do one of 2 things; sell the RV or pay it off; there is no equation that says you don't have to work on an RV....period.

If you are not capable, or don't want, to do simple repairs (leak under the shower) and want your RV to be "perfect" with no issues.....you are going to be miserable.
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Old 10-25-2019, 09:28 PM   #5
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What's the dealer doing to help, that's who does warranty repairs.
Any RV should be free of defects but there not. And ones that are develop issues sooner or later. I have owned 9 rvs and worked on everyone at some point. Warranty work was done by the dealers.
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Old 10-26-2019, 05:37 AM   #6
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I think there are basically 2 types of people when it comes to home and RV ownership. Those that are handy, have tools, and are able to logically figure out and effect repairs.
. Those that don't have the tools, skills and desire to do their own repairs should rent their residence and rent a cabin if they want to commiserate with nature.
JMHO
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Old 10-26-2019, 09:37 AM   #7
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I agree with the last post and even told my sister in law the same thing several years ago. She purchased a home 15 years ago, but would not learn to to fix anything. We visit 2-3 times a year. I take lots of tools and spend hours fixing stuff she will not learn nor take time to fix. I did not mind except some of the safety things that she would let go. She phoned once her HW tank was leaking, I am 3 hours away. I had to talk her through turning the water intake valve off. She sold the house last summer and lives in an apartment and is happier. She even admitted that to us at the last visit. Having the landlord fix stuff is her way to go.
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Old 10-28-2019, 04:02 PM   #8
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You would think that the manufacturers would want to have a little better quality. Considering every single unit will need to have something done warranty wise wouldn’t it be cheaper in the long run to have it done right the first time instead of paying dealers?
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Old 10-28-2019, 04:28 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Brantlyj View Post
You would think that the manufacturers would want to have a little better quality. Considering every single unit will need to have something done warranty wise wouldnt it be cheaper in the long run to have it done right the first time instead of paying dealers?

I personally don't think the manufacturers (or customers) are wanting better quality. Here's why;

I think at one point they may have had a QC dept. or person but as time went on, the push for more units daily kept growing and the clamoring customer base kept growing, they put less and less emphasis on QC. As time progressed they kept pushing quantity as quality kept falling further into the rear view mirror. The more they made, the less quality they provided, the more units the customers bought. I do think they monitored for any drop in sales due to less and less quality but it didn't happen. Customers anymore want something that can be pulled by a Prius, as large as an apt. and costs no more than a can of beans (metaphorically).

With all that going on the dealer IS the QC for the manufacturer. Do they want to do it? Who knows and it varies. If they don't do a PDI then the customers just get what came out; good or bad. If they are a quality dealer they may find tons or nothing. The problem for them is that the manufacturer zipped the RV through the assembly line not caring what went on and expecting the dealer to "fix" it, but, NOW the manufacturer wants to pay reduced rates for repairing a "new" trailer. In their minds they think they just shipped out a perfect product and now "someone" is questioning it (that could be you) and you need to provide a book to prove that the unit they shoved out the door, with zero oversight, no QC....nothing, wasn't perfect; when most are far from it. And here we are. But, outside, in the parking lot, the crowds get ever larger, the clamoring gets ever louder and the units roll out of the dealership faster and faster. Do we think that scenario is going to make them want to change their business model? Nah.
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Old 10-29-2019, 04:57 AM   #10
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I am throwing the yellow flag! 15 yards for piling on. Bet the OP doesn't feel the love as the sympathy was kind of thin bwhahaha AND he hasn't returned for four days. All hail Thor, the Norse god of blunder!
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Old 10-29-2019, 05:14 AM   #11
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Y’all should be ashamed for treating a newby this way. Imagine, telling the truth to someone wanting sympathy.
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Old 10-29-2019, 05:43 AM   #12
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Tough Love ???? Maybe a "Warm Welcome to the REAL WORLD" ??? How about the possibility of, "A couple of minutes on this or any other forum would have shown you what you're getting into with ANY RV.... BEFORE you bought."

Co-incidentally, the OP joined the forum, made the initial post (his only one) at 3:27 on 10/25/19. He then immediately signed off and has not returned.

Would the OP be a concerned RV'er looking for answers and/or assistance?? or possibly a SNIPER looking to "take a cheap, easy shot then "RUN for the hills" ????

I'd suppose the conclusion is up to each person who spends any time on this thread.....
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Old 10-29-2019, 09:43 AM   #13
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Well... the RVing world is an adventure... lawyers and such aren’t going to help much but they will take your money

I’ve been RVing over 40 plus years with several different makes of rigs..They all had their issues...the new ones have more I think because they are cramming more features in them, more high tech stuff, and the construction techniques are “build em quick and get em out the door” for the most part..

OP should have gone directly to dealership and parked it there and showed them the issues, asked for resolutions, and maybe things would be better in the long run

Posting on social media isn’t going to fix anything in his case.. might make him feel better but solves nada.

That said ... groups like this one and many others I belong to can offer good repair tips, potential resolutions to working with dealership and Keystone customer satisfaction division to resolve the issues on new rigs

If your buying any RV, new or used expecting it to be a “plug and play” experience then I wish you well
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Old 10-29-2019, 10:52 AM   #14
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Some people just need to "vent". Scream and run.
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Old 11-03-2019, 08:39 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sourdough View Post
I personally don't think the manufacturers (or customers) are wanting better quality. Here's why;

I think at one point they may have had a QC dept. or person but as time went on, the push for more units daily kept growing and the clamoring customer base kept growing, they put less and less emphasis on QC. As time progressed they kept pushing quantity as quality kept falling further into the rear view mirror. The more they made, the less quality they provided, the more units the customers bought. I do think they monitored for any drop in sales due to less and less quality but it didn't happen. Customers anymore want something that can be pulled by a Prius, as large as an apt. and costs no more than a can of beans (metaphorically).

With all that going on the dealer IS the QC for the manufacturer. Do they want to do it? Who knows and it varies. If they don't do a PDI then the customers just get what came out; good or bad. If they are a quality dealer they may find tons or nothing. The problem for them is that the manufacturer zipped the RV through the assembly line not caring what went on and expecting the dealer to "fix" it, but, NOW the manufacturer wants to pay reduced rates for repairing a "new" trailer. In their minds they think they just shipped out a perfect product and now "someone" is questioning it (that could be you) and you need to provide a book to prove that the unit they shoved out the door, with zero oversight, no QC....nothing, wasn't perfect; when most are far from it. And here we are. But, outside, in the parking lot, the crowds get ever larger, the clamoring gets ever louder and the units roll out of the dealership faster and faster. Do we think that scenario is going to make them want to change their business model? Nah.
I have owned a Keystone product until March of this year and jumped ship for another manufacturer. And I can relate to the problems the initiator of the posting is experiencing.
And yes, good quality control would be a start-a good process oriented manufacturing program, a good quality program, if you have been in manufacturing I would suggest an ISO9000 system. However, we would not be able to afford the RVs as those costs would be high for a product that is cobbled together with, in my humble opinion, insufficient drawings and instructions, pump them out the door as quickly as possible and let the dealer, and us, deal with the aftermath.
Virtually every towable manufacturer relies on the RVIA as their guide (whatever that is worth) and all assemble their RVs using the same vendor-supplied items and techniques.

However, I have found one towable manufacturer based out of Kansas who builds to order, one at a time. And the price reflects that attention. And it is a price I cannot afford, thus, my Grand Design fifth wheel.

We shopped around and gave Keystone the benefit of the doubt in hoping there was improvement in quality from 2017 models to 2019. Nope. We looked at both the Cougar and Montana line. In looking the Montana appeared to be a rebadged Cougar with a few more shiny baubles.

Is my Solitude much better? Maybe, maybe not. But, I haven't needed warranty work in the 8 months of ownership as I did with my 2017 Cougar.

So, they all have their workmanship and quality issues.
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Old 11-03-2019, 08:46 AM   #16
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my sentiment

Quote:
Originally Posted by flybouy View Post
I think there are basically 2 types of people when it comes to home and RV ownership. Those that are handy, have tools, and are able to logically figure out and effect repairs.
. Those that don't have the tools, skills and desire to do their own repairs should rent their residence and rent a cabin if they want to commiserate with nature.
JMHO
I certainly agree with your post..I am Handy but you buy something brand new.
Is there not a reasonable expectation that things should not be falling apart or defective parts? I call a dealership you have to wait 2 or 3 months!
All i can say is Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
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Old 11-03-2019, 09:23 AM   #17
pdaniel
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Originally Posted by StevyG View Post
I certainly agree with your post..I am Handy but you buy something brand new.
Is there not a reasonable expectation that things should not be falling apart or defective parts? I call a dealership you have to wait 2 or 3 months!
All i can say is Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
I agree, there should be a reasonable expectation of things not falling apart. But, in the absence of we the consumer, demanding a higher level of workmanship, the industry will never change for the better.
As a friend of mine, a proud owner of a brand new Allegro, told me, we, the buyers, are the quality control department.
And lastly, we should not expect to wait for an appointment for warranty work for 2-3 months then have the RV in the shop for another 2-3 months.
But, when the dealers are overwhelmed with warranty repairs due to substandard workmanship, we all pay the price.
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Old 11-03-2019, 09:24 AM   #18
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Well, This is all going to change. Product Quality is going to have to improve or manufacturers will be out of business.

Recent court cases have fallen on the side of the consumer.
IL Supreme Court: Buyers of defective RV not required to allow dealer to fix it before demanding refund

https://cookcountyrecord.com/stories...manding-refund

Accettura and Wozniak purchased the RV new from Vacationland in April 2014. That June, they noticed a window leaked, and Vacationland offered to repair the issue at no charge. A month later, leaking windows during a rainstorm caused extensive damage inside the RV, including electrical failure. Vacationland told the couple it could not repair the defect itself and would have to send the RV back to the manufacturer.

Neither Vacationland nor the manufacturer would give the couple an estimate of how long the repairs would take, and the RV sat at the dealership for more than two weeks without being picked up by the manufacturer. Nearly three weeks after returning the vehicle for repairs, Accettura and Wozniak called Vacationland and “verbally revoked acceptance of the RV.”

About six weeks later, Vacationland called the couple and told them the repairs were complete and they could pick up the vehicle. The pair responded with a letter from their attorney confirming they had revoked their acceptance of the RV.
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Old 11-03-2019, 09:55 AM   #19
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[QUOTE=RVbuying;364330]Bought a 2019 heartland toy hauler in march 2019. So many issues, shower leaks, detectors going off at night, fresh tank overflows, thermostats .../QUOTE]

I hate to beat a dead horse. However the original poster is 51% of the problem because he knew after his first purchase that they do not come perfect. His failure to do a complete inspection prior to taking delivery of the second RV is just neglect on his part.
Come prepared to test every aspect of the new RV including Gas Appliances, a water hose to check for leaks at all the windows and openings, a ladder to look in and around everything. Know that spending three or more hours at the dealership is much better than having to make either a return trip, or leaving your rig at the dealer for 6 months at some future dates. There are plenty of list and how to checks online on exactly what to do when taking delivery of a new RV, and failure to do this research after his first experience is just not acceptable as a beginning of complaints.
JM2C
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Old 11-03-2019, 10:02 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythplaced View Post
Well, This is all going to change. Product Quality is going to have to improve or manufacturers will be out of business.

Recent court cases have fallen on the side of the consumer.
IL Supreme Court: Buyers of defective RV not required to allow dealer to fix it before demanding refund

https://cookcountyrecord.com/stories...manding-refund

...
The last line of the newspaper article (the link) states: "The case was remanded for further proceedings" That means "appeal"... My guess is that all of the THOR legal team will be assigned to make sure this interpretation of the state statute doesn't go unchanged.....

Essentially, if enacted "as it's written" then if the windshield wipers on my new Edge failed to work I wouldn't need to let Ford replace the fuse, I could demand a refund and go buy another one ???? There's a lot more to this kind of situation than buying an RV, having a leaking window and getting a replacement or refund.... Stay tuned for, as Paul Harvey used to say, "The rest of the story".....
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