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Old 03-08-2019, 08:15 AM   #1
Michaeldt
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Am I just nervous because it's all new?

Morning,

I've been talking with friends and other campers in our church, our RV dealer, and scouring through the forum and not getting anywhere so thought I'd just ask.

When the Mrs. and I decided to shop for our first RV, I was looking at the RPod's and other smaller, very light campers. I figured a small one to start with would be great to learn, and then in a few years trade up to something larger. Most times camping will be us and our two dogs, but some times we'll have our grand children with us, sometimes 2 and sometimes all four.

What we liked about this particular model (other than the sales price) was that is has two bunks in the rear where all the grands could sleep, plus the dinette, and the queen master room.

So we decided on and purchased a 2019 Keystone Hideout 262LHS last month. Total length of this is 29'3". Our sales and service techs told us the weight on this camper is 4800lbs; sticker on the trailer itself shows GVWR at 7545 / GAWR at 3500lbs (each axle).

Our TV is a 2013 Ford F150 XLT, 5.0L V8; Sticker GVWR is 7100lb, front GAWR is 3450lbs, Rear GAWR is 3850lbs.
RV dealer installed the e2 WDH system and trailer brake system.

We've pulled the camper four times. Once from the dealership to our home (about 45 miles), then an overnight trip that was around 60 miles one way, then pulled it to our storage area, about 11 miles from the house. When on the interstate and with the truck in tow/haul mode, the front of the truck felt light while steering. I was terribly nervous when we pulled it home (was dark, raining) and tractor trailer rigs pushed me around a bit but kept it on the road pretty well with a white knuckle death grip on the steering wheel.

Our overnight trip was for a gospel music event, about 50 miles on interstate, and about 10 miles on a two lane state highway. Again it was raining but daylight up there, and dark and clear the next night on the way home. I still felt the front of the truck was light, but with drier roads I wasn't as nervous getting back home.

I've talked with my RV dealer and they want to adjust the WDH to help get more weight on the front end?

My question being; have we possibly bitten off too much camper than we can safely tow? It was a great deal, but I want to feel more comfortable when pulling the camper on trips. I'm trying to learn weights and distribution stuff, but it's quite a bit to tackle...so need some thoughts from some of you more experienced with this?

On the chance that I can't get comfortable with this, will it be a hassle with our RV dealer to trade it in for a smaller camper?
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Old 03-08-2019, 08:36 AM   #2
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First, All F150's aren't created equal. There are some 2013 F150 XLT 5.0L trucks with a GVW of 6700 pounds and some with a GVW of 7600 pounds. There are some with 3.21 gear ratios and some with 3.73 gear ratios, some with towing packages and some without towing packages.....

That said, it's difficult to know how your truck is equipped and whether you're over your towing capacity or just under your towing capacity. I'd suspect that with a 30' trailer weighing nearly 5000 pounds "dry" that you're pushing the limit, possibly over the limit....

Here is a link to a recent thread that has a link to a "towing calculator" that you can use to input your specific numbers and get an OBJECTIVE, no frills answer to where you stand "by the numbers". Remember, towing experience, equipment condition (your truck is 6 years old and parts are worn with use), your hitch, how it's set up, the cargo you carry, the roads you tow on, the conditions when you tow (cross winds, rain, etc) all play into how safe your rig will tow. As an example, if you and your DW weigh 300 pounds (150 each) and you carry 500 pounds of gear in the bed of your truck, that's 800 pounds before you hitch the trailer. On the other hand, if each of you weigh 300 pounds and your grandchildren are 75 pounds each, then you're at 900 pounds before you put one brick or piece of firewood in the bed....

Go here to get an idea of what weights you're dealing with: http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums...ad.php?t=36906

So, run the numbers at the link in the above thread, see how you stack up and if you have any questions, many of the members of our forum will give you their "sage advice" on what you're facing....

As an end note, be very cautious of listening to those who say, "You'll be OK, I do it all the time" especially if they don't have all the information on your truck, your cargo, your trailer weight and your experience level.....
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Old 03-08-2019, 09:21 AM   #3
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A couple things you can do to confirm your situation.

Get the truck and trailer weighed at a CAT scales. Weigh twice, with the trailer attached same as you would drive, then park the trailer somewhere and weigh just the truck by itself. Compare the weights on the front and rear axles of the truck in both scenarios. Don't unhitch on the weight pad, that is poor etiquette for others who need to weigh and get back on the road.

Second thing, and much easier, just take a picture of your total rig from the side with and without the trailer hitched up. If the truck is squatting too much it should be pretty clear.

Both of these "checks" will tell you that you either need your WDH adjusted (if possible - I guess stiffer spring bars?) and or to change the balance between truck and trailer (either more truck or less trailer).

At the end of the day, regardless of what others on here say, if you are not comfortable driving the rig and feel safe, then a change should be made so that you are. No reason to make a vacation stressful.
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Old 03-08-2019, 09:47 AM   #4
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I am just going to lay it out there. The trailer in my in my picture is a PassPort 2670 30.6 feet long dry weight 5360. Pulled it with a 2013 F150 5.0 3:55 gears with the heavy tow package not the max tow. The tires on the truck had to be upgraded to Lt tires the shocks had to be up graded and the e2 just did not handle the 30 foot length. On anything that long you need a better hitch something with more sway control. After the upgrades the truck done fine as long as you stayed under a certain speed the faster you pulled it the more the wind effected it. On two lane roads at speeds 50 to 55 it was a dream. Once on the interstate you could tell it was back there in certain situations but livable with the upgrades. The tow guide had my F150 rated at 7600 lbs but pulling a camper I would never want to pull a trailer that length over about 6500lbs. This is just my 2 cents worth of advise. I knew from pulling a camper what I wanted and wasn`t total happy with the set up, doable and felt safe but just wasn`t what I was looking for. Good luck but towing doesn`t have to be a stressful experience. I think I have read somewhere where fastway recommends anything over 26 feet they recommend four points of sway control. I sent you a pm on what I did.
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Old 03-08-2019, 10:50 AM   #5
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I'll have to chime in with the others about the truck. First and foremost we need more information on the configuration, secondly a trip to the scales would be most beneficial. Aside from that....

The gvw of that trailer is 7545. It is 29' 3" long. Here are the specs (scroll down from the floorplan):

https://www.keystonerv.com/travel-tr...ravel-trailer/

I agree that the e2 is probably not enough wdh/sway control for that truck/trailer combo as well as the tires and other things.

Did you overload the truck? Without scaled weights it would only be a guess but very possibly. If the numbers work on the worksheet provided and you keep the truck I would make the suggested upgrades asap - towing a trailer doesn't have to be, nor is it, a "white knuckle" affair if the truck and trailer are matched and set up correctly. Good luck.
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Old 03-08-2019, 11:17 AM   #6
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In 207 when I was looking to trade in my Ford Explorer Sport on a truck I looked hard at F150's with the V8. The Explorer had the Ecoboost 3.5 and fuel millage was poor. The Max tow package comes with the Ecoboost, no choice.
So, having the 5L V8 means you do NOT have the max tow package. You do NOT have the 3.73 gears although you might have the 3.55.
Son, you just flat out don't have enough truck if you are planning long trips.
There is a lot of marketing and sales BS out there but real world if you are planning on towing anything over 25 feet and if the TT weighs MORE than the truck you need a 2500 or F250.
As someone who pulls 8 ~ 9,000 miles a year I am seriously under rated for my truck and can relax during the ride.
Sure, you can do it and there will be folks who say they do but....
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Old 03-08-2019, 11:41 AM   #7
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I don’t know how long since you’ve had a bath, but if you take that RV in to trade for a smaller unit then today is your day for a bath. Avoid that at all costs. Please follow the advice given many times earlier and weigh it as suggested and then post all the info back here. Everybody gave good advice, and we’ll do everything we can to keep you in this RV and truck and do it safely.
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Old 03-08-2019, 04:53 PM   #8
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I am guessing your E2 doesn't offer enough sway control. Which model do you have? Getting a 4pt sway control hitch if you don't have one may help a lot. I have a husky 4 pt sway hitch and I have ZERO sway towing a trailer roughly the same size as the OP. Conversely, my Passport was less stable than my current trailer (Passport was about 4.5 ft shorter); I was running an Equalizer 2 pt sway on that unit.
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Old 03-08-2019, 05:20 PM   #9
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Just wanted to jump in and point out that, referencing the towing guide, in 2013 the F150 V8 5.0L was offered with the 3.73 axle. That gave a max tow of 9200-10000, depending on cab configuration. It requires the heavy duty payload package to achieve that.

I’m curious to know OPs wheelbase, axle ratio, and cab configuration. I have same year, make,model,trim, and engine of tow vehicle. I have same hitch, I have same TT just a couple or few feet shorter (242lhs). I have 157” wheelbase, 3.55 axles, super crew cab. Not many half tons would handle even my TT.. my tow vehicle weight (6200lbs with me in it) and wheelbase are in my favor, but I wouldn’t tow anything longer even with mine. My next truck will surely not be a half ton.
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Old 03-08-2019, 08:30 PM   #10
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Sounds like along with being marginal TV for the trailer, the hitch is not set up correctly if the front feels light. Here is the manual, there is a section on setup the hitch. Chris

https://www.fastwaytrailer.com/pdf/e...structions.pdf
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Old 03-14-2019, 09:47 AM   #11
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I know from past experience the hitch can't be set up right. The trailer and tow vehicle must be loaded the same each time it is adjusted.If you add or relocate weight to either unit the hitch must be readjusted. It is possible to remove too much weight from the tow vehicles front or rear wheels with improper adjustment. Be sure both units are loaded with everything and everyone including the dog before adjusting the hitch.
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Old 03-09-2019, 02:39 PM   #12
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Afternoon all,

Thanks for the posts and questions. It's been a busy last part of the week and Saturday but I do have some more answers for some of the questions. I have not taken the camper to a scale yet, but considering it possibly next week, or more optimal the week after (if we don't return the camper to the RV dealer first).

The Mrs. and I went to our Ford dealer today to look at trucks that would handle our camper, and let's just say we struck out. Found a great truck, but way out of our price range for now.

I did get our sales rep to print off the window sticker to our truck, and here are some of the details that has been asked;

2013 F150 Super Crew XLT
3.31 gear ratio
145" wheel base
5.0L V8

The GVWR listed on the truck sticker is 7100lbs.

I'm not making excuses, I should have done my homework better. My goal when researching and discussing campers was to start out with something like the Forest River R Pod, small, lightweight, and after a few years look at upgrading our camper and truck package.

It is our future goal to be full time RV'ers when I retire (another 10-15 years).

When we saw this model at the RV show, our sales guy assured us our truck would pull it. The tech who walked us through the inspection assured us our truck could pull it. I should have listened to my gut more but when they gave us the price they did on the Hideout, and it had many things that the Mrs. really loved (oven, bunks for the grands, a door for the master area), I neglected my gut and went stupid I guess.

Anyway, we're going to talk with our sales guy again next week. He has told me that we're not the first customer to purchase more camper than they need, and they've worked with customers before in this situation so if they are true to his word, we'll talk about working back into something smaller, 20ft max length, under 5,000lbs, and hopefully come out of this with minimal bruising. I have seen some Hideout models that are under 20ft, and they have most of the things the Mrs. will need, so prayers would be appreciated that we can work something out with our RV dealer.

Thanks for all the posts, suggestions, advice...if I hadn't found this forum I would have been headstrong and forced myself to buck up and fight this monster all over the place.

I did find out from a "car guy" who is a good friend of mine (co-worker), and he said that we can purchase a 3.55 or 2.73 axle and have it installed on the truck, but it would be a $1,200 - $1,600 investment with parts and labor. I'm not sure we want to go that avenue at this time.

I'll try and keep updates on what we find out.
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Old 03-09-2019, 03:47 PM   #13
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Most folks feel that when speaking to an RV salesman, that there is some expertise happening. Many RV sale persons are not RVers, don't understand towing or trucks and bingo, you guessed it, are paid on commission. Before getting despondent over new truck prices (I have a 96 F250 7.5L with beefed up tires and suspension pulling our sub 7K lbs dry weight 5th wheel) take a deep breath. Your problem is the pulling isn't comfortable. Do some research on a better stabilizer hitch and at the same time run your VIN and look at the plate on the door of your truck and get ALL the numbers. Weigh station, if it makes you feel better but I for one don't haul enough stuff for real concern. I do travel with full propane tanks but never any water or fluids in any of the other tanks. We are weekend campers so normal stuff, like hoses, kitchen, some food for the weekend and clothes along a TV set and such... doubt there is much over 500-700 lbs of stuff added to the dry weight of the trailer. Your truck just may be OK if you find the right hitch and are careful not to overload the truck or camper. You MAY be overweight in some area but I am guessing the hitch may be the cause of the unstable tow feelings... Good luck!
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Old 03-09-2019, 04:26 PM   #14
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Michael you've fallen into a trap/mistake so many of us have made and fell victim of asking the wrong people questions who will tell you anything to make a sale. In my case on this trailer, I went in looking for something a little smaller and lighter knowing full well what my truck capabilities were. I "thought" we would be happy with something that fit....when we found this one we knew it was "it" but then there was the truck. I am a truck/car guy so after crunching the numbers knew I would be really close and "fix" the truck to cover any problems. I did....try to "fix" it with bags, shocks, springs, etc. I was only 200 lbs. over gvw on the truck but it drove me crazy plus the towing experience was just not fun. New 3/4 HD fixed that completely. I tell you all that just so you know that you aren't nearly the first to have this happen and won't nearly be the last so don't beat yourself up too bad. I would recommend you listen to the advice you get from the members because these folks are extremely helpful and knowledgeable.

Now, before you go take a big soaking, which is what is going to happen; the guy telling you "we do this all the time" (or whatever) will be glad to take a new trailer back in....minus a hefty sum, resell it at near what you gave for it and sell you another trailer at retail....good for him, not so much for you - let's dig a little deeper into the situation.....

You've provided some basic info from the dealer pulling up the numbers he did. Get the numbers off the stickers inside the driver door of the truck - gawr (front/rear) and payload. Let's look at those. If you can get the vin from the truck I think there is a site that can use that to tell you the options you have - I'm thinking what kind of tow package if any, what type of receiver etc. (I don't know it). You can probably read the weight ratings and class on the receiver (maybe), or, if you can get the options a Ford website might show you what came on that truck receiver wise.

The 3.31 ratio is not a towing ratio IMO. On the other hand, it might work. It will show up in what the truck is rated to "pull", not "carry". I have replaced ring and pinions in my play trucks and had them replaced. They can make a huge difference in performance. The pricing given sounds about right (single axle) for someone to do it and I would opt for the 3.73 for sure.

Just trying to think and see if there are ways that you might be able to salvage the deal, keep the trailer DW really likes and avoid the "soaking" you're going to take if you try to return the trailer. But, it is a 7545 lb. trailer on a 1/2 ton which is about as much as one should pull when properly equipped IMO. See what the numbers say, the ultimate goal is to be safe.
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Old 03-09-2019, 04:08 PM   #15
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I'm really suprised with the ever dealership.im on my fourth tt,and each time I traded up,the first thing the salesperson asked,was info on my truck.before they would go any further
With the sale of the tt.
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Old 03-09-2019, 04:53 PM   #16
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I just wanted to add two points for the OP.

1. One of the members (Soaking?) posted a link to the instruction manual for the E2 hitch. I just wanted to add to this that the instructions for set up are really easy. Best of all, you can go through the motions even with the setup already done - and just see how it comes out. You do some measuring, hitch up the trailer without the spring bars, measure again, then add in the spring bars and measure again. I suggest you do this and see how close you are to what Fastway recommends.

2. There are many considerations when matching a tow vehicle to a trailer. Some will simply talk about "pulling", but that's only part of it. You need to have the power to pull the rig (truck, trailer, cargo, etc.) without causing any undue stress on the engine. You also need to be able to stop the rig without undue stress on the brakes. You also need to be able to control the rig in *all* conditions. Just pulling down a concrete highway in calm winds isn't the same as towing on a curved road, in high winds with 18-wheel trucks spinning by you.

Also consider what will happen in the event of an "emergency maneuver", like a deer jumps into the road in front of you and you have to swerve to miss it, etc. If you're at or over your limit, that's not going to end well.

Have you done the towing calculator yet (the link was posted by John)? Do that and provide back what you find.

I would definitely consider trading in the trailer as a last resort. If you find your truck is not up to the task, then start looking for a different truck. It doesn't have to be new. Consider getting an older, used truck as a temporary step toward your final.

Good luck.
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Old 03-10-2019, 02:45 AM   #17
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Michael, "so if they are true to his word," just what action by this company as a whole would lead you to believe what they are saying? Knowledgeable people on this site are leading you in the correct direction. Give them a chance to pull your proverbial butt out of the fire.
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Old 03-10-2019, 03:46 AM   #18
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Don't take a bath on a new trailer (and you will). Buy a new truck that will handle the additional weight. You will thank us later.
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Old 03-10-2019, 08:51 AM   #19
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Let me throw this out to the crowd; it's what I used to determine what I was comfortable with towing when we got our new rig. The spreadsheet had to be zipped up to be attached as the forum tool didn't accept xlsx files. Maybe it will be useful to someone, and if there's an error I made in calculation or assumption, please let me know.

To explain: yellow columns/rows are user input. Columns A & B contains the manufacturer line and the model. Columns C & D contain the dry weight of the TT and the CCC, both in pounds. Columns S & T are the length and width of the TT, both in feet. This is just for a comparison to the unit we currently had, which shows up in column U.

Column X contains TV information off the door column sticker, the owner's manual and the tow guide. TV cargo information (passenger weights, hitch weights, other miscellaneous stuff that would be in the cab or the bed) is also listed.

Column E lists the TT GVWR, F is the hitch weight (I assumed 12.5% for TT, 14% for 5er), H lists the TV curb weight (from X), J lists the TV max cargo weight (from X), L is the CVW of the TV and TT, M lists the GCWR (from X), N is the percent margin to the GCWR, P is the GCVW (TT GCWR+hitch weight+TV GVWR, a limiting case) and Q is the margin of this limiting case to the true GCVWR.

Any column N value with greater than 15% margin shows up bright green; greater than 10% shows up a dull green; less than 10% margin is a bold red number. I wanted at least 10% cushion for my normal travel configuration, thus the "flag". Anything that showed up red in column Q is a no-go from the start; I wanted at least 5% margin in that configuration.

As can be seen, I meet that requirement for our new unit (Winnie). There were lots of other entries that I cleared out to minimize the busy-ness of the spreadsheet.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that 5th wheel info is way at the "bottom" of the sheet.
Attached Files
File Type: zip TT-TV weight.zip (18.5 KB, 91 views)
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Old 03-10-2019, 09:18 AM   #20
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I agree with everyone else, you're going to get stung VERY badly trying to trade down the rv. Of course they said they'd work with you, but it's a given it will be more to their advantage than yours. Sounds like they sold you a rv knowing what tv you had without ever a mention about it not being enough, did you hear "sure you can pull that, no problem" & you'd believe "they will work with you" now. If it were me I'd be looking at trading for a used truck to handle the rv you & the DW really like rather than giving more money away to the rv dealer, it'll be cheaper, you'll get more truck & still have the rv you like. You could possibly upgrade 2 to 4 years newer truck for much less $$ than trading down to a smaller rv.
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