Ran over the CAT scales today.

[Banshee365]

So, we haven't had out new to us Cougar 339BHS out and about yet. I hooked up to it for the maiden run and took it up to the scales to see what we're sitting with it all together. It's right about where I had anticipated. I knew my F-250's GVWR was going to be pushed and most likely exceeded. I understand that some will freak out about me being over GVWR, and that's fine. You're entitled to feel how you want. The reality is that if you see an F-250 pulling a 5er, it's most likely over GVWR, it's just a fact. I'm well below my rear GAWR and GCWR as well as all of the tire ratings.

I was a bit concerned with the slight nose up attitude of the trailer when connected to my truck. I have a 6" lift with stock wheels and tires on it presently. I was running 37x12.50's on it but being that I'm going to be towing a lot now this truck may not see those tires again. I may even end up removing the lift at this point and going back to stock with a leveling kit at most. The truck actually doesn't look too bad with the lift and stock tires. With the add-a-leaf in the rear I'm not going to need airbags either. With the 1,900# pin weight my truck squats about 1.5"-2". It pulls like a dream, has plenty of power and tons of brakes. It's as stable as can be as well.

Here is where I'm at after 3 passes over the scales. With the nose up attitude I wanted to check the trailer axles individually to see if the rear was getting loaded a lot more than the front. I've seen a few folks around here claim their very slight nose up attitude skewed their axles loadings by thousands of pounds. Not that case with my rig. Not even close.

Ford say's the truck weighs a little over 7,166lbs. HAH! My 2005 F-250 4x4 crew cab short bed with me, full fuel, and the extremely heavy Reese 18k signature series slider weighs a whopping 8,340lbs. GVWR is 10,000lbs. So, you can only carry under 1,700lbs more and you're done if you use GVWR as a hard number.

With the 5er in the bed the truck grosses out at 10,220lbs. My rear GAWR is 6,100lbs and I'm sitting at 5,420lbs on the rear axle. The F-350 for the 2005 model year utilized the exact same rear suspension as the F-250 but had a slightly larger block under the spring pack. It's rear GAWR is 7,000lbs. The only differences in the axle were a hair larger axle shaft diameter and a different spline count. I've yet to here of an F-250 rear axle failure. The pin weight is 1,880 how it sits currently.

The trailer has 8,920lbs sitting on it's axles. The gross combined weight of the truck and trailer is 19,160lbs.

I then weighed the 5er axels separately. The front axle holds 4400 lbs and the rear axle holds 4540lbs. So the rear axle has 140lbs more weight than the front. That isn't enough to be at all concerned about regarding the slight nose high attitude. I am bottomed out on my hitch but I could possibly go up another hole on the pin box. The bolt heads would be right at the skin of the 5er but I think I could do that. With these scale readings I may just leave it well enough alone and enjoy the thing though.

[xrated]

Just curious, when you went over the scales and found out that you are 220# over the GVWR of the truck, was it just you in the truck? Will you be hauling any passengers, other cargo, etc? That of course will add to your overloaded weight and depending on how much additional weight you carry, you may hit the RAWR....and for sure will increase the amount of overload on the GVWR.

[notanlines]

Banshee, first of all, thanks for the detailed read! Not many people actually go to the extreme on weights that you did. I would certainly ignore the 140 pound difference in the axle weights. That will vary from trip to trip anyway. As a sometime member of the "weight police" I will say that I usually only comment about weights when owners drive a 1500 and are pulling a 5ver that needs a 3500, or have not done their research and are living in a dream world having listened to the salesman tell them "This baby will pull it all!"
Any chance you dealt with Camping World in Ocala? Good folks out there.

[xcntrk]

Sounds like you got it figured out. Lifts, big tires, and 5'ers don't seem to mix well (unless you want to go with a flatbed). My buddy has the same issue pulling nose high due to lift, only his 5'er is a toy hauler. When he loads the toy box, the load on that rear axle is exaggerated from the nice high attitude. You have to be especially sensitive to monitoring the pressure & heat of the rear axle tires from the unbalanced load. He can't go any lower on the hitch and has already drag the bottom of the 5'er nose on his rails due to limited space. Going back to stock suspension and/or smaller tires would help to lower it (or going flatbed - can you tell I like that idea )

[Banshee365]

Originally Posted by xrated

Just curious, when you went over the scales and found out that you are 220# over the GVWR of the truck, was it just you in the truck? Will you be hauling any passengers, other cargo, etc? That of course will add to your overloaded weight and depending on how much additional weight you carry, you may hit the RAWR....and for sure will increase the amount of overload on the GVWR.

It was just me. I think the max we would ever be over is 500lbs. Probably less really. There isn't any room left in the bed for the most part and the wife is tiny and our little boy is 34lbs.

Originally Posted by notanlines

Banshee, first of all, thanks for the detailed read! Not many people actually go to the extreme on weights that you did. I would certainly ignore the 140 pound difference in the axle weights. That will vary from trip to trip anyway. As a sometime member of the "weight police" I will say that I usually only comment about weights when owners drive a 1500 and are pulling a 5ver that needs a 3500, or have not done their research and are living in a dream world having listened to the salesman tell them "This baby will pull it all!"
Any chance you dealt with Camping World in Ocala? Good folks out there.

Yea, BIG TIME different between an F-150 and F-250 than an F-250 vs F-350. The practical difference, as I said, is the block in the rear. And the different sticker in the door jamb. I have been to Camping World in Ocala (which is actually two towns from Ocala down in Summerfield) but we didn't purchase our unit there. We walk around there some looking at goodies but the prices are so much higher than Amazon for the most part and they absolutely shove the Good Sam thing down your throat. We're not interested. They have quotas to meet for memberships so I can't blame them really.

Would I rather have a dually? Yes. But, I've had this truck for over 11 years, know it inside and out and plan to keep it for a while longer. Could we have gotten a smaller 5er? yes. But not many would have a pin weight 400-500lbs less than this one so we would still have an issue if you used GVWR as an absolute hard number. We like the floor plan of this one and it is rather light for it's size. The lift may still come off but I'm only sitting an inch high in the front. I can get the stock parts for free so I may end up going that route anyway. The truck pulls this thing like nothing. It's much less than I expected being my first 5er.

[Outback 325BH]

My biggest concern would be the tire rating... since you added bigger tires. And wheels, if you changed those.

Overall stability can change with a lift and bigger tires too. Higher center of gravity and mushier/bouncy tires. All depends what you bought.


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[bsmith0404]

Personally, I'd get rid of the slider that would save some weight. You will probably find that you never have a need for it, but since you have it, give it a bit of time and see if you ever really need it. Dropping back to stock height will take care of your nose high attitude and probably give you a better towing experience as well.

[sourdough]

Big lifts and big tires don't work well towing heavy trailers. I spent many years "building up" trucks, Jeeps etc. for play toys. The lifts have their place in many activities but towing isn't one of them IMO. They destabilize your truck in adverse conditions. You also didn't say how you attained the lift; did you use blocks/new springs/? If you used blocks I would take them off immediately. You are already close the the GAW and the lift amplifies the stresses put on your axles and suspension components so in real life you could very well be exceeding every limitation in day to day towing. Just something to think about.

[Banshee365]

A couple of you guys must not have read my whole post. I do currently still have the lift on the truck but I am running stock wheels and tires. They are E rated.

I still may remove the lift, even with the axles being somewhat close in loading. The rear is lifted roughly 3-4". The lift in the rear is achieved with a 1.5" block and add-a-leaf. Because of the add-a-leaf the truck squats like 2" and doesn't even touch the overload spring with the 5er in the bed. The lift was on the truck when I'm bought it over 11 years ago. I like lifted trucks but priorities have changed after entering my 30's and I would have no problem removing the lift to get back lower to the ground and have mor flexibility with leveling the trailer perfectly.

[kfxgreenie]

The advertised pin on this unit is very close to your actual measured pin.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by kfxgreenie

The advertised pin on this unit is very close to your actual measured pin.

If all of the information provided above is "literal" and not "speculative", then you're right. It looks like the CAT weights are with the empty trailer. According to Keystone's website, the trailer shipping weight is 10450 and the empty pin weight is 1815 which is 8635 on the axles as delivered from the factory (no batteries, no propane no cargo and nothing in the holding/FW tanks.

The CAT weights per the OP's post was: "The pin weight is 1,880 how it sits currently. The trailer has 8,920lbs sitting on it's axles. The gross combined weight of the truck and trailer is 19,160lbs."

The math shows the trailer weight currently is 1880 + 8920 = 10800 which indicates about 350 pounds has been added to the empty trailer, 65 pounds has been added to the pin weight and 285 pounds to the axles. A couple of GP 27 batteries (100) and propane (60) plus throwing the spare tire in the front compartment of the fifth wheel would account for virtually all of his "cargo weight" over the advertised empty shipping weight from Keystone.

According to the OP, when he weighed, the truck it had, "me, full fuel, and the extremely heavy Reese 18k signature series slider". His truck weight per the CAT weight was 8340. Add the pin weight from the CAT and the truck weight he indicates would be 10220. With a 10000 GVW that seems to be "not too bad". But with only 350 pounds of trailer weight (over the empty weight) would indicate to me that by the time the OP adds his camping gear, fresh water, food, tools and equipment needed for the trailer to be functional, then also adds any tools/camping gear and passengers/cargo to the truck, I'd suspect these CAT scale weights to be significantly different. The statement, "the wife is tiny and our little boy is 34lbs." Without insulting his wife's weight, his little boy will assuredly grow and that 34 pounds will become much heavier with toys that go along with his age.

Without getting into any of the safe or not, overloaded or not issues. Unless the truck/trailer weights (as described above) are somehow not explained as indicated, it doesn't appear that the numbers indicate that the rig is "ready to camp". Might be wrong, but it sure appears to be an empty trailer with just the driver in the truck to me and the "ready to camp" rig will be significantly heavier.

[kfxgreenie]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

If all of the information provided above is "literal" and not "speculative", then you're right. It looks like the CAT weights are with the empty trailer. According to Keystone's website, the trailer shipping weight is 10450 and the empty pin weight is 1815 which is 8635 on the axles as delivered from the factory (no batteries, no propane no cargo and nothing in the holding/FW tanks.

The CAT weights per the OP's post was: "The pin weight is 1,880 how it sits currently. The trailer has 8,920lbs sitting on it's axles. The gross combined weight of the truck and trailer is 19,160lbs."

The math shows the trailer weight currently is 1880 + 8920 = 10800 which indicates about 350 pounds has been added to the empty trailer, 65 pounds has been added to the pin weight and 285 pounds to the axles. A couple of GP 27 batteries (100) and propane (60) plus throwing the spare tire in the front compartment of the fifth wheel would account for virtually all of his "cargo weight" over the advertised empty shipping weight from Keystone.

According to the OP, when he weighed, the truck it had, "me, full fuel, and the extremely heavy Reese 18k signature series slider". His truck weight per the CAT weight was 8340. Add the pin weight from the CAT and the truck weight he indicates would be 10220. With a 10000 GVW that seems to be "not too bad". But with only 350 pounds of trailer weight (over the empty weight) would indicate to me that by the time the OP adds his camping gear, fresh water, food, tools and equipment needed for the trailer to be functional, then also adds any tools/camping gear and passengers/cargo to the truck, I'd suspect these CAT scale weights to be significantly different. The statement, "the wife is tiny and our little boy is 34lbs." Without insulting his wife's weight, his little boy will assuredly grow and that 34 pounds will become much heavier with toys that go along with his age.

Without getting into any of the safe or not, overloaded or not issues. Unless the truck/trailer weights (as described above) are somehow not explained as indicated, it doesn't appear that the numbers indicate that the rig is "ready to camp". Might be wrong, but it sure appears to be an empty trailer with just the driver in the truck to me and the "ready to camp" rig will be significantly heavier.

That's what I was thinking too, just didn't take the time to write a detailed post. I suspect you are spot on.

[Banshee365]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

If all of the information provided above is "literal" and not "speculative", then you're right. It looks like the CAT weights are with the empty trailer. According to Keystone's website, the trailer shipping weight is 10450 and the empty pin weight is 1815 which is 8635 on the axles as delivered from the factory (no batteries, no propane no cargo and nothing in the holding/FW tanks.

The CAT weights per the OP's post was: "The pin weight is 1,880 how it sits currently. The trailer has 8,920lbs sitting on it's axles. The gross combined weight of the truck and trailer is 19,160lbs."

The math shows the trailer weight currently is 1880 + 8920 = 10800 which indicates about 350 pounds has been added to the empty trailer, 65 pounds has been added to the pin weight and 285 pounds to the axles. A couple of GP 27 batteries (100) and propane (60) plus throwing the spare tire in the front compartment of the fifth wheel would account for virtually all of his "cargo weight" over the advertised empty shipping weight from Keystone.

According to the OP, when he weighed, the truck it had, "me, full fuel, and the extremely heavy Reese 18k signature series slider". His truck weight per the CAT weight was 8340. Add the pin weight from the CAT and the truck weight he indicates would be 10220. With a 10000 GVW that seems to be "not too bad". But with only 350 pounds of trailer weight (over the empty weight) would indicate to me that by the time the OP adds his camping gear, fresh water, food, tools and equipment needed for the trailer to be functional, then also adds any tools/camping gear and passengers/cargo to the truck, I'd suspect these CAT scale weights to be significantly different. The statement, "the wife is tiny and our little boy is 34lbs." Without insulting his wife's weight, his little boy will assuredly grow and that 34 pounds will become much heavier with toys that go along with his age.

Without getting into any of the safe or not, overloaded or not issues. Unless the truck/trailer weights (as described above) are somehow not explained as indicated, it doesn't appear that the numbers indicate that the rig is "ready to camp". Might be wrong, but it sure appears to be an empty trailer with just the driver in the truck to me and the "ready to camp" rig will be significantly heavier.

One thing I should have mentioned is that, since I haven't been to a site with it yet, I haven't messed with the holding tanks. FWIW I do not plan to do much if any dry camping. The tank level gauges show that a few of the tanks are partially filled. I don't know exactly what is in there as I haven't been able to dump the rig yet. It shows like 1/3 water in the fresh water tank, 1/3 full in the front black tank, and 1/3-1/2 full in the galley grey tank. There is probably a hundred or two hundred pounds of water in the tanks. I plan to travel with empty tanks most all of the time. I'm willing to bet the most of our camping supplies will take up that weight of what is in the tanks now plus maybe a little bit.

Once we do a couple local camping runs to put together most of what we'll need when we go camping I'll run over the scales again. For $15 it's good info to know.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Banshee365

One thing I should have mentioned is that, since I haven't been to a site with it yet, I haven't messed with the holding tanks. FWIW I do not plan to do much if any dry camping. The tank level gauges show that a few of the tanks are partially filled. I don't know exactly what is in there as I haven't been able to dump the rig yet. It shows like 1/3 water in the fresh water tank, 1/3 full in the front black tank, and 1/3-1/2 full in the galley grey tank. There is probably a hundred or two hundred pounds of water in the tanks. I plan to travel with empty tanks most all of the time. I'm willing to bet the most of our camping supplies will take up that weight of what is in the tanks now plus maybe a little bit.

Once we do a couple local camping runs to put together most of what we'll need when we go camping I'll run over the scales again. For $15 it's good info to know.

According to the Keystone website, the 339BHS has 60 gallons of fresh water, 76 gallons of gray (two 38 gallon tanks) and 76 gallons of black (two 38 gallon tanks) So, generally speaking, 1/3 fresh tank = 20 gal = 170 pounds, 1/3 front black = 12 gal = 102 pounds and 1/2 galley gray = 19 gal = 161 pounds, so you're looking at about 433 pounds of fresh and waste water (assuming the tank sensors are accurate and they seldom are). My guess would be that if you bought it from a dealer, the tanks were empty when you towed it home, so the only thing that "should be" in the tanks is what you've added. Tank sensors are not accurate and quite often empty black tanks and sometimes gray tanks register full, partially full when they are actually empty. That's because waste can "short out" the sensor making it register that it's submerged when it's really "high and dry".... The only "sure way" to know is to actually open the valves and drain the tanks.

Most of us will likey say that after a few trips, with the "cargo creep" that occurs, we regularly travel with about 1000 to 1500 pounds of camping equipment, food, cargo and water/fluids in tanks. There are many times when going home with partially full tanks is going to happen. The black tank needs to be nearly full to empty properly, if it's only an overnight, most would not dump, as for gray tanks, using the trailer at home and then needing to tow to a dump station will mean travelling with "water in the tanks".... There are few of us who "never/ever" tow with completely empty tanks.

You're right, spending the few bucks to know where your weights really are is "money well spent". I think you're going to be surprised at how much weight you're towing once things get into a routine and you're "about there with how it's going to be"....

[Banshee365]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

According to the Keystone website, the 339BHS has 60 gallons of fresh water, 76 gallons of gray (two 38 gallon tanks) and 76 gallons of black (two 38 gallon tanks) So, generally speaking, 1/3 fresh tank = 20 gal = 170 pounds, 1/3 front black = 12 gal = 102 pounds and 1/2 galley gray = 19 gal = 161 pounds, so you're looking at about 433 pounds of fresh and waste water (assuming the tank sensors are accurate and they seldom are). My guess would be that if you bought it from a dealer, the tanks were empty when you towed it home, so the only thing that "should be" in the tanks is what you've added. Tank sensors are not accurate and quite often empty black tanks and sometimes gray tanks register full, partially full when they are actually empty. That's because waste can "short out" the sensor making it register that it's submerged when it's really "high and dry".... The only "sure way" to know is to actually open the valves and drain the tanks.

Most of us will likey say that after a few trips, with the "cargo creep" that occurs, we regularly travel with about 1000 to 1500 pounds of camping equipment, food, cargo and water/fluids in tanks. There are many times when going home with partially full tanks is going to happen. The black tank needs to be nearly full to empty properly, if it's only an overnight, most would not dump, as for gray tanks, using the trailer at home and then needing to tow to a dump station will mean travelling with "water in the tanks".... There are few of us who "never/ever" tow with completely empty tanks.

You're right, spending the few bucks to know where your weights really are is "money well spent". I think you're going to be surprised at how much weight you're towing once things get into a routine and you're "about there with how it's going to be"....

I'll certainly weigh it again when we've got a more trip-ready rig after a few short local stays. We are the second owners of the unit, although we can't find anything to say it's ever been used. It may have been a buyers remorse thing, or maybe a bank repo. Who knows. With that said, I think that there certainly is something in the tanks that show that there is as there has been plenty of opportunity for people to either test those systems or something like that.

Would I rather a 1 ton SRW or DRW? Of course. But I'm certainly not signing up for a $700 truck payment if my truck is able to safely tow the unit, even if marginal. If you didn't look at the sticker in the door jamb and just went off how the rig felt when towing it felt much lighter than it is. It handled the 5er perfectly. Very stable and with very little squat on the rear.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Banshee365

.. If you didn't look at the sticker in the door jamb and just went off how the rig felt when towing it felt much lighter than it is. It handled the 5er perfectly. Very stable and with very little squat on the rear.

If I used that criteria for my current trailer, I'd still be towing it with a 2010 F150 FX4 with a 1900 pound payload. That truck handled well, felt much lighter than it was and was stable with very little squat on the rear. BUT......

Anyway, good luck with your trailer, truck and weights.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by Banshee365

A couple of you guys must not have read my whole post. I do currently still have the lift on the truck but I am running stock wheels and tires. They are E rated.

I still may remove the lift, even with the axles being somewhat close in loading. The rear is lifted roughly 3-4". The lift in the rear is achieved with a 1.5" block and add-a-leaf. Because of the add-a-leaf the truck squats like 2" and doesn't even touch the overload spring with the 5er in the bed. The lift was on the truck when I'm bought it over 11 years ago. I like lifted trucks but priorities have changed after entering my 30's and I would have no problem removing the lift to get back lower to the ground and have mor flexibility with leveling the trailer perfectly.

The problems you have are multiple. A "real" lift, the only kind I've ever put on any of my vehicles, requires ALL springs to be replaced and robust hardware installed. Yours, blocks/"add a leaf" are the cheap way out and have inherent shortcomings. The U bolts alone on the blocks are a great way to find "chaos" when doing minor offroading, much less towing - they're meant for looks....what you say you liked in your 20's - not ever for towing or real life functionality.

Your truck is maxed out...PLUS, by all accounts. To leave those "atrocities", IMO, on the truck and try to tow is like grabbing a .38, closing your eyes, pointing the weapon at your wife and child and blindly pulling the trigger. Not trying to be ugly but I've been in many locations doing hard core stuff with lifted vehicles and "blocks/wish I had a real lift" equipment always fails. You don't want that with your family on board, especially with an overweight trailer behind you. Just sayin.....

Everything I've read in this post tells me you are not "marginally" overweight, but when loaded, you will be "grossly" overweight. You don't want a $700 payment for a new truck.....exactly what is the value of your family? What cost do you place on "having fun" and trying to cut corners? I don't know, as has been said many times here.....you have to pay to play. Doing things right isn't always "cheap".

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by Banshee365

I'll certainly weigh it again when we've got a more trip-ready rig after a few short local stays. We are the second owners of the unit, although we can't find anything to say it's ever been used. It may have been a buyers remorse thing, or maybe a bank repo. Who knows. With that said, I think that there certainly is something in the tanks that show that there is as there has been plenty of opportunity for people to either test those systems or something like that.

Would I rather a 1 ton SRW or DRW? Of course. But I'm certainly not signing up for a $700 truck payment if my truck is able to safely tow the unit, even if marginal. If you didn't look at the sticker in the door jamb and just went off how the rig felt when towing it felt much lighter than it is. It handled the 5er perfectly. Very stable and with very little squat on the rear.

Well it seem you understand the difference between a 250 and a 350 SRW. You appear to have about 600# to go on your rear GAWR, so likely you can load about 1,500# in the 5er and still be under the rear GAWR, this assumes that the stock tires you have placed back on the TV meet the 6,100# capacity. Operating a TV over GVWR is a personal decision, but it sounds like you understand the ramifications of doing so.

Load up the 5er and go to the scales with the family and see how it scales, if necessary you can move items from the TV bed to the 5er basement to reduce load on the TV rear axle.

[Banshee365]

Originally Posted by sourdough

The problems you have are multiple. A "real" lift, the only kind I've ever put on any of my vehicles, requires ALL springs to be replaced and robust hardware installed. Yours, blocks/"add a leaf" are the cheap way out and have inherent shortcomings. The U bolts alone on the blocks are a great way to find "chaos" when doing minor offroading, much less towing - they're meant for looks....what you say you liked in your 20's - not ever for towing or real life functionality.

Your truck is maxed out...PLUS, by all accounts. To leave those "atrocities", IMO, on the truck and try to tow is like grabbing a .38, closing your eyes, pointing the weapon at your wife and child and blindly pulling the trigger. Not trying to be ugly but I've been in many locations doing hard core stuff with lifted vehicles and "blocks/wish I had a real lift" equipment always fails. You don't want that with your family on board, especially with an overweight trailer behind you. Just sayin.....

Everything I've read in this post tells me you are not "marginally" overweight, but when loaded, you will be "grossly" overweight. You don't want a $700 payment for a new truck.....exactly what is the value of your family? What cost do you place on "having fun" and trying to cut corners? I don't know, as has been said many times here.....you have to pay to play. Doing things right isn't always "cheap".

Wow, are you usually that hostile with your opinions? You seem to think you're talking to an idiot here (me). I may have entered my 30's a couple short years ago but I've been wrenching since I can remember, mostly on 4x4 trucks. I've installed dozens of lift kits on IFS and SFA trucks. I've rebuilt my 2.5 ton military truck from the ground up. I'm sorry that the lift the previous owner installed on the truck isn't up to your personal standards. Speaking of that, do you happen to know the rear suspension differences between a 2005 6100# GAWR F-250 and 7000# GAWR F-350? A 4" block on the F-350 versus a 2" block on the F-250. Maybe you should call Ford and tell them the .38 bit. My truck is maxed out on all accounts? You mean, on ONE account right? GVWR. If you actually knew what you're talking about you would know the only drawback to an add-a-leaf is the stiff ride. Regardless, did you read the multiple times where I said I still may take the lift off? Or do you just like being combative? Your .38 'thing' regarding my wife and family is down right disturbing. You have lost all credibility with me with that one.

[ctbruce]

Calm down boys, let's keep it civil. Many have expressed concerns and many have understood the situation Banshee is in. He has a plan and no one will know if he is in or out of weight until his camper is loaded up and weighed. Until then, it is all speculation and conjecture. And there is no need for terse talk. Now everybody go back out and go camping or something enjoyable for a while.

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