Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 

Go Back   Keystone RV Forums > Keystone Fleet | Keystone RV Models > Toy Haulers
Click Here to Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 05-29-2015, 09:01 PM   #1
cb1000rider
Gone Traveling
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 101
New Carbon 327 owner

I have some concerns about Keystone's "response" to legitimate consumer issues, however, that being said, they've got great floor plans.

In terms of quality - I read about Raptor being "higher quality" - I see zero difference in quality. I see difference in options and trim level.

This is our first toy hauler, we turned down a beautiful diesel pusher to have something more in line with our lifestyle. With the required truck purchase, it's a 100k+ lifestyle choice. Keystone, don't screw this up....

I'm very mechanically inclined. Where keystone (and most towables) are low build quality (compared to a diesel pusher) - it's also mechanically simple and relatively non-complex. Hopefully we won't have issues - it'll be stored covered and well maintained.

This would be our 4th RV. First 5th wheel. One long trip per year and lots of odd weekends.

Price reference:
MSRP on our Carbon 327 was 64,264.00.
"Sale" price: 48,499.00
Out the door: 51,898.79
cb1000rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2015, 09:06 AM   #2
sourdough
Site Team
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: W. Texas
Posts: 17,598
I think comparing a diesel pusher to a 5th wheel is like comparing apples and oranges. There is no comparison. Both require completely different things and a different lifestyle.

When we bought our current camper I went in with full intentions of buying a nice diesel pusher. You mention that your 5ver and a new truck is a 100k purchase. The diesel pusher we looked at was 400k.....not much comparison. The pusher requires a 2nd vehicle, and drivetrain, which is already paid for in the coach. The list goes on (mtce./insurance costs, how much will you use it to get your money's worth etc) but they really are starkly different as well as the considerations used when trying to evaluate how you will use your camper.

As far as Keystone's response to legitimate repair concerns I can't really complain. Have you had issues? I have had many repairs and I've not paid a cent yet so don't know that you can beat that.

As far as quality....trim level would be considered quality. Solid wood trim vs plastic strips or glue on strips; walls that are attached solidly and don't flop when pushed (ALL brands do it); residential fixtures vs plastic; percelain toilet bowl vs plastic; stainless steel sinks vs plastic; the list is almost endless. Those items are perceived as "upgrades", hence quality. All frames/suspensions aren't the same on all models; another example. Build quality is what you would expect for a mass produced, lightweight box on wheels. I do think all RVs suffer from the "manufactured on Friday or Monday" syndrome.

We've got almost 100k invested in our rig only my first thought wasn't "Keystone, don't screw this up....". I did my homework and I made the choice. My thought is "Dan, I hope you didn't screw this up" since I don't think Keystone will do anything for my new truck, I bought Keystone (they didn't force it on me) and an RV is what it is.....different philosophy I guess.
sourdough is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2015, 09:10 AM   #3
Javi
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Waco, Tx
Posts: 5,456
Beating a dead horse comes to mind... We get it you don't like Keystone...
__________________
2015 Ford F350 DRW 6.7 Diesel XL
2020 Avalanche 313 RS
Javi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2015, 05:08 PM   #4
cb1000rider
Gone Traveling
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 101
I don't dislike Keystone, I like their product, or I wouldn't have bought one. I'd say I'm "concerned" about their supporting their end customers, but I can't honestly say that it's a real issue or just the by-product of selling a LOT of campers and having a few people complain loudly...

Feedback like above helps me get more comfortable.
cb1000rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2015, 05:22 PM   #5
JRTJH
Site Team
 
JRTJH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 26,836
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb1000rider View Post
I don't dislike Keystone, I like their product, or I wouldn't have bought one. I'd say I'm "concerned" about their supporting their end customers, but I can't honestly say that it's a real issue or just the by-product of selling a LOT of campers and having a few people complain loudly...
Feedback like above helps me get more comfortable.
You will have "a few people" complain loudly if you give them free ice cream with sprinkles. Discounting them, the vast majority (90%) of members who responded to a poll conducted on this forum in 2011/2012 indicated they would buy another Keystone.

There's such a thing as worry just to worry and an entirely different concern called worry when it's justified. So far, all you've got is the "ice cream/sprinkle complainers" to base your "worries on". Lighten up and enjoy your new rig. If things go to "heck in a handbasket" for you, then worry and complain, otherwise, all you've done is "convey here-say".... as a member of "rumor control" your facts are based on rumor. Wait until you have a problem and report "your experience" not those you read on the internet and hear in the campground bath house.....
__________________
John



2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
JRTJH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2015, 05:29 PM   #6
Javi
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Waco, Tx
Posts: 5,456
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb1000rider View Post
I don't dislike Keystone, I like their product, or I wouldn't have bought one. I'd say I'm "concerned" about their supporting their end customers, but I can't honestly say that it's a real issue or just the by-product of selling a LOT of campers and having a few people complain loudly...

Feedback like above helps me get more comfortable.
Can't tell it by the tone of your previous posts. What you're gonna find is that most, (not all) folks will only come on the internet to complain.. rarely do you see someone spend the effort to report the great experience..
__________________
2015 Ford F350 DRW 6.7 Diesel XL
2020 Avalanche 313 RS
Javi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2015, 05:47 PM   #7
cb1000rider
Gone Traveling
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 101
I think I've mentioned that (volume vs complaint amount) in prior posts, but thanks for letting me know how I'm coming across.... Their BBB response leaves something to be desired - and honestly it would have cost them at least one sale (mine) - but I had a buddy that owned Keystone for 2 years and had zero issues...
cb1000rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2015, 06:26 PM   #8
JRTJH
Site Team
 
JRTJH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 26,836
The way you're "coming across" to the 90% of us who are satisfied customers who actually like and use our Keystone products is that you're the "new kid on the block" who is blowing off steam telling us how terrible our trailers are. There are a few of us who look past that, but it does get to be very frustrating to have a "new member" tell us repeatedly that we must be "screwed up" because we actually are satisfied with Keystone. It may come as a surprise to you, but many of us have never been back to the dealer for any repair and have never had a failure that could be attributed to Keystone. I'm one of them with two, back to back Keystone purchases, both of which have been everything I expected and more.

Sit back, relax, look around the forum, find things that interest you and please, stop posting the rumors, BBB reports and internet complaints about our trailers.

So far, it appears that you're a new Keystone owner who has not had any problems with your trailer and have no "personal complaints" with Keystone, yet looking at the number of posts you've made about how "terrible" Keystone is, I'd have to ask why the negative posts? If YOU have a problem with yours and want to identify it, by all means post your experiences. You'll likely get some suggestions on how to help resolve the issues and some sage advice on what other's have done in similar situations.

BUT, when you join the forum and immediately start telling us how terrible our Keystone trailer is, you really don't make a lot of friends nor do you gain much understanding or support.

Other forums are different. I know I'm a member of some where you'd have been "tarred and feathered" and shipped out with a resounding bit of profanity. We try not to do that here, but we also don't like to be preached to because we are satisfied with our investment. There's nothing wrong with being satisfied and we've heard the "horror stories about a friend's friend's dad's trailer that Keystone abandoned. Seems strange that we've never found anyone who could identify that person or really find out what actually happened to his trailer, but we still get told that we must be "unlearned" or "naive" because we aren't up in arms over "something". I just have to ask, "WHY" ???
__________________
John



2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
JRTJH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2015, 07:51 PM   #9
sourdough
Site Team
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: W. Texas
Posts: 17,598
My thinking is this;

If I don't have a personal bad experience with a product, and no one I know does, the last thing I do is try to recite a bunch of stuff (opinions) I read on the internet. You mention a BBB response. Response (singular)? Where? How many BBBs did you screen? Maybe some owners might hit up the BBB in Indiana where they are manufactured but elsewhere? I look at BBB responses "sometimes". I know when I do that I am overlooking the 90% of folks that are happy with "whatever".

The posts you have made are negative about Keystone in virtually all respects (except floorplan) and yet you have no reason to base that on except "something" (undefined) you read on the internet. As an intelligent person (well above Mensa requirements); a nit picking, cross the t/dot the I person, I feel I did my homework on a Keystone. I don't think there is anyone that could have done a better, more thorough, job. If you bought one, and you seem intelligent, you did your homework as well and chose Keystone. Why the constant barrage of negativity? It doesn't make sense.

I think you've read some bad stuff about Keystone (it's there with all manufacturers). You've made a substantial purchase and wonder if they will stand behind you. Understood. I bought my trailer based on what I could find out about Keystone (also Rockwood, Heartland, Jayco, Palomino,etc.) and knew that it was a toss up. I think you are looking for confirmation that you made the right decision by making negative remarks and hoping for good answers. That's not the way to approach this.

You have made the purchase. You bought a nice camper. Use it. Enjoy it. At this stage in my life I've learned that trying to worry yourself to death about things that aren't there WILL kill you. If you have issues address them with the dealer and/or Keystone if required when they happen. It's a procedure required by all RV manufacturers. If you need assistance there are so many knowledgeable, capable owners on this forum....they can help you....unless you just want to tick off every person that ever bought a Keystone product...

Lighten up on the rhetoric. Join the fun. Come join us in "the light" This is NOT a personal attack; it's an attempt on my part to understand your feelings and help you feel more comfortable with your purchase....I made my last purchase one year ago and, even with several issues, I could not be happier with Keystone. I think you will find the same if you give your camper a chance.
sourdough is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2015, 08:19 PM   #10
cb1000rider
Gone Traveling
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 101
Hopefully the taring and feathering is unnecessary.

Can you show me a post where I've indicated that our trailers are horrible? I have indicated that all the 5th wheels I've seen aren't great build quality - but that includes other manufacturers too - it's the nature of creating a rolling house, I suppose. And I see a lot of posts about "quality" hierarchy within a manufacturer. This translates to trim level (in my head) and not quality - the manufacturing techniques are the same (at least within Keystone) - I haven't observed more attention to detail in the trim level. It took me a while to parse that out, so I may be slower than most.

Honestly, I've owned Jayco, Holiday Rambler, and at least one other brand. I honestly can't see any quality difference in a Keystone to a Jayco or an HR 5th wheel (mostly)- so I'm going to ask about it before I put money into a purchase. I know more about motor coaches, that's all I've owned - so I'm more comfortable there.

I've never said that any of you screwed up. I'm sorry you chose to take it that way. What I did say was that I just invested a lot of money into family fun and that I hope that I made the right choice - it'd be influenced if Keystone screwed up the customer service end (assuming I even need it).

Quote:
Originally Posted by sourdough View Post
You mention a BBB response. Response (singular)? Where? How many BBBs did you screen? Maybe some owners might hit up the BBB in Indiana where they are manufactured but elsewhere?
As I'm taking heat for being critical, I'm not going to reference the direct page. If you want it, PM me. I did have to sort through to find the right location. I screened probably 30+ responses. I also looked at complaints of other manufacturers for scale. I was attempting to be "fair"... At least in my head.



I WANT to hear from people like you that have never had a problem... That's the point ASKING and clearly investigating this forum - as there was almost ZERO information about the model I was interested in anywhere else. And I believe I've posted that I'm trying to sort out if Keystone just produces massive volume compared to other manufacturers, so the number of complaints may be in-line or actually below others. Manufacturing numbers, if actually available, would have been great data.

I think asking me not to read BBB reports is in-appropriate. That's part of pre-purchase diligence. I'm aware of consumer behavior and that even squeaky clean businesses often end up with unreasonable demanding consumers. You'll note that my concern with the BBB stuff wasn't the consumer complaints - as you get only one side, but the actual response of the business.

I now own the same brand that you do... So obviously happy customers like you have addressed some of my concerns. You'll also note that some of my posts (past) and hopefully future will be technical and helpful in nature - I largely repair all my own stuff, so hopefully I'll be able to add value to the forum.

I try not to post rumors. The biggest rumor I've investigated is trying to determine manufacture quality (not trim level) hierarchy for toy haulers as indicated by posts on other forums.. I think I've come to determine outside of framing technique (wood/aluminum), they're largely very similar. Differences are warranty, factory-direct to consumer support, trim/option level, and general satisfaction when there is a problem.

There are legitimate (identifiable) reports of pretty serious defects on the internet. It's NOT unique to Keystone. If you think that I'm implying that it is, I'm doing it wrong.

I am aware of a 5500 Onan Genset that was a big problem for Thor motorcoaches. It wasn't rumor - I had a similar issue myself with the same genset and worked with owners to help get a technical solution. I'm happy to refer you to those off-forum posts. Gensets shouldn't overheat. Thor was working with owners, but trying to drive a motorcoach in Texas when it's 105 out and you don't have house AC is not fun and is actually dangerous. I think that IS a big problem and I might be able to contribute to how to fix it if it's happening to Kenstone owners with the Onan 5500. Likely "warranty service" won't fix it if it's what I think it is... AT least not in the first 3 attempts. Once again: NOT unique to Keystone.


Again, I like to hear what you're saying in terms of positive comments. And I'd love to hear that Keystone has responded to consumers and worked out issues directly, easily, and in a timely manner - because all manufacturers have issues. Those stories would be excellent.

And lastly, I'm an owner too. Zero problems to date. I was just nervous prior to purchase on something that is non-trivial in terms of cost and right on the line of go/no-go. There are a number of posts by Carbon owners here on this forum that helped me make that "Buy" decision.
cb1000rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2015, 08:29 PM   #11
Albert
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Oregon
Posts: 73
I normally agree with almost all the comments made by our senior members who have commented on this post. But, up I must say I did not see anything wrong with the original post and think maybe some others who posted, other than the original poster, needs to have an adult beverage and maybe a chill pill. Lighten up guys, maybe a camping trip will relax you!

John
__________________
John & Arlene
Albert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2015, 09:04 PM   #12
Festus2
Site Team
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Fraser Valley BC Canada
Posts: 7,015
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb1000rider View Post
Hopefully the taring and feathering is unnecessary.

Can you show me a post where I've indicated that our trailers are horrible?

I just ran a search to make sure I didn't say "screwed up" in any of my posts. I couldn't find that reference, but maybe it's not an exact match.

I WANT to hear from people like you that have never had a problem..


You'll also note that some of my posts (past) and hopefully future will be technical and helpful in nature - I largely repair all my own stuff, so hopefully I'll be able to add value to the forum.

There are legitimate (identifiable) reports of pretty serious defects on the internet. It's NOT unique to Keystone. If you think that I'm implying that it is, I'm doing it wrong.

Again, I like to hear what you're saying in terms of positive comments. .
While you didn't state "our" trailers are horrible, you used the word Keystone enough times for "us" to conclude that you were being critical of Keystone and their product - aka "our trailers". After all, we are almost all Keystone owners here so what other conclusion could we come to?

If you read your OP in the Toy Hauler forum (post #1), you said, "Keystone, don't screw this up". You're right - it's not an exact match but close enough.

I have owned and kept our Cougar since we bought it in '08. I've never had a problem serious enough to take it back to the dealer or to contact Keystone.

Yes, I do hope that you will post some informative and helpful posts in the future. Posts that are based on your experience and travels with your new Carbon. We have all read about negative experiences posted by some of our members with Keystone. Hopefully, your experiences will be positive ones. In the meantime, I can't see anything constructive in reading more negative and critical posts about Keystone especially those that are gleaned from rumors, the Internet or a friend of a friend. You haven't had any problems yet so let's give Keystone and your Carbon a fair and reasonable chance.
__________________
2008 Cougar 5th Wheel 27RKS
2005 2500 GMC Duramax
Festus2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2015, 09:05 PM   #13
sourdough
Site Team
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: W. Texas
Posts: 17,598
cb1000rider - maybe we aren't speaking the same lingo.

I just wrote a long post trying to determine what it is that you are trying to ascertain about "quality". A new post came in and said we should "chill".
Maybe so. I'm not sure I know the answer you're looking for from my experience.

You are very absorbed in "experiences" of Keystone owners with Keystone. Use the search function and you will find many happy/unhappy comments; mine are among them.

Again, I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. You've not had problems; you have a great trailer......why the fixation of some debilitating failure? Just have fun. Trying to assimilate tons of information of owner's good/bad experiences, when you have none to compare to.......is pointless IMO and ruins your experience. You've got a great rig - use it and be happy; let the questions arise when they are needed

**I was writing this before I saw the post from Festus2 - which is a x2
sourdough is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2015, 09:12 PM   #14
cb1000rider
Gone Traveling
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 101
The point was that papers weren't signed until today..... If I had been sitting on one for a month and was asking for those experiences, yea, you're 100% correct. Pre-purchase, I'm very likely to dig as deeply as possible - that includes documented internet experiences, BBB, as well as post by as many happy owners as I can find. Heck, I was grilling the service guys.

My family, especially my son, is very excited...
cb1000rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2015, 09:24 PM   #15
sourdough
Site Team
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: W. Texas
Posts: 17,598
I think you've made a good choice. From my research (on the foot/in the lot) Keystone will compare to anything out there. To me motorhome experience cheats you from the fun you can have in a regular RV (just had that conversation this afternoon with a motorhome owner for the last 4 years sitting next to me). Not trying to start a conversation on motorhome vs camper but just to illustrate what may be a difference in your previous experience.

It's great your son is excited, as I hope the rest of the family is, to get out and have fun. You've got a great rig all it takes is the "want to"!!

I'm wishing you the best on your Keystone ownership and you need to know there are lots of REALLY knowledgeable folks on this forum that want you to have a problem free, care free, fun experience with your new camper. Keep us posted.
sourdough is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2015, 09:51 PM   #16
cb1000rider
Gone Traveling
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 101
Thanks, sourdough.
cb1000rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2015, 03:16 AM   #17
1jeep
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: ma
Posts: 147
While I haven't owned my 327 for more than a few weeks I can say I don't expect the same build quality form my $50k trailer as I would from a $400k coach!

As for keystone, we owned a 2007 outback Sydney since new, it gave us 8 great years of travel and camping! YEs we had a couple issues, one being that the decals peeled off in places, but I also know of someone with a different brand that is now having the same issue.

Just make your purchase and enjoy it no matter what brand!
__________________
2016 F350 Dually Crew diesel
2015 carbon 327
1jeep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2015, 03:57 AM   #18
bsmith0404
Senior Member
 
bsmith0404's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Las Cruces
Posts: 4,665
Quote:
Originally Posted by Albert View Post
I normally agree with almost all the comments made by our senior members who have commented on this post. But, up I must say I did not see anything wrong with the original post and think maybe some others who posted, other than the original poster, needs to have an adult beverage and maybe a chill pill. Lighten up guys, maybe a camping trip will relax you!

John
Maybe I should have just let this thread die instead of responding, but I'm confused. Maybe the OP was edited, maybe I just interpreted the OP differently, or maybe there are other posts in other threads that created the stir. Outside of all of that, I have to agree with the quote above.

Or maybe it's that I just returned from a camping trip where I had a few adult beverages
__________________

Brent
2013 Alpine 3500RE
2019 Silverado 2500HD Duramax
U.S. Air Force Retired (25 yrs)
bsmith0404 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2015, 06:52 AM   #19
sourdough
Site Team
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: W. Texas
Posts: 17,598
bsmith0404 - Read all posts on all threads and draw your own conclusion. Just a matter of approach IMO and I think all is well.

Just back from Pagosa I guess. It may be those adult beverages.....you know they affect you differently when you're up in that beautiful country. Did you get to do any fishing? Sounded like you spent a lot of time on other things. Did you float the San Juan and is it up pretty good? Last year there wasn't a lot of snow runoff like usual and it stayed kind of low compared to normal years. I'm going to try to get there for a month or so in the next few weeks.
sourdough is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2015, 07:22 AM   #20
Face Down
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: RDU Carolina
Posts: 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb1000rider View Post
Pre-purchase, I'm very likely to dig as deeply as possible - that includes documented internet experiences, BBB, as well as post by as many happy owners as I can find.
I have only had my 357 for a month and only spent 5 nights in it...but I can tell you that I extremely happy with my unit. To date I have only found two issues, and I have crawled all over this thing and ran everything with the exception of the Fuel Station. The two issues were a broken generator tail pipe hanger and the 1/2 bath clean out check valve is not functioning. Both things that I can easily fix myself and I will wait for a few more nights in the camper before I send a hit list to my dealer/Keystone. This is my 3rd RV (First Keystone, not my first Thor), all new and by far the nicest one that I have owned. From a quality standpoint I have zero issues...very impressed with my Keystone experience so far.
__________________
2016 Keystone Carbon 357
2006 F350 4WD CC LB DRW (aka Big Sexy)
Reese 20K Goose Box/Draw-Tite Remove-a-Ball
Face Down is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates in any way. Keystone RV® is a registered trademark of the Keystone RV Company.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.