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09-21-2018, 08:52 AM
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#1
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Akron
Posts: 459
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Why tires fail the answer from tire engineer
Tires fail from two basic causes.
Low air pressure
and/or
Long-term degradation of the rubber usually from excess heat.
Low pressure (active leak from puncture or loose valve stem or valve core are most common reasons) can lead to a Sidewall Flex failure or more commonly called a "Blowout". The sidewall cord can melt (polyester) or fatigue (steel). Many TT owners fail to realize that they will never "feel" the results of a tire losing air till it is too late and they are surprised when the sidewall lets go. The rapid air loss "bang" even when the tire only has about 10 to 20 psi in it, is a big surprise IF they even hear it. [moderator edit] A TPMS can provide warning of air loss so is good insurance and can easily pay for itself.
The long-term degradation of the rubber at the edges of the belts can lead to a belt and/or tread separation. Even if the tire keeps its air you can have this type of failure so a TPMS will not provide a warning. This degradation comes with age as rubber is always losing flexibility. Just think of those rubber bands you found in the back of the desk drawer. Even in cool and dark they got brittle. HOWEVER, running at or near or above the load capacity of a tire will result in increased heat generation. Increased heat actually can accelerate the aging process with a doubling of the rate each increase on 18F. Running a margin of at least 15% between capacity and the measured load is a good first step. Running at a higher speed will also generate excess heat.
Realizing that over half of the RVs on the road has one or more tire or axle in overload is one main contributor to the high tire failure rate. Simply thinking that a tire will fail because the tire plant building is painted blue rather than green is not logical.
Buying the lowest cost "no-name" tires is IMO a major contributor to poor results. If the main objective is the lowest cost tire why would anyone be surprised with short tire life.
Just paying more, however, is no guarantee of better quality. I believe the best tool available is comparing Warranty and service support.
Can you get a multi-year warranty on the tires? Is it possible to get Road Hazard coverage? Is there a nationwide network of dealers who stock the brand you are considering?
__________________
Retired Tire Design Engineer (40 years). Serve on FMCA Tech Advisory Committee. Write a blog RV Tire Safety. Read THIS post on Why Tires Fail.
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09-30-2018, 03:24 AM
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#2
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Site Team | Emeritus
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 3,878
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All good points. Thanks for sharing.
__________________
Chip Bruce, RPh
Kansas City, MO
2016 Impact 312
2017 Silverado 3500HD SRW
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09-30-2018, 03:33 AM
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#3
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Lake Stevens
Posts: 764
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I will also argue that ST tires with an A/S tread design have been ripping themselves apart for many years in tight maneuvers. You will notice that GY with new Endurance ST has gone to a less aggressive tread pattern. Chris
__________________
2019 Laredo 225MK for travel. Bighorn 3575el summer home in Washington, Park Model with Arizona Room for winters.
2015 RAM 3500 SRW CC SB Aisin Laramie
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09-30-2018, 08:53 AM
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#4
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Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Mcdonald
Posts: 7
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Thanks, for your previous information. As a tire engineer, is there any reason to use ST tires over LT for my 14,000 5th wheel.
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09-30-2018, 09:01 AM
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#5
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Akron
Posts: 459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny
Thanks, for your previous information. As a tire engineer, is there any reason to use ST tires over LT for my 14,000 5th wheel.
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I can think of many reasons to run ST type.
- The RV company didn't leave enough room for physically larger tires
- You don't want to buy wheels with higher inflation capacity
- You like buying tires with shorter life because you want to be able to drive the speed limit posted for cars
- You don't want to make the effort to learn the actual load on each tire and to then search for a non- ST tire with sufficient load capacity to support the heaviest loaded tire position.
(Sorry for the sarcasm)
__________________
Retired Tire Design Engineer (40 years). Serve on FMCA Tech Advisory Committee. Write a blog RV Tire Safety. Read THIS post on Why Tires Fail.
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09-30-2018, 09:36 AM
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#6
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Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Mcdonald
Posts: 7
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I am not sure I understand your sarcasm. My question was sincere. On these forums many recommend various LT tires over ST. It is because I have researched the specifications on the tires and axels on my 305RL that I asked my question. I do not have more than 10% difference between load and tire specs. The max speed listed is only 65, that is too low for safe highway speeds. I have purchased the ford Internal TPMS units and I have room for a taller tires, available on my 16 inch wheels. If an LT with better specs will be safer in my upcoming trip across Alaska then $100 more a tire is acceptable. BTW I maintain the air pressue on all ten tires. What I can't seam to find is where in the specs ST are superior to LT.
__________________
Benny Smith
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09-30-2018, 03:19 PM
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#7
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Lake Stevens
Posts: 764
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If you have 6k axles, the best tire you can run is thichelin XPS Rib or Bridgestone Duravis R250. If you wheels are rated to 110 pounds then the Sailing S637 LRG comes in two 16" sizes. All of these tires are steel ply tires, and are good for 6-8 years. Chris
__________________
2019 Laredo 225MK for travel. Bighorn 3575el summer home in Washington, Park Model with Arizona Room for winters.
2015 RAM 3500 SRW CC SB Aisin Laramie
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09-30-2018, 06:07 PM
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#8
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Site Team
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: W. Texas
Posts: 17,695
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny
I am not sure I understand your sarcasm. My question was sincere. On these forums many recommend various LT tires over ST. It is because I have researched the specifications on the tires and axels on my 305RL that I asked my question. I do not have more than 10% difference between load and tire specs. The max speed listed is only 65, that is too low for safe highway speeds. I have purchased the ford Internal TPMS units and I have room for a taller tires, available on my 16 inch wheels. If an LT with better specs will be safer in my upcoming trip across Alaska then $100 more a tire is acceptable. BTW I maintain the air pressue on all ten tires. What I can't seam to find is where in the specs ST are superior to LT.
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Benny, you are being drawn into the "ST vs LT" tire conversation by those that have biased views; do your due diligence. There is a reason there is a differentiation between tires made to carry large loads on fixed axles, twist and turn as they are maneuvered etc. Some believe, and at times in the past were probably correct, that ST tires just didn't "measure up" to the construction standards of an LT tire. Those times have changed. ST tires were "trailer" tires. They were placed on a 16' flatbed, the old 12' enclosed side utility trailer etc. They were used on RVs back when and the units were much smaller. As times have changed and the trailers have gotten larger, much larger, the ST tire requirements 1) lagged far behind the evolution of the trailers they were being put on and 2) tire requirements for those trailers failed everyone as well.
That was then; remember the Goodyear Marathon? Over the last many years we have endured the proliferation of the China Bombs; cheaply made tires that managed to meet ST tire requirements (maybe) but made with the poorest of components and no quality control. So, many looked to LT tires as an alternative to give them a better tire, not a better towing tire, but one that they felt was "stronger" or "tougher".
Now, ST tire manufacturers have "gotten much smarter" and started providing tires that can actually provide excellent service for the ST rating. The old days of "LT tires are superior because STs are poorly made", "aren't designed properly" etc. are gone. There IS a difference in the construction of the tires; carrying an RV with 10-15k just sitting on the tires, scrubbing harshly any time the trailer is turned etc. requires a different construction and rubber compound than an auto tire made to carry a regular vehicle. Just look into the zillions of rubber compounds and material construction for the endless variants of tires.
Long post but you are sincerely looking for guidance and thoughts on your tires, I am sure without "sarcasm". I am not biased either way. I use LTs on my trucks/SUVs, I use STs on trailers because that is what is recommended for them (mine). Whatever you choose make sure that the tire has plenty of load capacity to provide a significant reserve above your load weight.
__________________
Danny and Susan, wife of 56 years
2019 Ram 3500 Laramie CC SWB SB 6.4 4x4 4.10
2020 Montana High Country 331RL
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09-30-2018, 09:05 PM
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#9
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sourdough
Benny, you are being drawn into the "ST vs LT" tire conversation by those that have biased views; do your due diligence. There is a reason there is a differentiation between tires made to carry large loads on fixed axles, twist and turn as they are maneuvered etc. Some believe, and at times in the past were probably correct, that ST tires just didn't "measure up" to the construction standards of an LT tire. Those times have changed. ST tires were "trailer" tires. They were placed on a 16' flatbed, the old 12' enclosed side utility trailer etc. They were used on RVs back when and the units were much smaller. As times have changed and the trailers have gotten larger, much larger, the ST tire requirements 1) lagged far behind the evolution of the trailers they were being put on and 2) tire requirements for those trailers failed everyone as well.
That was then; remember the Goodyear Marathon? Over the last many years we have endured the proliferation of the China Bombs; cheaply made tires that managed to meet ST tire requirements (maybe) but made with the poorest of components and no quality control. So, many looked to LT tires as an alternative to give them a better tire, not a better towing tire, but one that they felt was "stronger" or "tougher".
Now, ST tire manufacturers have "gotten much smarter" and started providing tires that can actually provide excellent service for the ST rating. The old days of "LT tires are superior because STs are poorly made", "aren't designed properly" etc. are gone. There IS a difference in the construction of the tires; carrying an RV with 10-15k just sitting on the tires, scrubbing harshly any time the trailer is turned etc. requires a different construction and rubber compound than an auto tire made to carry a regular vehicle. Just look into the zillions of rubber compounds and material construction for the endless variants of tires.
Long post but you are sincerely looking for guidance and thoughts on your tires, I am sure without "sarcasm". I am not biased either way. I use LTs on my trucks/SUVs, I use STs on trailers because that is what is recommended for them (mine). Whatever you choose make sure that the tire has plenty of load capacity to provide a significant reserve above your load weight.
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Sourdough, sorry to disagree, but ST tire are built to a lower standard. Their newer increased speed ratings are due to use of magic speed rating dust.
I have stated it many times before Semis dont have special ST tires for trailers, all tires have the same carcass, LTs work well on 5er with a GVWR of about 12,500#.
__________________
Russ & Paula and Belle the Beagle.
2016 Ram Laramie 3500 DRW 14,000# GVWR (New TV)
2005 Copper Canyon 293 FWSLS 32 GVWR 12,360
Visit and enjoy Oregon State Parks
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10-01-2018, 07:34 AM
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#10
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Akron
Posts: 459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny
I am not sure I understand your sarcasm. My question was sincere. On these forums many recommend various LT tires over ST. It is because I have researched the specifications on the tires and axels on my 305RL that I asked my question. I do not have more than 10% difference between load and tire specs. The max speed listed is only 65, that is too low for safe highway speeds. I have purchased the ford Internal TPMS units and I have room for a taller tires, available on my 16 inch wheels. If an LT with better specs will be safer in my upcoming trip across Alaska then $100 more a tire is acceptable. BTW I maintain the air pressue on all ten tires. What I can't seam to find is where in the specs ST are superior to LT.
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OK sorry for sarcasm
LT tires do have more difficult tests to pass DOT requirements. Some consider that as meaning LT tires are better than ST.
ST tire load capacity is higher than LT tires Some consider that makes them better.
ABout the only yardstick that we can use once we have confirmed the tire load capacity of the tires we are considering is to compare warranties. Especially if you can get a Road Hazard warranty which means there is no exception for getting a warranty replacement.
There is no way for me to know all the possible warranties different dealers can offer so you will need to do the shopping yourself.
So knowing the load capacity you need you can look up the load capacity and inflation of LT tires. Then get on the phone.
Hope that helps.
__________________
Retired Tire Design Engineer (40 years). Serve on FMCA Tech Advisory Committee. Write a blog RV Tire Safety. Read THIS post on Why Tires Fail.
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10-01-2018, 07:36 AM
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#11
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Akron
Posts: 459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoking
If you have 6k axles, the best tire you can run is thichelin XPS Rib or Bridgestone Duravis R250. If you wheels are rated to 110 pounds then the Sailing S637 LRG comes in two 16" sizes. All of these tires are steel ply tires, and are good for 6-8 years. Chris
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Based on what I have seen and reports I have read the above makes sense.
__________________
Retired Tire Design Engineer (40 years). Serve on FMCA Tech Advisory Committee. Write a blog RV Tire Safety. Read THIS post on Why Tires Fail.
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10-01-2018, 11:08 AM
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#12
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Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Mcdonald
Posts: 7
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Thanks for the info
That does help.
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10-06-2018, 01:03 PM
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#13
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Taylors, SC
Posts: 3,031
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny
That does help.
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Depends on your point of view and adherence to tire industry standards and safety.
Michelin will not knowingly replacer original equipment ST tires with any of their LT tires. The link below supports that statement.
https://www.michelinman.com/US/en/he...res.html#tab-4
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10-06-2018, 01:12 PM
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#14
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Taylors, SC
Posts: 3,031
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoking
If you have 6k axles, the best tire you can run is thichelin XPS Rib or Bridgestone Duravis R250. If you wheels are rated to 110 pounds then the Sailing S637 LRG comes in two 16" sizes. All of these tires are steel ply tires, and are good for 6-8 years. Chris
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There is an added reason why that will no longer happen with the LRE 16" XPS & R250 tires. They cannot provide the 10% of load capacity in reserves above the axle rating as required in the RVIA recommendations.
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10-06-2018, 01:23 PM
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#15
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Lake Stevens
Posts: 764
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CWtheMan
There is an added reason why that will no longer happen with the LRE 16" XPS & R250 tires. They cannot provide the 10% of load capacity in reserves above the axle rating as required in the RVIA recommendations.
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That would only apply to new trailers and their OEM tires.
__________________
2019 Laredo 225MK for travel. Bighorn 3575el summer home in Washington, Park Model with Arizona Room for winters.
2015 RAM 3500 SRW CC SB Aisin Laramie
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10-07-2018, 07:31 AM
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#16
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Holland ( Europe)
Posts: 178
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Why are there ST tires of same sises and loadrange,as LT tire, with higher maximum load then the LT tire.
Its because ST tire then is calculated in maximum load for lower speed, mostly 65mh, even if they give N speedrating for 87mh.
Lower speed means less cycles a second so less heatproduction a second.
So the tire can have more deflection so more heatproduction a cycle.
With same pressure this means more load to carry .
But this brings overheating border closer, a bit to high load or speed, or a bit to low pressure, gives already more heatproduction then can be cooled down, and rubber goes above a temp at wich it damages ireversible, then time will do the rest. The beginning crackes then crack further at every next cycle, until at the end, mayby even after 3 years, the tire is that much damaged that it blows or treath comes of.
Thats why it is best to give the tire a deflection the same as same LT tire would be calculated for. Mostly this means a pressure above what is allowed for that tire.
An LT tire nowadays pressure behind AT, is maximum allowed cold pressure, in earlyer days higher was allowed , mostly 10 psi, and prescribed even for ST tires for 75mh.
In Europe there are CP tyres especially meanth for Motorhomes( called Camper in Holland, CP ) .
Most are D load tires with 65 or 69 psi behind AT.
But max allowed pressure is 80 psi, and its sayd to be for covering peackloads , wich I explain as the overloading, often seen on rear axle of european Campers.
Then if pressure calculates above AT , you are allowed that pressure, and tou better use that to be in the clear with mother nature, though the tiremaker officially dont support the higher loadcapacity belonging to this higher pressure .
Continental groop( Continental, Semperit,Vanco,Viking) gives often on tyres for eur market, both pressures, and without AT behind sises fi 65 psi , and max inflation pressure cold of that 10 psi higher, and then higher then AT-pressure is allowed, and better most times be used to be safe to laws of nature.
End of my story is that mother nature rules above rules and prescriptions of tire and vehicle makers.
And that is what users want from their tires, a long and safe use,
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10-07-2018, 08:27 AM
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#17
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Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: MIddletown
Posts: 2
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New tires
I have a Montana high country 344RL and I was wondering what tires would I replace mine with when it comes time to get new tires
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10-07-2018, 09:30 AM
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#18
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Lake Stevens
Posts: 764
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gmdiii
I have a Montana high country 344RL and I was wondering what tires would I replace mine with when it comes time to get new tires
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Something equal to or better than what it came with. Appears GVWR is 14,200 and most likely has 7K GAWR. I would look at the Sailun ST235/80R16G all steel ply as a replacement. Tire pressure would be your choice, they will not need 110 pounds. 90-95 would most likely be fine.
What tires are on it now? Chris
KEY SPECIFICATIONS - 344RL FIFTH WHEEL
Shipping Weight
11472
Carrying Capacity
2728
Hitch
2265
Length
36' 4"
Height
13' 4"
Fresh Water
66
Waste Water
49
Gray Water
98
LPG
60
Tire-Size
ST235/80R16F
__________________
2019 Laredo 225MK for travel. Bighorn 3575el summer home in Washington, Park Model with Arizona Room for winters.
2015 RAM 3500 SRW CC SB Aisin Laramie
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10-07-2018, 10:32 AM
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#19
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Ocean Isle Beach
Posts: 1,431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gmdiii
I have a Montana high country 344RL and I was wondering what tires would I replace mine with when it comes time to get new tires
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Sailun S637. The same tire coming on Montana today.
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2022.Montana 3855 BR
2019 F350 6.7 4X4 DRW
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10-07-2018, 10:35 AM
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#20
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Ocean Isle Beach
Posts: 1,431
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True and the company will provide a weight/psi chart if requested.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snoking
Something equal to or better than what it came with. Appears GVWR is 14,200 and most likely has 7K GAWR. I would look at the Sailun ST235/80R16G all steel ply as a replacement. Tire pressure would be your choice, they will not need 110 pounds. 90-95 would most likely be fine.
What tires are on it now? Chris
KEY SPECIFICATIONS - 344RL FIFTH WHEEL
Shipping Weight
11472
Carrying Capacity
2728
Hitch
2265
Length
36' 4"
Height
13' 4"
Fresh Water
66
Waste Water
49
Gray Water
98
LPG
60
Tire-Size
ST235/80R16F
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__________________
2022.Montana 3855 BR
2019 F350 6.7 4X4 DRW
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