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Old 01-16-2018, 08:19 AM   #21
JRTJH
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Many of the XLite and SuperLite fifth wheels in the 30-34' range use the same frame. Keystone cuts off the rear of the frame for shorter models. Essentially what this does is move the axles toward the rear (not physically, rather by the rear being closer to the axles). This typically increases the pin weight by having less bulk behind the axles to "lever" the pin weight.

Another "pitfall" for the current model "lites" is the added equipment. My 31' 2014 Cougar XLite weighs 7136 with a cargo capacity of 2864. That's almost 3,000 pounds of cargo capacity. Three times the current payload of some "lites".

If you add 350 pounds of automatic leveling system, 100 pounds of sliding rear bike rack, 150 pounds of 12 cuft refrigerator (replacing a 6 or 8 cuft) opposing slides, larger holding tanks, two or three TV's, outdoor kitchens and that's just a start..... All of those "nice to have options" add weight to the trailer and significantly reduce cargo capacity.

Which way (max cargo or max options) is the way to go? We're at a decision point as consumers. Buy a trailer with lots of conveniences and critically limited cargo capacity or buy a trailer with less "fluff" and more cargo capability?

It looks to me, that Keystone is moving toward "fluff" in some brands and definitely to larger trailers. There is no "full height, side bed slide" fifth wheel left in the Keystone inventory that's shorter than 34'. Cougar, the mainstay fifth wheel in Keystone's line, is eliminating all their fifth wheels shorter than 35'. Last year every model introduced by Cougar was 37' or longer. So, it seems that Keystone is making the decisions for us. If you want a "full size fifth wheel with a side bed slide" you're going to have to buy a 1 ton truck to tow it. You can "compromise" with a lite or superlite and use a 3/4 ton truck and, for the most part, "half ton towing" is a farce for any "off the shelf" half ton truck from any of the top 4. Ford does have a "HD half ton" with a 2600 lb payload, but that's a special order on any dealer's lot. That's a specialty vehicle that just isn't available to the buyer that's kicking tires.....

Maybe I'm wrong, but I see an industry that is "upsizing" their products and during the transition, we're going to see quite a few "newbies" and "unaware buyers" that get burned with the current hype about "smaller vehicle towing" while the trailers "grow longer and heavier" with less cargo capacity.

As long as the economy keeps improving and job availability keeps growing, the "feel good economy" will keep people buying bigger and better. When will we reach that "ceiling" where we stop buying bigger trucks and bigger trailers? Who knows. It looks like Keystone is betting it won't be in the near future. Same with all of THOR and FR/Winnebago as well.
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Old 01-16-2018, 09:09 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
Many of the XLite and SuperLite fifth wheels in the 30-34' range use the same frame. Keystone cuts off the rear of the frame for shorter models. Essentially what this does is move the axles toward the rear (not physically, rather by the rear being closer to the axles). This typically increases the pin weight by having less bulk behind the axles to "lever" the pin weight.

Another "pitfall" for the current model "lites" is the added equipment. My 31' 2014 Cougar XLite weighs 7136 with a cargo capacity of 2864. That's almost 3,000 pounds of cargo capacity. Three times the current payload of some "lites".

If you add 350 pounds of automatic leveling system, 100 pounds of sliding rear bike rack, 150 pounds of 12 cuft refrigerator (replacing a 6 or 8 cuft) opposing slides, larger holding tanks, two or three TV's, outdoor kitchens and that's just a start..... All of those "nice to have options" add weight to the trailer and significantly reduce cargo capacity.

Which way (max cargo or max options) is the way to go? We're at a decision point as consumers. Buy a trailer with lots of conveniences and critically limited cargo capacity or buy a trailer with less "fluff" and more cargo capability?

It looks to me, that Keystone is moving toward "fluff" in some brands and definitely to larger trailers. There is no "full height, side bed slide" fifth wheel left in the Keystone inventory that's shorter than 34'. Cougar, the mainstay fifth wheel in Keystone's line, is eliminating all their fifth wheels shorter than 35'. Last year every model introduced by Cougar was 37' or longer. So, it seems that Keystone is making the decisions for us. If you want a "full size fifth wheel with a side bed slide" you're going to have to buy a 1 ton truck to tow it. You can "compromise" with a lite or superlite and use a 3/4 ton truck and, for the most part, "half ton towing" is a farce for any "off the shelf" half ton truck from any of the top 4. Ford does have a "HD half ton" with a 2600 lb payload, but that's a special order on any dealer's lot. That's a specialty vehicle that just isn't available to the buyer that's kicking tires.....

Maybe I'm wrong, but I see an industry that is "upsizing" their products and during the transition, we're going to see quite a few "newbies" and "unaware buyers" that get burned with the current hype about "smaller vehicle towing" while the trailers "grow longer and heavier" with less cargo capacity.

As long as the economy keeps improving and job availability keeps growing, the "feel good economy" will keep people buying bigger and better. When will we reach that "ceiling" where we stop buying bigger trucks and bigger trailers? Who knows. It looks like Keystone is betting it won't be in the near future. Same with all of THOR and FR/Winnebago as well.

I don't know if it's me but it "feels" like we may be getting near the limit on lengths of trailers. Our TT is almost 37'. We stay at lots of improved rv parks and many get pretty short with that length of trailer. Lots of them seem to have been built not expecting to have 40'+ units in the sites. Some seem limited simply by the placement of their utilities. Most of those can be overcome by using extended water, sewer and power lines but it's still a pain and illustrates, to me, that they weren't thinking of longer trailers when laying out the sites. A place may say "65' pull thru sites" but when you get there you find that it's almost impossible to use the site without the truck or trailer extending into the road(s).

Another aspect of growing trailer sizes is also the growing truck size required to pull it. Although some, if not many, folks just go ahead and pull with "whatever" most will try to get the proper sized truck. With a one ton truck being the minimum to carry many of these upper sized trailers, if not a dually, for me and I assume others, the cost/benefit of making that kind of investment for just kicking around comes into play. With trucks hitting the 80k range and a trailer hitting the 100k range, I think we are going to see folks trying to either downsize or at least limit the sizes of what they get/money they spend. Of course there are always some that will buy the biggest and baddest because but I do think for the majority we may be hitting the limit. Decades ago a 25 footer was considered a pretty good size trailer....and no slides. We have come a long way.
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Old 01-16-2018, 06:32 PM   #23
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Well not sure if any states have a max length of trailer, but our Ram Quad cab Long bed is 16’ from front bumper to the hitch pin location. This means at 65’ max combined length we could pull a 49’ 5er !! While no way could I carry it, then a 3500 CC LB, would add about another 18” so 47.5’ that is a lot of
5er.
Then the is the issue of total sq. ft. of floor area, I believe it is less than 400 sq. ft. so that may reduce the total length based on the number and size of slides.
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Old 01-17-2018, 01:40 AM   #24
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While the custom cargo trailer manufacturers building 53 foot custom 5ver's at a dime a dozen, there is a limit to how many custom 5th wheel RV manufacturers will build a 57 foot behemoth.
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Old 01-17-2018, 06:07 AM   #25
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While the custom cargo trailer manufacturers building 53 foot custom 5ver's at a dime a dozen, there is a limit to how many custom 5th wheel RV manufacturers will build a 57 foot behemoth.
Just the thing for a weekend of fly fishing. Might have to put bags on my Ford.

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Old 01-17-2018, 07:03 AM   #26
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Most of Space Craft's business is the circus/carnival industry. They build "homes on wheels" for people who travel for a living and don't want to spend 9 months in a "tin box". Most of the "luxury models" are sold to the carnival owners, who live in their 5 bedroom home in Florida when not on the road. The "utility models" also the same 53' length, make up 6 or 7 "bedroom units" with 2 bunks and 2 dressers in each compartment. Almost all of this type "RV" are pulled by 5 ton tractors (or bigger), not a typical tow vehicle we'd buy for our "full time unit"......
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Old 01-17-2018, 11:22 AM   #27
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O.M.G! A marble shower. I feel so unworthy.
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Old 01-17-2018, 11:58 AM   #28
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While the custom cargo trailer manufacturers building 53 foot custom 5ver's at a dime a dozen, there is a limit to how many custom 5th wheel RV manufacturers will build a 57 foot behemoth.
I should be totally good pulling with my f150 with airbags right?
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Old 01-17-2018, 04:05 PM   #29
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All good.

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Old 01-17-2018, 09:27 PM   #30
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Ouch! That is cray low CCC given the size of the trailer. My 2013 passport 23RB is in tandem 4400# axles and I have a CCC of 2240 in a 23' unit.

Keystone must get a good price on the 4400# axle as it shows up on a lot of units.

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Old 01-18-2018, 12:41 AM   #31
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Ouch! That is cray low CCC given the size of the trailer. My 2013 passport 23RB is in tandem 4400# axles and I have a CCC of 2240 in a 23' unit.

Keystone must get a good price on the 4400# axle as it shows up on a lot of units.

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I assume that you are referring to the 1,090# CCC of the Laredo 298SRL. That 5er is 34’ 6” long, one would need to pack lite to avoid exceeding the GVWR, and more importantly the axle and possibly tire rating on this unit.
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Old 01-18-2018, 02:52 PM   #32
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A quote from a NHTSA Q&A PDF.

"The FMVSS have requirements for the manufacturer to use proper tires and rims for the gross axle weight rating (GAWR) and the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR). The manufacturer may determine the GVWR by adding cargo capacity (if any) to the curb weight of the vehicle as manufactured. The wise consumer, before purchase, will determine if the vehicle has sufficient cargo capacity to carry the weight of water, additional equipment (such as televisions, and microwave ovens), and luggage. The manufacturer’s certification label must show the GVWR. The GVWR must not be exceeded by overloading the vehicle. There is little the government can do to assist a consumer who has purchased a vehicle that has insufficient cargo capacity for its intended use."
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Old 01-18-2018, 07:53 PM   #33
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A quote from a NHTSA Q&A PDF.

"The FMVSS have requirements for the manufacturer to use proper tires and rims for the gross axle weight rating (GAWR) and the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR). The manufacturer may determine the GVWR by adding cargo capacity (if any) to the curb weight of the vehicle as manufactured. The wise consumer, before purchase, will determine if the vehicle has sufficient cargo capacity to carry the weight of water, additional equipment (such as televisions, and microwave ovens), and luggage. The manufacturer’s certification label must show the GVWR. The GVWR must not be exceeded by overloading the vehicle. There is little the government can do to assist a consumer who has purchased a vehicle that has insufficient cargo capacity for its intended use."
I also feel it is responsibility of manufacture to provide a trailer with enough CCC to cover the intended use!
Manufacturing/offering for sale a 34’ 5th wheel with a 1,090# CCC is ridiculous!! That is inviting the end user to be over weight.
The same can be said for several of the Heartland Cyclone TH, the Y3600 has a CCC of 2,100# for a 39’ TH, once again very easy to exceed the GVWR, using it as intended!
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Old 01-18-2018, 08:29 PM   #34
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[QUOTE=rhagfo;270060]I also feel it is responsibility of manufacture to provide a trailer with enough CCC to cover the intended use!
Manufacturing/offering for sale a 34’ 5th wheel with a 1,090# CCC is ridiculous!! That is inviting the end user to be over weight.
The same can be said for several of the Heartland Cyclone TH, the Y3600 has a CCC of 2,100# for a 39’ TH, once again very easy to exceed the GVWR, using it as intended![/QUOTEat


I disagree. The manufacturers of RVs, and most any other thing, put things out there that just don't make sense, or work. It is absolutely up to the end purchaser to know what they are buying and what works or doesn't. The numbers for any RV are posted on the RV, the internet etc. It is up to the end user to be smart enough to figure out what's what and how they are going to use the trailer....not the manufacturer. The days of shifting responsibility to "someone else" due to your own ignorance, lack of due diligence or failure to just take care should be over.
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Old 01-19-2018, 05:48 AM   #35
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[QUOTE=sourdough;270063]
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhagfo View Post
I also feel it is responsibility of manufacture to provide a trailer with enough CCC to cover the intended use!
Manufacturing/offering for sale a 34’ 5th wheel with a 1,090# CCC is ridiculous!! That is inviting the end user to be over weight.
The same can be said for several of the Heartland Cyclone TH, the Y3600 has a CCC of 2,100# for a 39’ TH, once again very easy to exceed the GVWR, using it as intended![/QUOTEat


I disagree. The manufacturers of RVs, and most any other thing, put things out there that just don't make sense, or work. It is absolutely up to the end purchaser to know what they are buying and what works or doesn't. The numbers for any RV are posted on the RV, the internet etc. It is up to the end user to be smart enough to figure out what's what and how they are going to use the trailer....not the manufacturer. The days of shifting responsibility to "someone else" due to your own ignorance, lack of due diligence or failure to just take care should be over.
While I agree the the end user is responsible for staying under tire, axle, and GVWR it is also the responsibility of the manufacture to create a unit that has a reasonable CCC.
The listed CCC on our 32’ Copper Canyon is 2,106# and that is with a FULL FW tank (374#) and propane (60#). To me this is a reasonable CCC for a 32’ 5th wheel.
Then there is the 2015 333MKS, with a CCC of 1,760# at nearly 37’ while within reason, is still a little snug for that length. Not sure if that CCC is above and beyond propane, and FW tank.
The scary part is I doubt many buyers look at the payload sticker on their units before buying. I know I have gotten strange looks from salespersons at RV shows when I duck under the nose to go look at the payload sticker.
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Old 01-19-2018, 07:20 AM   #36
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"Intended use" and "reasonable" are so subjective. Ultimately the buyer needs to operate within the guidelines set forth by the mfg. If the buyer cannot do that, then the buyer needs to continue searching or not purchase. Don't blame the mfg if the user cannot operate within the guidelines.
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Old 01-19-2018, 01:46 PM   #37
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I have that model and my ccc sticker is 1340. My scaled weight was 9580. Thats full propane and two batteries. Some fresh water and camping gear. At 20% pin thats 1916 in my truck and it has ccc of 2189. My total weight was 17540. This is not a good combo
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Old 01-19-2018, 02:07 PM   #38
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I have that model and my ccc sticker is 1340. My scaled weight was 9580. Thats full propane and two batteries. Some fresh water and camping gear. At 20% pin thats 1916 in my truck and it has ccc of 2189. My total weight was 17540. This is not a good combo
Why not you appear to be under GVWR by my math, you are at 9,976 on the TV, 1,916 on the pin and 7,664 on the trailer axles.
Does it tow ok, I see bags and an F250, so likely fighting sag from soft springs.

What other issues?
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Old 01-19-2018, 02:09 PM   #39
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Maybe I'm wrong, but I see an industry that is "upsizing" their products and during the transition, we're going to see quite a few "newbies" and "unaware buyers" that get burned with the current hype about "smaller vehicle towing" while the trailers "grow longer and heavier" with less cargo capacity.
This totally reminded me of some people we camped next to in Missoula a couple of years ago. It was a 38' Cedar Creek fifth wheel towed by a F-150 - with Minnesota plates on both. I'm still wondering how fun Homestake pass by Butte was for them...
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Old 01-19-2018, 02:20 PM   #40
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Why not you appear to be under GVWR by my math, you are at 9,976 on the TV, 1,916 on the pin and 7,664 on the trailer axles.
Does it tow ok, I see bags and an F250, so likely fighting sag from soft springs.

What other issues?
It feels so comfortable and it tows great, even better than the previous tow behind. Which is when I added bags. The bags sure do help with the ride I understand they don't do anything for weight. Its really the numbers that are concerning to me and I didn't understand any of this weight rating stuff. I'm really close to overloading even on a three day weekend. However I'm learning and appreciate this forum.
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