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Old 12-11-2017, 06:30 PM   #1
sourdough
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LED lights - problem

Just a heads up.

Changed all the lights out to led (about 40) 2 years ago. I had previously changed them to led that were 12v only. I had numerous problems with them so changed them all to the 12-28v leds. So much better and so much more dependable.....until this evening. We were sitting here watching tv the lights started flickering, one side of one fixture went out and then the smell of smoked electronics.

One side of one fixture just smoked....blacked out. It was a 3528 led . Blacked out the back of the fixture, burned plumb up, smelled up the trailer. Cleaned it all up and put in a new led....working great. Just giving a heads up; I have a lot of faith in leds but you need to be aware that they can go "poof" - many change to them; many newbies. Just something to be aware of. Keep some spares in the shelf somewhere.
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Old 12-11-2017, 10:14 PM   #2
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Aren't the 3528 LEDs light strips? I find cheap LEDs burn out just as fast an incandescent bulbs. When I want bright white light I use car backup lights--one two-light fixture can produce 2,000 lumens.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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Old 12-12-2017, 05:24 AM   #3
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.

The Product Dimensions show as 5.1 x 4.4 x 1 inches.

Is that really how large these are, 5.1 " ?

.
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Old 12-12-2017, 06:14 AM   #4
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Third Amazon photo shows a length of 1.58” long X .55” wide.
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Old 12-12-2017, 08:11 AM   #5
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The number on the box is GRV T10 921 194 24-3528 - AC/DC 12v-28v pack of 10. I bought 40 of these that were 12v only and had multiple issues right away. Bought the 12/28v bulbs and they have been OK. I had one lose some LEDs a couple of weeks ago and replaced it and then this one. Still, these are light years better than the OEM incandescent which burned the bases, were power hogs and put out lots of heat. I also installed larger (brighter) LEDs over the island, kitchen and counters. They are the same number with the exception of being 5050S instead of 3528. I have had no issues with them.

Note: these are all round multi LED bulbs
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Old 12-12-2017, 08:14 AM   #6
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LED technology is advancing at rapid rates. LED's that were "state of the art" in both power use and light production (lumens) just a couple of years ago are currently "old, wasteful and dim". All of the LED's that I bought 6 years ago, many of which are still in use in my Cougar, are being replaced as new technology LED's come on the market. They are 12 volt (back then, 12/24 volt LED's weren't even available).

LED sizing is typically used to refer to the LED. In other words, a 3528 LED is 3.5mm x 2.8mm and a 5050 LED is 5.0x5.0 mm in size. It goes with reason that the larger an LED the more light it will produce, so 5050 LED's are brighter than 3528 LED's. With the advancements in technology, even that is being "outdated by evolution of LED's"......

As for the availability of LED's, the market follows what is called "Haitz' Law" which essentially states that the technology will outdate itself every 36 months and today's best technology will be available as "base technologoy" in 18 months. http://www.electronicdesign.com/comp...y-and-practice

So, those LED's you bought 4 or 5 years ago may not be "getting dim" rather they may be "outclassed" by the new one you installed in the bedroom.

As for the "voltage regulated" LED's, (the ones listed as 12/24 VDC) they have a very complex, miniaturized circuit (IC) on the chip that is a voltage regulator/voltage limiter circuit. It converts the changing input voltage to a constant output voltage. This protects the actual LED chip making it much more reliable. (along with the advancement, that voltage regulator brings with it the possibility to cause TV reception interference) so not every advancement is without added problems. This is about where the current technology for RV's is positioned.

Be assured that even though LED"s are advertised to last 20,000 hours, the technology will outdate that LED assembly in the next 18-36 months, making it obsolete and even "antiquated"... Sort of like many of us who are in the retirement age group......
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Old 12-12-2017, 08:34 AM   #7
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Danny,

The LED's you bought, GRV T10 921 194 24-3528 - AC/DC 12v-28v pack of 10 "break down" as follows:

GRV is the manufacturer/distributor
T10 is the base style which supports the old nomenclature 921/194 incandescent base style
24 is the number of LED's on the assembly
3528 is the size of each LED
AC/DC 12v-28v is the acceptable input voltage that can be used to power the assembly
and they come in a package of 10 assemblies.

There are a number of brands of LED's GRV, GRB, ASIN, B00EDFM along with the incandescent bulb companies like Sylvania, OSRAM, GE, Phillips, etc.

Often (not always) the "name brand companies" like Sylvania, etc, if you take apart their LED assemblies, somewhere on it you'll find GRV or GRB or ASIN stamped on the actual LED board. So, even though a number of companies market "expensive and better LED" technology, typically they are just "rebranded current technology" from the basic Chinese manufacturers.

Most of the RV parts store brands like SuperBrite and CW brand are actually built by GRV and packaged either by GRV for CW or shipped to the US and repackaged by an American company with their name on the package. Unfortunately, there's not much difference in LED from brand to brand. Typically what you find on EBay or Amazon is the 18 month old technology and what you find in CW or from SuperBrite, etc, is closer to "the latest technology"... Otherwise, an LED is an LED..... Whether you pay $10 or $1 for it, there isn't much difference if it's the 18 month old technology. Where you can "pay for better" is by buying current technology, but even then, paying $10 for it, you'll still wind up with "old stuff" in a year or so......
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Old 12-12-2017, 01:16 PM   #8
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My factory LEDs (I'm referring to the assembly, not the light emitting diode) died within 3 months - a total of 20 of them. Ended up tracking it down to the manufacturer who said, "yea, we had a bad batch" and shipped me 20.

Most of this stuff is made overseas. There's a technology side and then there is a reliability-of-components and assembly process side. I'll continue to use LED, but yea, they don't last forever..
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Old 12-12-2017, 02:03 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcg9381 View Post
...Most of this stuff is made overseas. There's a technology side and then there is a reliability-of-components and assembly process side. I'll continue to use LED, but yea, they don't last forever..
The sad part, at least for most of us, is that we don't have any reliable way to avoid the "Chinese crap" and find the reliable components. It's for certain that price isn't any assurance. I've seen $15 LED's fail just as fast as the $1 ones.

Like you, I think that LED's are better than incandescent bulbs, even the "cheap, unreliable ones".....
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Old 12-12-2017, 02:38 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
The sad part, at least for most of us, is that we don't have any reliable way to avoid the "Chinese crap" and find the reliable components.
Consumer reviews are a place to start (Amazon). Then again, even those can be faked (you need to watch the patterns). A good source to "filter" fake Amazon reviews is: https://www.fakespot.com/ - this fake review spotting became necessary in the last few years unfortunately. Still, better than nothing. And there is some consumer recourse if you're sold absolute crap that fails within a month or so of shipping... But you can't get your time and effort back.

The reality is that the vast majority of electronics manufacturing is done overseas. China CAN build some good stuff, but (IMHO) they tend to produce for bottom dollar unless otherwise directly specified (and double checked) in regard to components and assembly...
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Old 12-20-2017, 02:41 PM   #11
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LED Update

Came in yesterday afternoon and could smell burnt electronics again. Looked around and found another LED bulb smoked. Replaced but THIS time I paid attention.

Upon inspection the smoked LED was the old 12v only bulb. After looking at it and thinking about it, the original bulb was 12v only as well. How did that happen after changing everything to 12-12v? Well.......

I went to get a new bulb to put in and picked up the open box of bulbs on the top. Pulled out the pack and pulled one out....a 12v bulb. What? Looked at all the rest in the box and all were 12v only! After trying to kick start my brain for a bit I remembered that I had taken the last 10 working 12v bulbs and put them in a box when I removed them. I didn't throw them away. Instead of paying attention, when I had a couple of the new ones flicker I just popped one of the bulbs out and put it in precipitating these smoking bulbs. That box is now in the trash and I have only 12-28v bulbs. Not particularly keen on showing off my stupidity but wanted to give an update.

Edit; meant to say 12/28vdc
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Old 12-20-2017, 03:53 PM   #12
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That's good info sourdough. With a lot of campgrounds having uneven power a 12v only bulb does not last.

JRTJH John recommended these "Grv T10 921 194 24-3528 SMD LED Bulb lamp Super Bright Warm White AC/DC 12V -28V Pack of 10". Look good, easy instal and no issues with transient voltage.
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Old 12-20-2017, 04:08 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by 66joej View Post
That's good info sourdough. With a lot of campgrounds having uneven power a 12v only bulb does not last.
The issue isn't the campground power, although that could cause some converter problems if it gets too high or too low. Rather the problem comes from the WFCO (or Progressive) converter. When you first plug the trailer into shore power, the converter comes on at 14.4 VDC (bulk mode) and stays in that mode for about 2 hours, then the converter reduces voltage to 13.6 VDC (absorption mode) and stays there until the battery reaches about 90% charge, then the converter reduces the voltage again to 13.2 VDC (float mode) which acts as a "trickle charger" to top the battery off without causing excessive electrolyte loss.

So, when you plug in the "older/cheaper" 12VDC LED lights, they are being "overdriven" or "super heated" any time that you're on "converter power". Typically, the converter provides 13.6VDC to the appliances and all the electrical systems in the trailer. So, that's the reason you need the 12-28VDC LED assemblies. There is a voltage regulator on the circuit board that the LED's are mounted on that converts any input voltage to 12VDC (some newer LED's operate on 3.5 or 5 VDC) to prevent overpowering the electronics contained on the circuit board.

If you were operating them on a "low voltage landscape DC system" that transformer produces a steady 12VDC and the older chips would work, but they don't do well in the variable voltage produced by an RV converter.
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Old 12-20-2017, 04:58 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 66joej View Post
That's good info sourdough. With a lot of campgrounds having uneven power a 12v only bulb does not last.

JRTJH John recommended these "Grv T10 921 194 24-3528 SMD LED Bulb lamp Super Bright Warm White AC/DC 12V -28V Pack of 10". Look good, easy instal and no issues with transient voltage.

Correct. I believe that is what I put in and have zero complaints. I would recommend however the 5050 bulbs for areas where you need more light. I put them over the island, kitchen counters and reading areas.
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