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Old 09-12-2019, 11:36 AM   #21
sourdough
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Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
itat hit on a topic that seems to have "flown over the head" of most RV shoppers.

Manufacturers build several "different conceptual trailers" to meet the demand of different consumers. Some want a BIG trailer and have a "Yugo" to pull it with... Some want a CHEAP trailer and don't want to pay more than $xx for it, Some want a trailer that "looks like it's well built" with all the "bling" but refuse to buy a "luxury trailer"....

So, to meet those varied demands, Keystone, Forest River, Jayco and many smaller "one or two line" manufacturers build a variety of trailer concepts....

Note the "trailer concepts" is bolded... That's the "key" to shopping for an RV. Far too many buyers have simply "FAILED MISERABLY" at comprehending the concept. If you buy a 34', 4200 pound trailer, you WILL NOT get solid floors, thick insulation, heavy carpet, thick, comfortable mattresses or huge FW, black and gray storage tanks. Don't expect 30 pound propane tanks and heavy "solid oak cabinets".... Ain't gonna happen....

To complain about "my trailer is built cheaply, has a thin floor and the shelves are stapled in place" when you buy a lightweight trailer, designed to be pulled by a lightweight tow vehicle.... Well, you simply can't market to owners of those vehicles by only providing the market with a 11,000 pound 30' trailer...

In my "previous career" I can't tell you how many people came into my office complaining that their "blood sugar was too high" and also complaining "diet food doesn't taste good".... They buy "high sugar foods" and expect the same results as you'd get from eating sugar free alternatives......

Same with travel trailers: You simply won't find the durability, construction, materials, comfort or appearance in a $15,000/4000 pound ultra-lite trailer that you'll find in a $60,000/12,000 pound "full time unit".

Adding solar to a cheap, light weight trailer won't improve livability, it'll only allow you to burn the lights longer into the night while you're fixing the things that weren't designed for full time use.

^^^^^And herein lies the answer to so many questions and complaints about a person's RV. They all ARE NOT built the same (materials) and as the OP has shown with pics, some have extremely light materials put together in the quickest way that the installer could find.

I've bought entry level trailers because of some of the reasons John lists. I always figured that there would be issues whether it's little cheap plastic corner protectors that are falling off, cheap hinges/slides/shelves etc. It's done for a reason - weight/cost. Many times I did not have the money to try to get a "top" line RV.

Today when I go to a dealership and look for a bumper pull I tell them I want to look at the best, biggest and most luxurious units they have; that in itself can be pretty enlightening when looking at what they think is "top of the line" and then seeing what's in them after looking at dozens from various manufacturers. Even if/when I buy one of the "top" units I know without a doubt something will fail, but I do like heavier woodwork, glides/hinges and all the other things that come with that. When looking at a 5th wheel I do not dictate that criteria because the nicest ones are just too heavy for the kind of truck I am willing to drive so you compromise by getting the best made unit you can that fits within the weights you can safely carry. And, I know without a doubt that something will fail on them as well. It's just the nature of the beast. The two best things an RV owner can do is 1) make sure you got a good dealer and 2) make sure you can fix things. This is addition to the assumption that you picked the floorplan that will work for you.
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Old 09-13-2019, 12:35 AM   #22
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I have the same camper but a 2018. My shelves are mounted on top of the braces, however there was no access to my water heater by-pass valve. I had to cut an access hole to winterize the unit. All in all very few issues on this one, but is does seem to be a crapshoot on quality when you by new. This is not my first bullet, and I know they are a light weight/economy trailer. I added a porcelain toilet, central vacuum and a few other things we like. Outside upgraded tires and rims, shocks, and Moride greaseable shackles. The total was about $1000 for everything but I saved a lot on the camper so it was well worth it, and we have some of the bells and whistles we like.
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Old 09-13-2019, 02:33 AM   #23
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Comparing the quality of trailers, the one feature that tells me I am in a top of the line rig.... the blue lights all over the inside. CLASS!

Anybody remember: ATTENTION KMART SHOPPERS, the blue light special is on aisle 7?
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Old 09-13-2019, 02:48 PM   #24
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Comparing the quality of trailers, the one feature that tells me I am in a top of the line rig.... the blue lights all over the inside. CLASS!

Anybody remember: ATTENTION KMART SHOPPERS, the blue light special is on aisle 7?
And before you know it those "blue" lights wil be as dated as an avocado 🥑 color appliance!
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Old 09-13-2019, 03:17 PM   #25
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and to think I switched out all the blue LEDs for warm white ones.
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Old 09-14-2019, 07:11 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
itat hit on a topic that seems to have "flown over the head" of most RV shoppers.

Manufacturers build several "different conceptual trailers" to meet the demand of different consumers. Some want a BIG trailer and have a "Yugo" to pull it with... Some want a CHEAP trailer and don't want to pay more than $xx for it, Some want a trailer that "looks like it's well built" with all the "bling" but refuse to buy a "luxury trailer"....

So, to meet those varied demands, Keystone, Forest River, Jayco and many smaller "one or two line" manufacturers build a variety of trailer concepts....

Note the "trailer concepts" is bolded... That's the "key" to shopping for an RV. Far too many buyers have simply "FAILED MISERABLY" at comprehending the concept. If you buy a 34', 4200 pound trailer, you WILL NOT get solid floors, thick insulation, heavy carpet, thick, comfortable mattresses or huge FW, black and gray storage tanks. Don't expect 30 pound propane tanks and heavy "solid oak cabinets".... Ain't gonna happen....

To complain about "my trailer is built cheaply, has a thin floor and the shelves are stapled in place" when you buy a lightweight trailer, designed to be pulled by a lightweight tow vehicle.... Well, you simply can't market to owners of those vehicles by only providing the market with a 11,000 pound 30' trailer...

In my "previous career" I can't tell you how many people came into my office complaining that their "blood sugar was too high" and also complaining "diet food doesn't taste good".... They buy "high sugar foods" and expect the same results as you'd get from eating sugar free alternatives......

Same with travel trailers: You simply won't find the durability, construction, materials, comfort or appearance in a $15,000/4000 pound ultra-lite trailer that you'll find in a $60,000/12,000 pound "full time unit".

Adding solar to a cheap, light weight trailer won't improve livability, it'll only allow you to burn the lights longer into the night while you're fixing the things that weren't designed for full time use.
You hit upon the main point here, I believe. Everything is a compromise, and each of us has the privilege of living with the outcomes arising from our choices. That said, it's incumbent on us to do our research BEFORE we buy, and if we don't know much about RVs, then doubly so. I'd suspected the ultra light weight ones had to sacrifice something in durability.

I recall talking with a gentleman a number of years back, who traveled with a little bitty thing called a "Scamp." Better yet, he pulled it with some little car like a Ford Escort or something equally impractical. He told me he paid for his fuel savings with engines and transmissions. I thought it ridiculous, but his choice. A friend of mine who had a 40 foot 5er in the 90s, when physical therapists and occupational therapists often lived in RVs to follow work around, based on some federal reimbursement process that was changed around 1999, (causing a market glut of suddenly available RVs), paid for using an 80s era 3/4 ton 4 speed Ford with numerous clutches and transmissions. I did like that full floating 3rd member, seems the Fords had especially stout ones back then.

The young Primate and I are headed to a hot rod show downtown in a few. Should be fun. Have a great day out there!!!
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Old 09-14-2019, 08:49 AM   #27
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Wish in one hand ......

I've seen a few episodes of "Going RV" on GAC. I get amused at the folks that want a 3 bedroom, 2 bath, outside kitchen, a playroom for the kids, a dish washer, washer and dryer, central vac, 120 gallon fresh water tank, 200 gal gray and blank tanks,batteries that will run the air conditioning while off the grid for a month, solid cherry cabinets throughout and enough storage to hold everything that their 2 car garage at home can hold.
The unit must be under 25' overall length so it will fit in state parks, andbe compact car towable. And a single axle so they don't have to pay extra tolls.
Price? Under $15K of course!
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Old 09-16-2019, 04:54 PM   #28
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And yet...we buy them any way as fast as they make them. Why? Because a bad day camping is better than the best day working.
After fighting poor quality issues with my 3 previous trailers, I bought a brand new high-end Triple slide TT (not Keystone). After owning it for 3 years, paying out about $4,000 in out of warranty repairs, plus whatever it cost me to pull to the factory 3 times, I sold it back to my dealer. I had returning delaminization, a soft spot in the floor (even though there was no evidence of water damage), and a stuck black water valve. Bottom line is RV quality is poor. I keep hoping Toyota or Honda will get in the game and give the RV industry the same lessons they gave the big 3 car guys.

So I asked my self, why do I do this ? And my answer is the same as ctbruce
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Old 09-16-2019, 07:55 PM   #29
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After fighting poor quality issues with my 3 previous trailers, I bought a brand new high-end Triple slide TT (not Keystone). After owning it for 3 years, paying out about $4,000 in out of warranty repairs, plus whatever it cost me to pull to the factory 3 times, I sold it back to my dealer. I had returning delaminization, a soft spot in the floor (even though there was no evidence of water damage), and a stuck black water valve. Bottom line is RV quality is poor. I keep hoping Toyota or Honda will get in the game and give the RV industry the same lessons they gave the big 3 car guys.

So I asked my self, why do I do this ? And my answer is the same as ctbruce
Having owned several Toyotas I can only say that they "had" an edge on drivetrain quality...had. No longer. Pricing? They are priced above what a comparable Big 3 vehicle would cost. Electronics? Unless you move to a Lexus the Big 3 electronics left Toyota behind a decade ago. How do I know? I've owned Toyota 4Runners since 2010. Can't start to compete with my Rams and Uconnect. The upside is the resale on a Toyota which is much better than a comparable Big 3....maybe. But then again, the upfront purchase price offsets that. In the end, at this point in time, Toyota/Honda do not have a leg up as they used to. Just look at the JD Powers quality surveys...they are both falling, quickly the last I saw.
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Old 09-16-2019, 08:05 PM   #30
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Having owned several Toyotas I can only say that they "had" an edge on drivetrain quality...had. No longer. Pricing? They are priced above what a comparable Big 3 vehicle would cost. Electronics? Unless you move to a Lexus the Big 3 electronics left Toyota behind a decade ago. How do I know? I've owned Toyota 4Runners since 2010. Can't start to compete with my Rams and Uconnect. The upside is the resale on a Toyota which is much better than a comparable Big 3....maybe. But then again, the upfront purchase price offsets that. In the end, at this point in time, Toyota/Honda do not have a leg up as they used to. Just look at the JD Powers quality surveys...they are both falling, quickly the last I saw.
The reason the big 3 have the world class quality they do today is because they got their backsides kicked by some guys from across the pond in 1980 something. My point is - I would love to see the same happen in the RV industry.
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Old 09-16-2019, 08:32 PM   #31
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I would love to see it too but don't see a "Toyota/Honda" RV maker out there. They all see how well the current model works for the "big boys" (poor quality/high profits) and follow that path. Good for them, bad for the consumer.
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Old 09-16-2019, 08:34 PM   #32
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My previous RV was made by a craftsmanlike manufacturer. I got 20 years of nearly trouble-free service from it. My current RV would have been the same brand, had they not been eaten and digested by Winnie earlier this decade.
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Old 09-16-2019, 09:58 PM   #33
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I bought my 1st in 1976, a used TT. Since then I have owned several TTs and 5ers with a class a tossed in, all new units. My current and 2 previous Montanas have been problem free. The Cougar before those had 1 warranty item, furnace fixed in a day. Never considered entry level of anything. I feel money was saved by not having things to fix or upgrade in the long run. Want to go cheap without problems, just buy a tent. I stay about in the middle of the range.
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Old 09-17-2019, 05:21 AM   #34
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Another example--the trailer hitch receiver on the back of my 2019 Cougar 315RLS. It is a 2 inch receiver. This is the standard size for a class 3 hitch. If you look for an RV approved bike rack most have a requirement of a class 3 receiver. All is good--right? Nope--the hitch is only good for 300# tongue weight. A class 3 is rated at 800# TW. This is no where in the documentation. Only after several calls to customer service did I find out about the limit. Now the question is do you put a rack that requires a class 3 receiver into a receiver that is way under designed?
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Old 09-17-2019, 04:27 PM   #35
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I would love to see it too but don't see a "Toyota/Honda" RV maker out there. They all see how well the current model works for the "big boys" (poor quality/high profits) and follow that path. Good for them, bad for the consumer.
Unfortunately - I think you are right.
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Old 09-19-2019, 06:42 AM   #36
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Another example--the trailer hitch receiver on the back of my 2019 Cougar 315RLS. It is a 2 inch receiver. This is the standard size for a class 3 hitch. If you look for an RV approved bike rack most have a requirement of a class 3 receiver. All is good--right? Nope--the hitch is only good for 300# tongue weight. A class 3 is rated at 800# TW. This is no where in the documentation. Only after several calls to customer service did I find out about the limit. Now the question is do you put a rack that requires a class 3 receiver into a receiver that is way under designed?
I would take the rig to a good qualified welding shop and ask them for an opinion on beefing up the hitch mounting to the main frame. They "may" be able to add the additional reinforcements necessary to give you piece of mind for your back bike rack.

Good luck.
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Old 09-19-2019, 07:07 AM   #37
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Whats really disturbing is that the guy doing these things either has know clue about common sense building practices are or he just doesn't care.
Or he just doesn't have time to care because they've only got 4 hours to pump out a trailer so they can go home early.

Or all of the above.
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Old 09-19-2019, 07:57 AM   #38
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to get something done with Keystone, I used 2 choices: first, send a private msg to Keystone on FB. You tell them the problem and that if you don't hear from them in x amount of time you will make the private msg public. Second, you write up all the complaints to a RV mag. like RV Life and get them to publicly shame Keystone into responding. Good luck. It worked for me in half the cases. Kirk
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Old 09-19-2019, 08:10 AM   #39
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We've run into a few things with our new Passport too, but all those things can be contributed to weight savings. Light weight can be cheesy and cheap.

The one that made me realize that was when I installed gas struts on the bed, I found out that the bed base was made exactly like an interior hollow core door. Two pieces of 1/4" paneling sandwiching a frame. The screws pulled right out! I had to line the bed frame and base with 5/8" plywood to make the struts work. I figure I added at least 50 pounds to the trailer.
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Old 09-19-2019, 08:18 AM   #40
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I own my sixth RV, my first 5th wheel. My TTs ranged from an 18 1/2 foot no frills to a 2017 30RLI Cougar. When we bought the Cougar we that we had purchased a better trailer than than our trade. Nope. Over time the walls in the under bed storage came loose (tiny little staples holding the walls to the frame), satellite connections that no longer worked, a forced air furnace that forced little air, cable slides that needed constant attention, and more and more.
We went to a local RV show this past spring. Many makes and models to choose from. We thought we would give Keystone/Thor one more chance and looked at the Cougars, Jaycos and Montanas. Not much difference in construction quality-very lacking and full of staples and simulated wood from paper.
So, we settled on a competitor's brand. Yes, it has the characteristics of mass-produced RVs. However, some of the construction quality is much better than I have found on Keystone products. And, the customer service of the manufacturer is very responsive and helpful.
I believe we the customer, rather than being blinded by the bright lights, shiny appliances and exterior, need to pay more attention to detail of the visible issues. That would make one question the quality of the non-visible details.
I should have looked much closer at the details of that Cougar. I did learn my lesson. I looked my new 5th wheel over extensively before the sale and again at PDI.

Look closely future buyers. It will save you in the long run.
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