Half ton diesel

**hankpage** · 02-14-2013, 07:31 AM

No specs yet, but a little info on 1500 Ram diesel from TDR and USA Today.
I thought that 1/2 ton fans would be interested.

Scooped: Information of immediate interest published or broadcast before the Turbo Diesel Register was informed. Sure, I guess you could say we were scooped. But considering the far-reaching numbers of USA Today versus the Turbo Diesel Register . . . well, I think it would be best to distribute the following news first at USA Today.

And that is what the folks at Ram did with their announcement about a forthcoming 1500 Ram diesel pickup. The details are available on USA Today's website, as well as the Turbo Diesel Register's home page.

USA TODAY article

Key points:

- Ram will be the first to market with a 1500 diesel.
- Forecast for availability is third quarter this year.
- Ram's move is unexpected. It caught everyone by surprise.
- The engine is a 3-liter VM Motori, and in the newly-announced Jeep Grand Cherokee it is rated at 240 hp/420 torque. Remember the '89 - '93 Turbo Diesels were 160 hp/400 torque.

davidjsimons · 02-14-2013, 07:47 AM

I had a Jeep Liberty with the 2.8L VM Motori back in 2006. I would have preferred an inline configuration with this new engine. My Jeep was an inline four.

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EcoboostKev · 02-14-2013, 07:52 AM

Interesting!! I can't wait to see how it matches up with the F 150 Ecoboost...

**JRTJH** · 02-14-2013, 09:03 AM

Don't interpret this as anything "negative" toward Dodge or anyone else who introduces a diesel in the half ton series, I wish we'd have had that option for years now. But, Dodge's half ton needs to be updated "seriously" if they are going to try to compete with GM and Ford for the "HD" half ton market. First, they will need to upgrade suspension, axles, frame components to make them heavier than current availability. ie: 6 or 7 lug wheels, not "car wheels" as are the only current availabiltiy, improved axle load limits, and stiffer frames.

I am excited to see the introduction of diesels into the half ton's, now it's just a matter of meeting the competetion to build a chassis that will "do the work" the engine is capable of performing.

I just reread the article in USA Today. I didn't catch this on the first read, but did the second time around. GM, for all its good, had a belief years ago that people would buy GM just because of the name. You know, "brand loyalty" I thought a part of the recent restructuring tore that "ideology" away and GM was going to be realistic in being competetive. Buried in this Dodge report by USA Today, is the following:

"The diesel Ram 1500 shouldn't hurt the GM trucks too much, said Jessica Caldwell, a top auto-industry analyst at Edmunds.com. "We know truck (brand) loyalty is very high." Could she really be saying that GM is still holding on to the belief that people will buy GM just because of the name? Hmmmmm

fla-gypsy · 02-14-2013, 07:06 PM

If Ram plays this right and balances the fuel economy with towing capacity and doesn't try to turn this 1/2 ton into a heavy hauler they can grab some market share. That is assuming it is a reliable motor and platform. If not played well it could really hurt them.

Festus2 · 02-14-2013, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRTJH;64032

I just reread the article in USA Today. I didn't catch this on the first read, but did the second time around. GM, for all its good, had a belief years ago that people would buy GM just because of the name. You know, "brand loyalty" I thought a part of the recent restructuring tore that "ideology" away and GM was going to be realistic in being competetive. Buried in this Dodge report by USA Today, is the following:

[COLOR="Red"

"The diesel Ram 1500 shouldn't hurt the GM trucks too much, said Jessica Caldwell, a top auto-industry analyst at Edmunds.com. "We know truck (brand) loyalty is very high."[/COLOR] Could she really be saying that GM is still holding on to the belief that people will buy GM just because of the name? Hmmmmm

JRTJH -
I think Jessica Caldwell has a point when she says that "brand loyalty is very high". If you look back at the posts submitted by our members, then you will find that, in many cases, what she is saying is true. Right here on the forum you will find a dedicated group of Dodge loyalists. They wouldn't consider buying anything else. Dodge trucks and Cummins diesels forever. Same goes with many Ford owners. I would guess that GMC/Chev folks are probably a little less enthusiastic and loyal to General Motors but they do, nevertheless, remain fairly committed to that brand.

Presently, I drive a GMC truck and have been extremely happy with it. Never towed with a Dodge and probably never will. Why? I once owned a Dodge car and a Dodge camper van and had nothing but trouble with them. Just left a sour taste in my mouth, a hint of which remains today, about Dodge products.

But I know that there are lots of folks who swear by Dodge trucks and by all accounts they are great vehicles. Same with Ford.

If someone were to ask me to rationally and logically explain why I am loyal to GMC trucks, I really can't offer any legitimate explanation. Perhaps it is a mindset that becomes ingrained over time. Perhaps it was the bad experiences I had with previous Dodges. Who knows?

Brand loyalty just isn't confined to vehicles. I am loyal to Honda lawnmowers, Weber BBQ's and Crown Royal Canadian Rye whisky .... not necessarily in that order BTW. That isn't to say that the other brands aren't good. These are my first and probably only preferences mainly because I've had positive experiences with those three.

Yes, I am guilty of being loyal - not a loyalist - that is another subject which is too political to be discussed on here.

**JRTJH** · 02-14-2013, 10:13 PM

Festus, I too am pretty much loyal to Ford. I told of my issues with a new Dodge truck in 1972 and like you, that bitter taste remains even today. I agree with you that brand loyalty is real and I've seen it on this forum as well as in many other facets of life. I had specific drugs I chose to use when treating my patients, I wouldn't use others, just because of a study from long ago, or an issue with another patient. I drink Bud Light, don't really like the taste of Miller lite any more, and have never even tasted Corona... the list goes on and on...

My point in the previous post was to highlight what one analyst said about GM. As I remember, back in the 70's, the American auto industry got complacent, started producing what today we'd call substandard "trash" and the European and Japanese markets pretty much put a "whammey" on Detroit. American Motors went under, Chrysler was headed there and Iacocca pulled them back from the brink with help from Washington. I don't think that DOD bought anything but K cars and power wagons for a 5 year period in the early 80's... Back then, the auto execs seemed to think that Americans wouldn't buy foreign cars... and there were times when Japanese cars would be damaged if they were parked in a GM autoworker's parking lot at an assembly plant....

Anyway, I'm thinking what got Detroit into a significant part of the recent problem they faced was that old "people will buy whatever we give them" attitude..... That contributed to near bankrupcy for all of the "Big Three" GM made statements that they had learned they need to be competetive and not rely on past performance to stay afloat after the bailout.

I just commented on the inclusion of that analyst's statement about "brand loyalty" not harming GM.... That's at least in part, what caused the near collapse in 5 or 6 years ago... I was just stating my concern that I hope GM isn't falling back into that same mindset of not remaining on their toes and keeping up with the competetion.....

davidjsimons · 02-15-2013, 02:00 AM

I am a die hard MoPar or no car guy. I'm sure some have gathered that. I can say this with all honesty, Sergio Marchione has done a great job thus far as CEO of Chrysler. By the Summer of 2009, few were putting any faith in a comeback. Well, what is happening at Chrysler is what happens when you put a car guy at the head of a car company. Thirty five consecutive month over month by year sales increases and the number one selling line of trucks in the class III to VII market. What is going on over at GM is the result of a government bureaucrat bean counter at a car company. It is a shame to see it. I know many of you will take issue and exception with this post but they are facts that can not be disputed. Brand loyalty is a GREAT thing when the manufacturer is customer loyal as well. I've had great customer service out of Chrysler over the years. I had a Cummins engine block split on me years ago. I was 50,000 miles out of warranty. My engine was replaced free of charge and no labor charged. Chrysler said that Cummins engine blocks don't do that, regardless of mileage. They also gave me a new three year or 36,000 mile warranty on the engine. They then turned around and sold me a new truck considerably below dealer cost as an apology for the entire episode. My family has driven Chrysler products since 1936, the factory rep was aware of that and that fact influenced their decision. That is customer loyalty from the auto manufacturer. That is what makes guys like me and sells vehicles tomorrow.

This is not a poke at Ford or GM. It is just my experience. I am sure many could tell horror stories about the experience with customer service and Chrysler over the years. Sometimes how you come across with the people from the factory handling your problem has a lot to do with their willingness to help.

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SAD · 02-15-2013, 03:39 AM

NOTE -> I did not read the article....

With that said...

Is it believed that:

a) this new motor is to give the 1500 more capability?
or
b) this new motor will allow the 1500 perform it's current capability in a better and more efficient way?

davidjsimons · 02-15-2013, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAD

NOTE -> I did not read the article....

With that said...

Is it believed that:

a) this new motor is to give the 1500 more capability?
or
b) this new motor will allow the 1500 perform it's current capability in a better and more efficient way?

I believe that it is geared more toward B.

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x96mnn · 02-15-2013, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRTJH

But, Dodge's half ton needs to be updated "seriously" if they are going to try to compete with GM and Ford for the "HD" half ton market. First, they will need to upgrade suspension, axles, frame components to make them heavier than current availability. ie: 6 or 7 lug wheels, not "car wheels" as are the only current availabiltiy, improved axle load limits, and stiffer frames. Hmmmmm

JR I will respect your opinion as your opinion but I do not agree with you. Bigger is not always better and more is not always a positive. Engineering will win the battle of today Half Tons by making them stronger, lighter and more durable. What's the difference in a 7 lug system that exerts 100Pds per inch and a wheel stud of 5 lug design that handles 200pds per inch? From an engineering standpoint the Dodge in the technical circle is considered years ahead of the others and some view it before its time. Honestly I do not know!

At the end of the day regardless of which brand you choose you are going to lose something and gain something. I think people could sit all day and argue my ford is better then your dodge is better then your Chev is better then your toyota......I think I will just go camping instead

**JRTJH** · 02-15-2013, 05:50 AM

SAD, the article is a short one page "news release" and really an interesting read. I've read it 4 times now and every time I find something "between the lines" that causes more questions than it gives answers. Isn't that what a press release is designed to do?????

To answer your question, I agree with David. The CEO of Chrysler of Mexico (who gave the interview on the diesel release) said this: "We think customers will be satisfied with the value proposition" after considering price, mileage and towing and hauling capacities," Diaz said.

It's interesting that the truck will be made in Detroit with an engine from Italy. It's even more interesting that the information about the truck is coming from the CEO of the Mexican arm of Chrysler, not from the plant that leaked the release to the Detroit Free Press.

David, Many people have had good luck with Chrysler. Others haven't. That's the same, I think, with Ford, GM, Toyota and all the rest. I well remember when Toyota and then later, Datsun first came to the states. The rusted out fenders, split and sun checked interiors, dashes that literally fell apart... Then, years later, Hundai became the "new Far East import" with many of the same reliability issues. To this day, I'm reluctant to buy a Toyota because of that old 75 Corolla that literally fell apart in 1977, a time when I had little money to buy a replacement vehicle and even less patience with the excuses I was getting for my "just out of warranty" new car. So, I bought a Vega GT, and we all know how the first "Aluminum engines" faired.... Along came a Datsun B210 in the mid 80's, and believe it or not, the same dash cracking, body rusting, upholstery tearing issues as that old Corolla. But I'd have to admit, the rotating dash vents were "cute"

So, when that Datsun died in the middle of the street, the nearest dealer was a Ford dealer and I walked in, bought a new Fairmont, drove it over 100,000 miles without doing anything but routine maintenance. All of those experiences with trying to "do the cheap" created the brand loyalty for me, much as your engine block experience created the Chrysler loyalty you have.

For me, I wouldn't even consider a Kia because of the Hundai problems and I haven't even looked at the Toyota or Nissan offerings since the mid 80's. I'm sure they all build much better vehicles than they did back then, but my experiences have tainted my loyalty toward a different manufacturer.

I agree with you and with Festus2, brand loyalty is strong and a real emotion among all of us. My concern with GM is whether they are moving back to rely on their old habits of "they'll buy what we give them" without striving to keep improving their products. That quote from Jessica Caldwell just seemed to strike a chord of the old GM policy of "we're the best, just trust us on that" and I hope it's not the current thinking among GM's new government sponsored leadership team. Like you, I think Chrysler has rebounded due to the leadership of a "car guy" running a "car company" I'm betting this new diesel half ton will be a big hit as long as they can upgrade the vehicle to match the engine's capabilities... Hankpage reminded us that in the early 90's, "big diesels" in the 3/4 and 1 ton trucks produced power in the range of this new diesel, so its towing performance should be remarkably better than the current model 1500. The limiting factors now seem to be the current trucks capacities, not its capabilities.

davidjsimons · 02-15-2013, 06:13 AM

JRTJH,
The biggest problem that they will face with that new truck will be people trying to work it like a 3/4 or 1 Ton Cummins. I've seen it. My uncle was famous for buying 1/2 tons because they were cheaper and then sending them to the spring shop. You know the rest of the story, as Paul Harvey would've said. The rest of the truck didn't compare. Sure, this new 1500 diesel may offer more capabilities, but just as you said, capacities will dictate the rest. I feel it will perform well and if worked within its capacities, and offer great service for many miles.

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**JRTJH** · 02-15-2013, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x96mnn

JR I will respect your opinion as your opinion but I do not agree with you. Bigger is not always better and more is not always a positive. Engineering will win the battle of today Half Tons by making them stronger, lighter and more durable. What's the difference in a 7 lug system that exerts 100Pds per inch and a wheel stud of 5 lug design that handles 200pds per inch? From an engineering standpoint the Dodge in the technical circle is considered years ahead of the others and some view it before its time. Honestly I do not know!

At the end of the day regardless of which brand you choose you are going to lose something and gain something. I think people could sit all day and argue my ford is better then your dodge is better then your Chev is better then your toyota......I think I will just go camping instead

x96mnn, If you're thinking that I'm not excited with the news release from Chrysler, you're wrong. I am very excited with the prospect of a diesel in the half ton trucks. I agree with you that "bigger is not always better" but when you look at almost every answer to the question "is my vehicle big enough" that has occurreed here, the basic answer comes down to payload, gvw and towing capacity as the limiting factors in towing most anything except the "smaller part of midrange weight RV's" with half ton trucks.

Dodge's "biggest" half ton crew cab 4X4 currently on the market has the following specs:

Max GVW 6800 lbs
Max Payload 1543 lbs
Max Tow 10,000 lbs That's a tongue weight of 1000 - 1500 lbs
Longest truck bed: 5'7" (Too short for any fifth wheel hitch manufacturer's recommendation of a min 6' bed)
GAWR front/rear 3900/3900
Wheels, Heaviest tire available is a P series 20" diameter. The wheels are not rated for LT tires.

So, just taking the specs from the current truck, if Chrysler really wants to make the most of a diesel engine to match what the CEO of Chrysler de Mexico said, "...mileage and towing and hauling capacities" then the current body capacities won't cut it based on the requirements for current RV's.

While "bigger is not always better" I'd have to say that Chrysler needs to bring capacities equal to the engine to the table or buyers are going to be disappointed when they can't hook up their 1,000 lb tongue weight RV to their new truck that has the "guts to pull even more"

KenBob · 02-15-2013, 06:38 AM

The diesel 1/2 ton was likely designed to fill a need in a certain area. Ram has a 3/4 ton CNG vehicle (Hemi) that can be purchased by the general public but aimed at fleet/commercial customers. The 1/2 ton would be welcome in diesel fueled industries like farming as a "supervisor" truck etc. With diesel priced above gasoline, the 1/2 ton driving public will likely stay with gasoline power, even for towing. Being in the automotive industry, I see1/2 ton trucks are used more as daily drivers/grocery getters. Sure, they may get loaded occasionally, or tow an average boat or small RV, but the industry knows that in trucks, and towing, bigger is better.

**JRTJH** · 02-15-2013, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidjsimons

JRTJH,
The biggest problem that they will face with that new truck will be people trying to work it like a 3/4 or 1 Ton Cummins. I've seen it. My uncle was famous for buying 1/2 tons because they were cheaper and then sending them to the spring shop. You know the rest of the story, as Paul Harvey would've said. The rest of the truck didn't compare. Sure, this new 1500 diesel may offer more capabilities, but just as you said, capacities will dictate the rest. I feel it will perform well and if worked within its capacities, and offer great service for many miles.

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I completley agree. I am excited about the prospect of a diesel in the half ton and at the same time am "fearful" that as you say, people treat it like a 3/4 ton. My hope is that Chrysler will up the capacities of the current 1500 to match those of Ford or GM. roughly 2000 lb payload, 7700 lb GVW and 4000-4200 lb rear axles with wheels capable of supporting LT tires. If they do, then they will see a lot of interest from Ford owners (including me) who would consider replacement of current capacity trucks with a Dodge of similar build.

My concern is that we could see that engine, as much potential as it has to be successful, tucked into the current truck with its payload of 1500 lbs, some of which will be reduced by the weight of the new engine. Put that on the market and people will try to tow a 7500 lb trailer (well within the engine's capacity) but will be overloading the payload with 4 passengers and a full tank of fuel. That will lead to sway problems, rear end sagging problems, P series tire wear and who knows what kind of "reputation" it will cause.

Let's hope the "car guy" running the "car company" gets it right. From his past offerings, I'm betting it will be a much beefier half ton than the current model. Let's hope so

audio1der · 02-15-2013, 06:58 AM

If this finally goes ahead it will certainly be an interesting niche in the market.
I wish the option had been available last year when we bought; it would have factored in.
So long as folks don't expect a 3/4 ton work out of them, the added MPG increase and engine torque would be welcome for towing without the added body height and poor ride quality of the 2500 platform.
As for the 20" wheels comments, only the Sport and Laramie's have 20"+ wheels standard, they are optional on all other trims, with 17" as standard. I should think Dodge would do the same with a diesel, to keep LT tires under the truck where possible. I'm a little surprised with all the 20" wheels out therwe on trucks, that there aren't one or two more LT tire options available.

SAABDOCTOR · 02-15-2013, 06:59 AM

WENT TO the vm web site neat motor but it is partly owned by FIAT

the brand loyalty is so amazing. at our shop we have acranums for most products dodge. Dead on day gaurinty expires. Ford spelled backwards Drivers return on foot. SAAB sorry about another breakdown. fiat found in a toilet. never did come up with anything for chevrolet but GM grave mistake. enough hummor on the bright side 1/2 ton diesels from all three or four would be a nice touch. i love the ride of a 1/2 ton from gm ford or dodge. kinda exciting to look forward to.

audio1der · 02-15-2013, 07:06 AM

Ride quality is something they will have to be very careful about. The ride quality of an unloaded Ram 1500 is near car-like, with the coil suspension in the rear. If they add any capability at all it may require leafs and that would make it a very truck-like GM/Ford ride (from our experiences test driving last summer- YMMV).
Even if they didn't up the towing or payload in order to keep the rear coils with a diesel it could be a great truck. Could.

davidjsimons · 02-15-2013, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAABDOCTOR

WENT TO the vm web site neat motor but it is partly owned by FIAT

the brand loyalty is so amazing. at our shop we have acranums for most products dodge. Dead on day gaurinty expires. Ford spelled backwards Drivers return on foot. SAAB sorry about another breakdown. fiat found in a toilet. never did come up with anything for chevrolet but GM grave mistake. enough hummor on the bright side 1/2 ton diesels from all three or four would be a nice touch. i love the ride of a 1/2 ton from gm ford or dodge. kinda exciting to look forward to.

Cheap Heap Every Valve Rattles Oil Leaks Every Time.

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