Towing heavy with 3/4 Ton... How Many Know......

[itat]

GVWR is about the weight that the vehicle can carry. GCWR is about the weight the engine can pull.

If you’re going to exceed your GVWR, just don’t overload your rear axle and tires and don’t exceed your GCWR.

[JRTJH]

Take a look at these three trailers. On the "hay wagon" the tongue weighs the same whether the trailer is loaded with 30,000 pounds of hay or empty. That kind of trailer will require considering the GCWR as the most important "towing factor".

Next, take a look at the horse trailer. Notice where the axles are located. That kind of trailer requires a heavier truck to carry a "full load" because the cargo exerts significantly more weight on the truck as the load increases.

Now, take a look at the axle position on most "RV fifth wheel trailers". The wheels are closer to the center of the frame, so that style trailer exerts less weight on the truck than the horse trailer because the weight is more "balanced" fore/aft of the axles.

It shouldn't be "rocket science" to understand that manufacturers advertise "trailer pulling capacity" in their brochures without describing the "STYLE" of trailer. Just because you won't "POP" the rear tires with 30,000 pounds of hay on a trailer with a tongue weight of 150 pounds doesn't mean you can tow a 30,000 pound horse trailer or for that matter a 15,000 pound RV fifth wheel.

The trailer STYLE must be considered as much as the GVW, GCWR, RAWR and tire size......

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Take a look at these three trailers. On the "hay wagon" the tongue weighs the same whether the trailer is loaded with 30,000 pounds of hay or empty. That kind of trailer will require considering the GCWR as the most important "towing factor".

Next, take a look at the horse trailer. Notice where the axles are located. That kind of trailer requires a heavier truck to carry a "full load" because the cargo exerts significantly more weight on the truck as the load increases.

Now, take a look at the axle position on most "RV fifth wheel trailers". The wheels are closer to the center of the frame, so that style trailer exerts less weight on the truck than the horse trailer because the weight is more "balanced" fore/aft of the axles.

It shouldn't be "rocket science" to understand that manufacturers advertise "trailer pulling capacity" in their brochures without describing the "STYLE" of trailer. Just because you won't "POP" the rear tires with 30,000 pounds of hay on a trailer with a tongue weight of 150 pounds doesn't mean you can tow a 30,000 pound horse trailer or for that matter a 15,000 pound RV fifth wheel.

The trailer STYLE must be considered as much as the GVW, GCWR, RAWR and tire size......

John, the GN Horse trailer you have pictured is appears to be a four horse with large living quarters. It is basically an equestrian Toy Hauler. If hauling four horses, the pin will not likely change much as they balanced over the rear axles. DD bought a used four horse with smaller LQ, that we towed home with our 2500, dry at about 7,000# (30' unit), it had a 2,700# pin, or about the same as our 5er (32' Copper Canyon) loaded to 12,700#.
I did convince DD to buy a 2004 Ram DRW to tow it with.

I understand your point, that that many new to towing don't, just because you have a huge towing capacity, doesn't mean you can carry that much.
Our 2016 Ram has a Max Trailer of 24,890, it would be hard to even stay under rear GAWR, let alone GVWR with a pin of 5,000# to 6,000#!

[Snoking]

Originally Posted by CWtheMan

Your story is very common. I’ve given comments on weights before. The gist here will be the same.

Manufacturers of vehicles build them to a given weight called Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR). Once the vehicle is ready for the open market the vehicle manufacturer must certify it as having complied with all vehicle safety standards as of the date of certification. It’s a serious document and has severe legal consequences for vehicle manufacturer violations. That is why, in the last section of vehicle certification, there is a notation that states only the vehicle manufacturer or a certified vehicle modifier have the authority to change a certified GVWR value.

The vehicle owner that disregards the GVWR and continuously exceeds it may never suffer vehicle damages for their actions. However, they are exceeding a weak link somewhere and it is more likely to fail when constantly overloaded.

When the vehicle is built the manufacturer must meet minimal safety standards and sometimes are required to exceed them with “reserve load capacities”. That’s true of axles and tires on automotive vehicles but not on RV trailers.

The Gross Axle Weight Ratings (GAWR) is to the axles as GVWR is to the vehicle. Except, on automotive vehicles there is going to be a percentage of reserve load capacity provided by tires that exceed the load capacity of the axles and axles that exceed the load capacity of the vehicle. It’s a mechanical/engineering thing that owners have mixed trusts in.

The simple answer; GVWR = the weight rating established by the chassis manufacturer as the maximum weight (including vehicle, cargo, liquids, passengers, etc.) the components of the chassis are designed to support.

Here is a post made by Wadcutter on NV.net on 1/21/19.

Please! Let's stick with what is actually the law and not what someone think the law says or wishes the law said just to support their unsupported argument. People who spout off that stuff have never read a law or most likely even know where to look for it even if they could understand what they read.
No LEO is going to give him a ticket for being over the manufacturer's GVWR. There's a very simple reason why. The manufacturer's GVWR is a rating by the manufacturer. It's not a legal weight limit. Manufacturers do not make the law. It is a non-enforceable rating used only by the manufacturer for their ratings. It's not a legal document and has no bearing on legal weights.
I didn't get my knowledge from listening to some fat guy in a flannel shirt sitting around a campfire. I taught truck laws and weight laws for a lot of years. I was recognized by the courts and FMCS as an expert in truck laws and weights. If a person is going to use a legal comment to support their personal opinion then post the statute. At least it might show the person knows what they're talking about.

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by Snoking

Here is a post made by Wadcutter on NV.net on 1/21/19.

Please! Let's stick with what is actually the law and not what someone think the law says or wishes the law said just to support their unsupported argument. People who spout off that stuff have never read a law or most likely even know where to look for it even if they could understand what they read.
No LEO is going to give him a ticket for being over the manufacturer's GVWR. There's a very simple reason why. The manufacturer's GVWR is a rating by the manufacturer. It's not a legal weight limit. Manufacturers do not make the law. It is a non-enforceable rating used only by the manufacturer for their ratings. It's not a legal document and has no bearing on legal weights.
I didn't get my knowledge from listening to some fat guy in a flannel shirt sitting around a campfire. I taught truck laws and weight laws for a lot of years. I was recognized by the courts and FMCS(A) (Not applicable with FMVSS)as an expert in truck laws and weights. If a person is going to use a legal comment to support their personal opinion then post the statute. At least it might show the person knows what they're talking about.

This thread has nothing to do with the law. It’s about towing heavy and the consequences.

We are all given owner’s manuals with our tow vehicles. Every one of them says the vehicle is designed for a specific maximum load capacity and its manufacturer says not to load it beyond that maximum load capacity (GVWR). The same is said about GCWR. It’s up to the individual owners to figure-out how to balance their loads and stay within the safety net that’s been provided by the vehicle manufacturers.

Industry standards are laws within themselves.

This is a quote I personally asked for and received from NHTSA. Like most things they write, it's brief and to the point. "Industry Standards generally form the basis for demonstrating product safety & quality before courts, regulators, retailers, consumers and others."

[Ken / Claudia]

I somewhat agree with Wadcutter in post #24. Here is my disagreement. He was a Comm. Truck guy. Not a police officer as I can tell enforcing non comm vehicles. I did both and still do the 2nd part. So this is only about non comm vehicles.
This state has a ORS 815.020 used by police a lot. I would bet most or all
states have some type of law. It is a catch all regarding operation of a unsafe vehicle of non comm vehicle types. So it is not geared to over weight passenger pickups but unsafe operation. I wrote as many troopers did at one time or another.
The number of the law 815.020 is the cite. Then the officer writes TO WIT:
Vehicle over weight by GVWR or tires or axles by xxx lbs if weighted. If not weighed you take a photo showing the bludging rear tires, rear bumper also dragging on road etc. Items that show the vehicle is over weight.
A officer could also write a ticket for careless driving which is a more higher level ticket. Careless is defined as driving a vehicle in a manner that could cause injury to property or persons. All tickets may get challenged in court. All I wrote which was few, I ever lost. I ever heard of a problem with the courts accepting those tickets.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by Ken / Claudia

I somewhat agree with Wadcutter in post #24. Here is my disagreement. He was a Comm. Truck guy. Not a police officer as I can tell enforcing non comm vehicles. I did both and still do the 2nd part. So this is only about non comm vehicles.
This state has a ORS 815.020 used by police a lot. I would bet most or all
states have some type of law. It is a catch all regarding operation of a unsafe vehicle of non comm vehicle types. So it is not geared to over weight passenger pickups but unsafe operation. I wrote as many troopers did at one time or another.
The number of the law 815.020 is the cite. Then the officer writes TO WIT:
Vehicle over weight by GVWR or tires or axles by xxx lbs if weighted. If not weighed you take a photo showing the bludging rear tires, rear bumper also dragging on road etc. Items that show the vehicle is over weight.
A officer could also write a ticket for careless driving which is a more higher level ticket. Careless is defined as driving a vehicle in a manner that could cause injury to property or persons. All tickets may get challenged in court. All I wrote which was few, I ever lost. I ever heard of a problem with the courts accepting those tickets.

Ken, so how did you use this law as to when to cite someone with it. You mention by weight, but also mention an I quote;

"If not weighed you take a photo showing the bludging rear tires, rear bumper also dragging on road etc. Items that show the vehicle is over weight."

So was the reason for stopping some one the appearance of being over GVWR?
I ask as with our old 2001 Ram 2500, while well over GVWR, I was within axle and well within tire rating. Now we see many that will bag their 3/4 and tow over GVWR and use the bags to level, I never had the need. So I ask would you have a reason to pull over my old combination short of traffic law violation.

[CWtheMan]

Now you have entered the rule of civil law area. It's where those that argue the overloading cases wanted you to go.

Here, in SC there are strict laws for loading your vehicles for more than they are registered to carry. The DMV uses vehicle manufacturer information to determine the maximum certified weight of your vehicles (GVWR). They use the vehicle manufacturer's maximum GCWR. For my particular vehicle there was two maximum loads they would register. 22k for a 3.73 gearing and 23.5K for my 4.10 gearing. My vehicle has a identifiable tag to display that I can tow to a registered value. The vehicle registration card has a block that allows me to be at a maximum of 23.5K when combined.


Our state patrols include active DOT patrol vehicles that carry scales to weigh individual wheel positions. If you have been suspicious enough to attract their attention they are going to check everything.

GCWR: The gross combined weight rating is the maximum allowable combined mass of a road vehicle, the passengers and cargo in the tow vehicle, plus the mass of the trailer and cargo in the trailer. This rating is set by the vehicle manufacturer.

All vehicle manufacturers emphatically warn that GCWR, GVWR and GAWR should never be exceeded for the reasons of safety and vehicle longevity.

[CWtheMan]

Let’s look at this in a different light.

Just about everyone that’s been towing RV trailers for 5 years or more know a lot about the dangers of tire overloading. They throw treads, blow-out or both.

What makes it seem safe about being overweight with the whole vehicle? Somewhere in that vehicle there is a weak link that is going to fail if constantly overloaded. Maybe not on your watch, but sooner or later it will fail.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by CWtheMan

Now you have entered the rule of civil law area. It's where those that argue the overloading cases wanted you to go.

Here, in SC there are strict laws for loading your vehicles for more than they are registered to carry. The DMV uses vehicle manufacturer information to determine the maximum certified weight of your vehicles (GVWR). They use the vehicle manufacturer's maximum GCWR. For my particular vehicle there was two maximum loads they would register. 22k for a 3.73 gearing and 23.5K for my 4.10 gearing. My vehicle has a identifiable tag to display that I can tow to a registered value. The vehicle registration card has a block that allows me to be at a maximum of 23.5K when combined.


Our state patrols include active DOT patrol vehicles that carry scales to weigh individual wheel positions. If you have been suspicious enough to attract their attention they are going to check everything.

GCWR: The gross combined weight rating is the maximum allowable combined mass of a road vehicle, the passengers and cargo in the tow vehicle, plus the mass of the trailer and cargo in the trailer. This rating is set by the vehicle manufacturer.

All vehicle manufacturers emphatically warn that GCWR, GVWR and GAWR should never be exceeded for the reasons of safety and vehicle longevity.

Just wondering how many times you have been scaled?

How many times are you going to repeat the same information!

Originally Posted by CWtheMan

Let’s look at this in a different light.

Just about everyone that’s been towing RV trailers for 5 years or more know a lot about the dangers of tire overloading. They throw treads, blow-out or both.
This is the point I was getting at in my original post! The original statement was basically, that there are those that tow over GVWR and ARE aware and still stay with in axle and TIRE ratings.
Then there are those that have NEVER been to a scale and have NO CLUE!


What makes it seem safe about being overweight with the whole vehicle? Somewhere in that vehicle there is a weak link that is going to fail if constantly overloaded. Maybe not on your watch, but sooner or later it will fail.

So one more time, I never condoned being over GVWR here or any other forum. Just that was my current situation at the time.
As to being overloaded, while I was over the stated GVWR of the 2500, Ram was a bit lazy about multiple GVWR. It seems that I have seen 100's of post on this and other forums about adding bags or other "Leveling" addition because of suspension squat, I never had that issue, even at my last scaling.
So I was not looking for another statement from CWtheMAN about never exceeding and weight rating, NOT my original question.

The original question was if those towing heavy with a 3/4 ton were AWARE there were over GVWR, and watching AXLE and TIRE ratings.
OR were they were TOTALLY unaware of being over GVWR, they were also UNAWARE of axle and tire ratings.

My last post was to Ken, of Ken/Claudia, as to what would be the reason to stop any rig on the road to scale. Did they randomly stop and weigh, or if it had bulging tires, and bumper dragging.

I really don't care any longer as I now have plenty of TV, and not as close to my weight ratings as you are.

[Ken / Claudia]

Regarding post #27. I meant to write rear bumper nearly dragging as in the normal truck rear bumper might be 24 inches above the road is now 6 or 8. A sign of overloaded no matter tonnage. (Dragging the rear bumper on the road of any vehicle is a violation).
Grossly overweight vehicles are easy to spot for the trained eye. An exception as I have stated before is rear air bags. They do hide the droopy truck rear end.
But the tires will give it away. They may be committing other violations, dragging rear mud flaps on road (violation) weaving due to light steering axle (violation if trailer is swaying or goes over the lane markers once). Watch them stop at a red light (if stopping past the crosswalk or stop line is a violation). At night are the headlights pointing into the trees and not the road (violation).
So, some of those factors maybe a overloaded vehicle or not but all allow a traffic stop and a further look. That is a small list of other reasons for a stop.
I am guessing that most when cited for overweight issues are from seeing what looks like a overloaded vehicle. They have been for me.
SORRY I reread the post. To answer the question I think in your case you would past the look over by a state trooper as they pass you on the road for being overloaded in the case you listed. Even if stopped for speeding I doubt many if any would look further.

[rhagfo]

Ken Thanks for your reply.
While I never liked towing over weight, that TV handled it well. I will say I have seen rigs I know should be over weight and look solid. That look fine and others that are squatting like they don't enough spring and bulging tires.

[CWtheMan]

I've been posting here a long time. Most that read my posts know that when we were full timing it down the road we scaled at least three times a year. Now that we are down to a few trips a year we scale after loading for the trip. Seldom do we have to move things around to balance the load because we've done it so often.

There is no excuse for being constantly overweight.

ADD an air bag? Isn't that adding weight to an already problem?

Well, anyway, I'm outta this one.

[BAK]

I've been reading all the posts regarding towing capacity so I built a custom spreadsheet that accounts for everything in my truck and trailer as well as my 2009 Ram 2500's GVWR/GCVWR/Payload/Towing Capacity to get a calculated payload estimate of where I am in regards to being over or under capacity with towing my "Half-Ton" towable 5th wheel.

My 25RES is one of Keystones smallest 5th wheels and is labeled as "Half-Ton" towable so I figured I'd easily come in way under weight. Unfortunately after physically weighing every item we have in the trailer and in the truck (including passengers) I'm showing I am 93 lbs overweight (with no food/drinks in the fridge)…


In looking at being @ 110 - 120 lbs over capacity with groceries i'm not too concerned about being over the limit but it does bother me that Keystone touts this to be a "Half-Ton" towable when it's clearly at my 3/4 ton's limits.

I know this is all based off "calculations" and I will try and get on some scales pretty soon to get a no BS weight.

[rhagfo]

Bak, I see you have a 2009 Ram 2500 CTD, is the GVWR 9,200# or 9,900#? Ram was VERY conservative with GVWR until 2013, then is all went way up.
That is part of the reason the new TV is a 2016 3500 DRW 14,000# GVWR! I felt your pain for a long time. Good luck when you scale.
If you carry stuff in the TV bed look at what you can move to the 5er, as then you are only carrying a percentage of it on the TV.

ON EDIT: Wow, with only a 7,500# GVWR and a Payload of 2,500# that 5er shouldn't weigh more than 8,500# loaded, that would be a 1,700# pin at 20%. Once again good luck with the scaling.

[Northofu1]

[BAK]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

Bak, I see you have a 2009 Ram 2500 CTD, is the GVWR 9,200# or 9,900#? Ram was VERY conservative with GVWR until 2013, then is all went way up.
That is part of the reason the new TV is a 2016 3500 DRW 14,000# GVWR! I felt your pain for a long time. Good luck when you scale.
If you carry stuff in the TV bed look at what you can move to the 5er, as then you are only carrying a percentage of it on the TV.

ON EDIT: Wow, with only a 7,500# GVWR and a Payload of 2,500# that 5er shouldn't weigh more than 8,500# loaded, that would be a 1,700# pin at 20%. Once again good luck with the scaling.

My GVWR is 9,000 with a stickered payload capacity of 2,331 lbs. I have 926.6 lbs of "stuff" loaded in the trailer so it should weigh in around 8,427 lbs. Based on a 20% of weight calculation for pin weight it should be at 1,685 lbs now. I used 20% since dry weight is 7,500 and listed pin weight is 1,500 which equals a 20% ratio.

This truck was given to me by my dad who moved up to a Class C and no longer needed a truck so I was more than happy to unload my Tundra for this one. Unfortunately it has a roll lok tonneau cover along with a tool box so there's an extra 130 lbs in the bed.

I'm not too concerned about pulling this 5ver since he had been pulling a 15,000 lb when fully loaded 36' Nu Way since the truck was new. About 70,000 miles and almost every state in the US without any issues. Doesn't justify being over loaded but definitely shows the truck is fully capable and well built.

Hopefully I can get it on the scales soon and figure out where it really comes in at and to see how accurate or inaccurate my spreadsheet is.

[daveinaz]

I never did (run over with a 2500) because I never wanted to chance it. I went straight to a diesel dually for our first truck. I just didn't want to ever have the feeling of the trailer pushing me around or getting white knuckled. It may be overkill, especially when driving around town, but the feeling of confidence when the 5er is attached is worth it.

[rbrdriver]

I also started out with a 1/2 ton truck, then moved up to 3/4 ton, and now am in a 1 ton dually Ram. What a difference in handling and just "feeling" much more safer and hauling with confidence. Of course we are pulling a large fifth wheel and I wouldn't even think about pulling it with anything less than what I now have. Just saying........

[Modifier]

Towing over the GVWR is NOT a good idea under any circumstances but too many people do it anyway. For this reason manufactures understate the allowable weight but this should NEVER be depended on. Better be safe than sorry.