Wall to Failure due to Slideout

[Outback332]

I have a 2018 Outback 332FK 37 foot travel trailer with cable type slides. We have owned this trailer since 2017 and have traveled quite extensively with it. Recently I noticed that when I operated two of the three slides, the lower wall moves in the opposite direction of the slide travel. This is simple physics since the slide frame is mounted to the wall. This movement, independent from the floor, is as much as 3/4 of an inche. In short, if this was a house, the sill plate is moving independent of the foundation (i.e. it's broken!!). I brought it to the dealer for repairs and showed the service manager the "moving walls". He completely understood the issue and wrote up an accurate description on the work order. Later, he called me with an estimate and a description of the work. I was told that all they had to do was adjust the cables on all three slides with an estimate of $1800. I tried to tell him several times that was not going to fix it, but he assured me it would. When I picked it up, they charged me $2700! The Service Manager and two techs argued with me that this wall movement was normal and was not going to break anything. It is not normal and sooner rather than later the wall will fail. Finally they told me that if I wanted to fix the wall, they would have to remove interior wall panels and devise a way to brace the wall structure. This is what I was asking them to do in the first place! It was clear that I was not going to make any progress without thousands of more dollars spent.

As usual,I will have to fix it myself and have an idea about how to do it; angle aluminum with through bolts and doubler plates under the floor and outside the lower wall. This will fix the problem, but since it involves bolt heads and a doubler plate that will be visible (but not very if I do a good job) outside the trailer, I am asking if anyone else has had this type of failure and what they did to fix it.

[JRTJH]

The biggest hurdle I think you're going to face is the "foam core laminated floor structure.

The way the walls are built and attached to the trailer frame/floor is with bolts through from above and nuts on the bottom to draw the wall tightly to the frame/floor.

One possible "good thing in your favor" is that the floor sits above the outriggers and that is where the wall is attached to the frame, at the ends of the outriggers. So, if you can identify the outriggers "at the location where the floor moves" you should be able to fabricate a "reinforcement angle or angles" to place both inside that space and outside the trailer FILON siding and then attach those reinforcement angles through the outriggers. You SHOULD be able to remove the J-wrap molding and possibly remove the J-wrap, so all the exterior bracing is "under the J-wrap once the trailer is reassembled."

Take some critical assessments concerning the floor. Trying to go "through the floor" with anything you need to tighten, will be defeated by the foam core which will compress and make it impossible to tighten adequately outside the bottom aluminum spar at the base of the wall.

ADDED: You likely have a broken weld on the aluminum structure which is the "bones of the wall structure". Fixing the wall movement may include "digging" the foam away from that broken aluminum structure and rewelding the breaks as well as then formulating some sort of bracket/brace to protect that area from future breaks.

[Outback332]

Thank you John. I will heed you advice about the floors. I am very concerned about a foam core and will make sure what I am going through is solid. There is an outrigger frame bracket in the repair area and I will look for another frame element to connect to.


I can get to the exact location of the failure in the outriggers. What I see from the underside of the outriggers are several 1 1/2 in. self tapping screws up into what appears to be the wall structure. I noticed on pickup inspection that several of these screws were loose and had the techs tighten them. I thought this might have been the problem, but no joy. I removed them for inspection and when reinstalled, they seem tight and not stripped. I was thinking of putting in bigger screws or lag bolts in place, but without knowing what the lower wall structure is, I don't want to just guess if this will fix it. Since the existing screws are tight, and the wall moves still, I doubt replacing these will make a difference anyway.

Quick question; what is the J-wrap molding you refer to? Also, if I were to make the repair as I was thinking in my post, the lower wall structure side is where the exterior aluminum skirt overlaps the fiber glass siding. Any outside work that is visible would be on this black aluminum skirt and could be mostly camouflaged.

[Outback332]

John, I just read your add on and will thoroughly investigate that. However, if there are broken welds, I would expect the wall sill to remain stationary and the wall to move. As it stand now, the entire lower wall moves across the floor as one piece. Your advice is really appreciated. Anymore thoughts you have will be equally appreciated. And I will surely let you know what I decided and how it turns out.

[JRTJH]

The J-wrap is that aluminum lower skirting that you have identified. If you remove the vinyl insert at the molding between the FILON and the J-wrap, you'll see screws that hold the molding in place over the join space. You can remove the molding and remove the lower J-wrap, allowing you access to the bottom of the actual trailer sidewall structure. It's there, that joint between the FILON and the J-wrap that you can insert your brackets, then when reassembled, the brackets would be hidden behind the J-wrap and only a small part of them would be visible above that molding, once you reinstall the J-wrap.

Just be CAREFUL with removing or disassesmbling the J-wrap, it's easy to bend or buckle and if you "jerk too hard" you can split the FILON away from the luan backing and wind up with some delaminated siding to cope with.

[Outback332]

Perfect, that is exactly the info I am looking for and will again heed your advice and proceed very carefully!


Thank you again.

[sourdough]

I use DW to help remove the J wrap. It's very flimsy and if it's a very long piece it will want to buckle so the 2nd set of hands is invaluable to me. Also pay attention to how it is attached under that strip and what the screws go through. They are bad about the screws being willy nilly, stripped, missing etc. The wrap is probably held on the ends securely but along the length under that strip could be most anything. If you reattach it and the screws aren't through the J wrap it will drop out from under that strip causing more problems so just keep a close eye. Good luck on your repair.

[CedarCreekWoody]

I had exactly the same issue except that mine was worse. When I would attempt to close the slide the wall would go out rather than the slide come in. I was 2,000 Mike's from home but managed to close the slide enough to get home (about 6 inches sticking out) and take it to my dealer. I was 2 yr and 11 months I to my 3 year structure warranty. The dealer took extensive photos, appealed to Keystone, and they agreed to cover under warranty!

The dealer removed the J-wrap and found a broken weld on what I call the sill plate. They brought in a welder who repaired the weld and then welded on a gusset plate for reinforcement. They then replaced the J-wrap. One year later it is still holding perfectly.

[Db361]

2021 Avalanche 390DS. Noticed a bulge at bottom of interior wall between ladder and kitchen slide. Alvarado, TX Keystone dealer found supporting mount on trailer frame bent causing wall to drop and breaking welds and bulging wall. Keystone honored our 3 year warranty with no problems. Attached are pictures of new supports and welding. Welder did a great job reinforcing this area. Make sure to check your flooring/wall supports under your trailer frames.

[Camper Herb]

I had this same issue. I think you will find that the wall is still fastened to the trailer floor and it is a weld that has failed on the 1” adware aluminum tubing used to make the wall. I was able to access mine by removing 2’x2’ piece of siding on the inside at the edge of the slide out. I used 1” aluminum strap to job weld t and screw to existing . Th tugging is relatively thin and would be very difficult to reweld. Any way I think you will find that the whole repair can be made from inside the trailer.
This is not uncommon to Keystone they were willing to repair mine under warranty I just didn’t want to wait the estimated 6-8 months for the repair. One thing your shop was correct on is if keystone does it they will replace the whole wall from the slide out forward or rearward which ever applies to be you.
Didn’t mean to be so lengthy but it is repairable by you if you’re handy. The inside paneling is glued to the wall with contact cement. Wall is made from 1” sqare aluminum tubing insulated with 1” high density foam board.
Camper Herb

[Outback332]

My wall failure issues have all been repaired. I wanted to follow up so everyone with these issues knows what I had and what I did to make the repairs. As it turns out, I had two issues; first, the wall sill and floor attachments at some of the six locations adjacent to the three push outs were loose. Second, I had one vertical wall stud to horizontal wall sill weld break. Both issues are now repaired.


The first issue was caused by what I think was poor design or cheap manufacturing of the floor to wall attachment. The manufacturer uses #12 by 3-inch self-tapping screws from underneath the floor (see photo), accessible from the outriggers, up into the wall sill. Some, but not all these screws were found to be loose and one or two were about to fall out. Since the floor is about 2 inches thick, these screws do not penetrate the top of the sill plate. I believe that these screws “wobbled” out their holes in the sill plate. I installed at least two ¼ by 4 ½ lag bolts next to the factory screws at all six locations adjacent to the three pushouts as follows; I first made sure the wall was all the way in by operating each slide a few inches to the out position. From underneath and in line with the factory screws, I drilled a 4.5-inch pilot with a 3/16 bit, straight up through the floor and into the sill. I drilled through 3 layers of aluminum, at least two were the sill plate bottom and top and one was part of the floor structure. I had confirmation of this from an RV tech I hired for the broken weld. I followed up with a ¼ inch bit only through the floor to clear the lag bolt shank. This repair fixed five of the six walls, no movement at all with slide operation! I was very pleased to say the least.


The second issue was a broken lower weld at the stud to sill connection where one of the larger slides is mounted. This section of wall is also between the front door and the slide, and supports floor and front stair loads. It was pointed out by a mobile RV Tech I hired to help with this repair that the entire floor flexed under load on the stairs and just inside of the door. I believe that this contributed to the broken weld. The repair could have been a weld, but the tech came up with an idea that we are trying out. He put two steel doublers, one inside the wall and one outside, that are completely hidden from view by the covers on the slide cables on the inside, and a slide seal on the outside. The screws that mount the slide frame are also through these doublers. There is no longer any wall movement or floor flexing. This also avoided cutting our inside wall covering and any needed patches to it. Hopefully this repair holds and avoids the need to open the wall for a weld.


I have also found another major structural issue with my trailer that is being repaired as I write this post; the tongue A-Frame is cracked on both sides where it meets the main frame. This caused a very slight sag that was barely noticeable but could have led to a catastrophic failure and loss of trailer and possibly worse. I will write this up in a separate post shortly.


To say the least, like so many on the forum and similar forums, I am very disappointed in the design and quality of trailers. I hope all this helps others with the same or similar issues.

[JRTJH]

After reading your most recent post and learning about the recent "find" of a cracked A-frame member, I'd be very concerned that the trailer has either been damaged by hitting a curb, a deep pothole or some other type of "accidental damage". It may have been damaged while being towed to the dealership from the factory or if you're not the original owner, it may have occurred prior to your purchase.

If the trailer was previously owned, I think I'd be doing some "in depth research" to determine if it was damaged prior to your purchase.

That said, there are a couple of "A-frame damage" threads on the forum and I'd suppose it "does happen infrequently", but to have your type of sidewall damage in multiple locations AND now to discover the tongue cracks, I'd start digging a lot deeper into the trailer's history.....

Something just doesn't seem right with all that damage with no "specific cause for it to show up so soon after manufacture" ...

That kind of damage is what you might expect to find on a trailer that was "dragged to Alaska and back, had several axle breakdowns and a few blown tires and then was washed and waxed real good and traded in for a new trailer after returning to CONUS".....

[Outback332]

Thanks for the reply, this is a well used but well cared for trailer and we are the original owners. There have been no accidents, potholes other than the usual, curbs or anything else. Tongue weight is too high for the frame members. Plain and simple poor design. I will not go into the engineering calculations that I have done, I am an aero structural engineer so I know what I am talking about;


Trailer Max W: 10K. CAT Scale loaded weight: 9600 with tongue weight 1300. Tongue weight is too high for a trailer that is below max and can't really be loaded that much behind the wheels. As I said, poor design in both structure and weight distribution.


Please don't guess at how this trailer has been treated, you just don't know.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Outback332

Thanks for the reply, this is a well used but well cared for trailer and we are the original owners. There have been no accidents, potholes other than the usual, curbs or anything else. Tongue weight is too high for the frame members. Plain and simple poor design. I will not go into the engineering calculations that I have done, I am an aero structural engineer so I know what I am talking about;


Trailer Max W: 10K. CAT Scale loaded weight: 9600 with tongue weight 1300. Tongue weight is too high for a trailer that is below max and can't really be loaded that much behind the wheels. As I said, poor design in both structure and weight distribution.


Please don't guess at how this trailer has been treated, you just don't know.

The damages you face are atypical for any trailer. I wasn't "guessing" how your trailer has been treated, but it's obvious that the damages you're reporting are not what has been reported on other trailers of the same brand and model/floorplan. There's very likely some "link to all the problems you face" that doesn't track back to "poor design".

Best of luck with your repairs.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by Outback332

Thanks for the reply, this is a well used but well cared for trailer and we are the original owners. There have been no accidents, potholes other than the usual, curbs or anything else. Tongue weight is too high for the frame members. Plain and simple poor design. I will not go into the engineering calculations that I have done, I am an aero structural engineer so I know what I am talking about;


Trailer Max W: 10K. CAT Scale loaded weight: 9600 with tongue weight 1300. Tongue weight is too high for a trailer that is below max and can't really be loaded that much behind the wheels. As I said, poor design in both structure and weight distribution.


Please don't guess at how this trailer has been treated, you just don't know.

A few things for consideration; your trailer is categorized as a "super light" unit although the weight is 10k gvwr. That alone means there are some "super light" materials used.....what and where I don't know. Super light = less strength/sturdiness.

I have always dodged a front kitchen unit (except my 1985 Terry Taurus) due to weight distribution. In your floorplan the vast majority of the weight is going to be forward of the axles including the pass through. That's not a good thing IMO. It also leads to what I would consider a potential overweight condition for the front half of the trailer including the frame/A frame. That 1300lb. tongue weight at 9600lbs. is pretty heavy but not too excessive IMO. The question then is the construction of that frame and what it can withstand. What size is the frame - 8"?

You said in your first post that the trailer has been used extensively. To my mind a trailer built to be an "ultra light" is probably going to start showing some effects of extensive use. With the weights distributed as they are in the FK I would expect those issues to start showing up in the frame/walls. The question then is if it poor manufacturing/design for these kinds of failures on an ultra light or being used beyond the limits of the design? I agree that if one is just "buying" a trailer and doesn't give those facts any thought that they just think the trailer should last forever and withstand anything thrown at it but that's not the reality of an ultra light IMO. I'm glad you got those things fixed and hopefully they hold up for you...and you didn't have to tear the wall out - always a great thing!

[Outback332]

Thank you very much for your comments. You are saying pretty much what I am. Well used means lots of miles, very few of which are on unpaved roads. I would estimate somewhere around 30 or 40K. Our current F350 shows almost 20K while our old truck, which pulled this trailer more, didn't log trailer miles. While 1300 may not be excessive (nice to know thank you for that opinion), it's enough weight to cause this failure over that many miles. It's simple metal fatigue and will occur in all structures after enough load cycles. Sooner if it's built light, as has occurred here.

Since the discussion has continued in this thread, I will finish it here rather than write a new one. I just got off the phone with the trailer shop (not an RV dealer). The frame repair will be to remove and straighten the A-frame, grind, clean and weld the cracks on top and down the sides. 1/4 inch by 12 inch full width steel plates will be welded onto the inside and outside of each rail. The A-frame will be reinstalled with Grade 8 bolts to replace the original huk-bolts. That will be over an inch of new solid steal bearing area where the original cracks formed, with 12 inches of reinforcement along the axis of the frame. Of course I will keep an eye on it, but this repair will be stronger than the original frame.

BTW, this repair is costing less than the outrageous $2700 the dealer charged me to adjust the push out cables!

As for the wall failures, I don't believe in coincidences and since the only place the walls failed was at the push outs, there is no doubt in my mind that they were caused as explained above after the many, many push out cycles during our travels. I will allow that the many miles we have taken this trailer may have had something to do with it also. However, the screws were too small and too short, period! Thank you to all the posts above with the same or similar issues. I hope mine helped you all as much as yours did for me.

Thank you for your comments and hopefully this will keep us going for many more miles. We love this trailer, the size and the floor plan, and plan to keep it for some time.

[wiredgeorge]

Cary, many thanks for an interesting thread and follow up details. Most folks who have frame issues never follow up with details on how these were resolved. The cracked A frame is very concerning and very likely an failure waiting to happen. Good luck and safe and happy camping.