Are the premium models really better?

[Customer]

Hello, we are shopping and have looked at the Fuzion 345. We are also considering the Grand Design Momentum but my questions refer strictly to the Fuzion.

Keystone calls the Fuzion and Raptor their premium TH models. Maybe someone can explain what that means.

Are the premium models build on separate lines? Separate factories? I doubt there could be substantial differences if they roll off the same lines in the same factories.

They mention screwed rather than stapled construction, is it true?

What about wall and roof construction and insulation?

In summary, I am willing to pay for quality but I want to be sure I am getting quality and not just glitz. I have found the factory website to be very lacking in information regarding construction and quality.

This RV will be used for long term part time and maybe future full time living.

Thanks,
Tim

[Zappa]

I bought a Fuzion on the same premise that they were the premium quality RV over the other brands. When I got into the guts of the trailer I was disgusted with the way they built it. A couple for instances are; the wall sockets. The hole was cut for the electrical outlet with a around hole saw, one over the top of the other rather than a rectangular hole. Now the socket does not fit tight to the wall without bending inward. All the interior cuts were done with a router and great big holes for all the pass throughs for pluming and such. The drawer supports were only held together with one screw per level on one corner, the drawers were not secure and fell to the left side. The ramp door is just plain junk.

They look great from the birds eye but when it is all said and done, there is no building code on an RV so there is really no standard to adhere to. The only thing they know is how many can we build today.

My advice to you is to get onto the guts of one and decide for your self. A quick way to see if they did a good job or not is to pull one of the outlet covers off and have a look there. That will give you some indication of the quality put into building that coach.

Good luck

[Mike484]

What I have found, is with quality, comes cost. A $30,000 RV is the same, no matter the manufacturer or model. But, even at that, just because it costs more, you may still not be getting higher quality, maybe the higher cost is nothing more than just adding fancy options. If you are looking for higher quality, you must also be willing to pay much more.

[dcg9381]

I think I believe the same thing.
Dealers sell trim level as "quality". It's not. It's just more options and better finish out.

[Pull Toy]

You really need to do your homework when comparing units, and sometimes it really does seem like "apples and oranges". If you're not sure, bring an experienced RV friend with you to pick apart features, and stare and compare.

Keystone lists Montana and Alpine as Premium 5'ers. In most cases, they're probably built on the same line by the same workers, just like Suburbans and Escalades, but have higher end appliances and utilities. As far as I know, Montana and Alpine are the only units that have a stock Heat Pump / AC unit combo's for the rear unit. Also check for Electric / Gas 10 gallon "fast recovery" hot water combo, Stainless Steel appliances, Corean countertops, dove tailed drawers, with quality slide type drawer supports, and upgraded hardware.

When all is said and done, only you can decide what works for you, but don't be afraid to ask questions, both of your dealer, and of us.

Good Luck!

[notanlines]

Customer, let's compare this situation to a Chevy pickup just for an example. You do realize that a plain Silverado 1500 at 33,000 is made in a different plant than a Chevy Denali at 60,000 and will only last half as long. Better engines, better transmissions, better paint.
What? They're not? Well, go figure. Huh, for twice the money I'd a thought they'd have been built at another location with a lot better ingredients. Trailers like that maybe?

[sourdough]

This question is about as long as it is wide.

I think the one of the posters above had it right. If you want to pay 30k for A, you will get about the same thing if you buy it from B, C or D. Materials, techniques etc. are all the same. Pay grades are about the same and complaints about every manufacturer are there. Frames are going to be about the same given the same type unit although suspensions may differ; ie; "premium".

Premium, in a brand line, will allude to possible added insulation, covered underbelly's, 2 ACs vs 1; larger, fancier appliances, countertops, doors etc. Cabinet construction differs; trim definitely differs; and on and on.

The only way to know that you are getting what you perceive as "premium" is to determine what that consists of in your mind and then insure that the potential purchase has it.

[theeyres]

You can buy a Chevy truck or a GMC truck. One is standard, the other is premium. Is one better than the other? You decide. They may be the same frame, engine, etc. but the GMC has leather and more comfortable seats, deluxe gages, fancy do-dads. Which is better? Both are fine. It just depends on what you want.

[CaptnJohn]

Having previously owned RVs from many builders for over 40 years I researched Heartland, Forest River, and Keystone. I spent time in 5ers of many brands of those 3 builders. MOST 'premium' 5ers were much larger than 2 people needed ~ we do not need to sleep 8 - 12 or need 40'+ that requires a 1 ton dually. There are only so many component manufacturers so you will get either a Thetford or Dometic toilet, black appliances or stainless but only a few manufacturers of each. Digging inside I think I found entry level units quality lower than the standard level which justified the extra costs. There was some additional quality in some premium models over the standard but most ~ not all~ was fluff. I liked the Keystone Alpine and Heartland Landmark but not the length, weight, or cost. We found a standard ~~ Cougar ~~ to meet all our expectations. We had planned on a Rockwood by Forest River until we saw the Cougar. Both are standard and the Cougar priced a little higher but had so much more (including auto-level). Comparing it to the premium models the additional cost did not justify the additional slight benefits in our minds.

[bsmith0404]

The main differences you will see on premium units are items such as cherry or oak cabinets vs a press board with vinyl wood look covering. Maybe some items such as leather vs cloth furniture, cedar lined closets, upgraded fixtures, better insulation or heated underbelly/tanks, larger hot water heater, upgraded pin box, 4 step entry...etc. Probably the biggest difference/cost is a gel coat exterior finish. It is a nicer looking finish and, IMO, easier to keep clean and new looking. I've owned different levels of RVs and will say that I love the premium/luxury lines.

[Customer]

Maybe I wasn't clear;

The biggest problem plaguing the RV industry and RV buyers is for the companies to produce a quality product at a price point the customer is willing to pay. Unfortunately the RV industry is known for building poor quality product. In quality control the RV industry is where the American auto industry was in the 1950's until the imports came and ate their lunch.

I have owned many RVs in the past and currently own two. I have plenty of experience in dealing with and rectifying poor quality RV assembly.

Keystone makes trailers from the entry level cheapo weekend campers up to what they call premium models.

If the entry level and the premium models roll off the same assembly line, produced by the same workers, we cannot expect the construction quality of one to be any better than the other. A worker that puts together a $10,000 RV on Tuesday will likely put the same effort and quality into a $100,000 RV on Wednesday.

So the original question, do the premium models roll off the same line in the same factory as the cheaper models? Keystone claims that the premium model cabinetry is screwed construction and no staples are used. Does that indicate a separate factory or line?

There are manufacturers that do not build entry level models but only build premium models. It seems we can assume that those factories would be better able to control the construction quality.

I'm talking about trailers that have an MSRP in excess of $100,000, I hope they aren't built by the same workers that build the $10,000 trailers.

[1jeep]

When we bought our Carbon we also looked at the Raptor, even found they each had models that shared the same floor plans.
Only differences I could find were that some of the standard options on the raptor were upgrades on the carbon. For us we optioned the carbon with the 2nd ac unit, gen and 3 batteries, I felt no need for 6 hydraulic jacks and a side by side fridge as we only camp weekends and such.
If I were full timing I might have considered going up for the more features, other things such as a bigger brand name tv are things I can change anytime. Honestly its been a year and I have yet to watch the tv. My carbon came with woodish floors and solid surface countertops, decent cabinets and stainless fridge face.

Did I feel the raptor or higher end were better in workmanship or quality, NO, rolled out of the same factory built by the same company with the same standards.

My suggestion is buy the one with the features you want/need, whether it is the premium model or not.

[Face Down]

Originally Posted by 1jeep

When we bought our Carbon we also looked at the Raptor, even found they each had models that shared the same floor plans.

I will expand on this a bit as we did the same thing comparing. A Carbon 357 and a Raptor 375TS are pretty much the exact same floor plan....from my observations here are the differences:

Construction exactly the same....and my guess built on the same line by the same people. I feel the construction was really good on both units.

Raptor:
weighs more (2K pounds)
costs more ($15-20K)
has much nicer appliances, fixtures, stereos, TV's, interior lights
has a better outside finish
has many more standard features (Hyd. Leveling, 2nd Awning, Built-in Vacuum Cleaner, second AC, 2nd and 3rd TV)
has 4 step vs. 3 step entry.
has less outside storage (to house bigger water heater and vacuum system)
has slam latches and shocks on outside doors
has double fuel station
has frame-less windows
comes with a King Bed (and different bedroom slide layout)
comes with a "Toy Lock"
comes with fireplace
has less counter space
has less inside cabinets
has washer and dryer prep.

I am sure there are more differences but what is listed above makes it a premium unit over a Carbon. Is it worth the extra money...that is up to the individual, in our case it was not and we are very happy with our purchase. If they would have been the same price...ya, we would have went with the Raptor.

[Mike484]

Originally Posted by Customer

Maybe I wasn't clear;

I'm talking about trailers that have an MSRP in excess of $100,000, I hope they aren't built by the same workers that build the $10,000 trailers.

With that budget, you shouldn't have a problem finding a higher quality rig than a $10,000 unit. I think most people were talking more on the lines of comaparativly priced units that claim the title of "Premium" for just a few more bucks.

When we bought ours, our main objective was to purchase the biggest trailer we could that would allow us to use our current 1/2 ton truck. No "Premium" model was available that met our needs. We will probably upgrade later after we upgrade the truck.

I still feel as though the best trailer is the one that best fits your personal needs and preferances.

[michael_h]

I feel one difference in premium models is the front cap. When I looked at the different models I noticed the hump roof line does not fit as well to the front of the none fiberglass cap models as it does on the fitted cap models. Maybe just a small improvement to some, but I like the idea that parts have more precise fits and less caulk. Also the sides of the cap lap over the wall and hopefully will detur leakage

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by Customer

Maybe I wasn't clear;

The biggest problem plaguing the RV industry and RV buyers is for the companies to produce a quality product at a price point the customer is willing to pay. Unfortunately the RV industry is known for building poor quality product. In quality control the RV industry is where the American auto industry was in the 1950's until the imports came and ate their lunch.

I have owned many RVs in the past and currently own two. I have plenty of experience in dealing with and rectifying poor quality RV assembly.

Keystone makes trailers from the entry level cheapo weekend campers up to what they call premium models.

If the entry level and the premium models roll off the same assembly line, produced by the same workers, we cannot expect the construction quality of one to be any better than the other. A worker that puts together a $10,000 RV on Tuesday will likely put the same effort and quality into a $100,000 RV on Wednesday.

So the original question, do the premium models roll off the same line in the same factory as the cheaper models? Keystone claims that the premium model cabinetry is screwed construction and no staples are used. Does that indicate a separate factory or line?

There are manufacturers that do not build entry level models but only build premium models. It seems we can assume that those factories would be better able to control the construction quality.

I'm talking about trailers that have an MSRP in excess of $100,000, I hope they aren't built by the same workers that build the $10,000 trailers.

I guess, if the main concern was that a cheaper unit rolled off the same assembly line that my "premium" unit did, I would just buy from a manufacturer that made nothing less than 100k trailers. Not logical, but to each his own. Also, tagging something with a 100k price doesn't necessarily mean you got 100k worth of anything.

Keystone, and the rest of the trailer manufacturers, make economy, standard and premium lines. I am sure there are specs that detail what materials are used and the installation standards used. The techs will use those materials and specs. The premium unit may be on a different "line" but I doubt it. I do know that all you have to do is walk through an entry level unit and a premium unit and you will know it.

Kind of like comparing my rebuilds of an old 258ci inline 6 for my Jeep and an old 454ci for my Chevelle. The 258 came out pretty, functional and did its job. The 454 came out shining, chrome everywhere and bad to the bone - when I hammered it my son said I turned Chinese because my eyeballs pulled back. No comparison in the products; one good and did what it was supposed to, the other was pretty, an eye catcher and top of the line, costing thousands more than the other. Was the 454 tainted because it came off the same "line"? Same worker, same shop, same engine stand, same cherry picker, tools etc.? Of course not. A different product was being built; different specs; different materials......just sayin.

[1jeep]

Originally Posted by Face Down

I will expand on this a bit as we did the same thing comparing. A Carbon 357 and a Raptor 375TS are pretty much the exact same floor plan....from my observations here are the differences:

Construction exactly the same....and my guess built on the same line by the same people. I feel the construction was really good on both units.

Raptor:
weighs more (2K pounds)
costs more ($15-20K)
has much nicer appliances, fixtures, stereos, TV's, interior lights
has a better outside finish
has many more standard features (Hyd. Leveling, 2nd Awning, Built-in Vacuum Cleaner, second AC, 2nd and 3rd TV)
has 4 step vs. 3 step entry.
has less outside storage (to house bigger water heater and vacuum system)
has slam latches and shocks on outside doors
has double fuel station
has frame-less windows
comes with a King Bed (and different bedroom slide layout)
comes with a "Toy Lock"
comes with fireplace
has less counter space
has less inside cabinets
has washer and dryer prep.

I am sure there are more differences but what is listed above makes it a premium unit over a Carbon. Is it worth the extra money...that is up to the individual, in our case it was not and we are very happy with our purchase. If they would have been the same price...ya, we would have went with the Raptor.

My carbon came with a washer dryer prep, which I will never use.
Double fuel station would be nice if I used this trailer where I would need the generator, but I really don't.
Fireplace...I have one at home and prefer the campfire.
I really didn't feel the appliances were that much nicer, just not worth the extra $$ to me
my carbon did come with a second ac and generator, but the one thing I do wish I had requested was a second awning over the rear door.
For us the carbon was the perfect fit, we moved up from an older travel trailer, so this already felt fancy and im the guy still sitting outside at the campfire with a cooler of beer.

[dcg9381]

Originally Posted by sourdough

I guess, if the main concern was that a cheaper unit rolled off the same assembly line that my "premium" unit did, I would just buy from a manufacturer that made nothing less than 100k trailers. Not logical, but to each his own. Also, tagging something with a 100k price doesn't necessarily mean you got 100k worth of anything.

Keystone, and the rest of the trailer manufacturers, make economy, standard and premium lines. I am sure there are specs that detail what materials are used and the installation standards used. The techs will use those materials and specs. The premium unit may be on a different "line" but I doubt it. I do know that all you have to do is walk through an entry level unit and a premium unit and you will know it.

I think this is true. If you want one with significant differences in actual build quality, look to DRV or one of those brands. He's talking about actual prices being $100k, not the sticker.

Even these models have "new" issues. As do RVs costing 1M.

What does seem to differ within the normal brands is post sale service, warranty term, and real availability of non-dealer service. Those may be worth looking into.


Like several people above, I own a Carbon. I don't notice any difference in actual build quality from a Raptor. I don't like auto-levelers - mainly because I've dealt with them on other brands. I prefer to do my own home theater / stereo work. I can say that I would have preferred non-cable slides, but I read about a lot of issues with the schwintek slides.. A bigger fridge would have been a good option too... But I feel that it's an excellent value for how we use it and what we paid for it.

[hdrolling]

We looked at them all, some just feel plain. If you plan to stay in it long term or full time I'd look until you fall in love with a model and get that whether it's premium or not. Our's is just what we wanted and as soon as I looked through it I knew it was the right camper for us, it feels like a home away from home.

We do get picked on when we say were "Going camping", but there's nothing wrong with have all the creature comforts if it makes your vacation more comfortable. IMHO

[Face Down]

Originally Posted by 1jeep

My carbon came with a washer dryer prep, which I will never use.
Double fuel station would be nice if I used this trailer where I would need the generator, but I really don't.
Fireplace...I have one at home and prefer the campfire.
I really didn't feel the appliances were that much nicer, just not worth the extra $$ to me
my carbon did come with a second ac and generator, but the one thing I do wish I had requested was a second awning over the rear door.
For us the carbon was the perfect fit, we moved up from an older travel trailer, so this already felt fancy and im the guy still sitting outside at the campfire with a cooler of beer.

Yea...I would have never used the washer dryer either, we are weekend warriors and if we stay somewhere a week they have a laundromat...not worth the space, money or weight!

I am fine with the single tank...my Club Car takes a charge, not a refill.

I don't even use my fireplace at home...

Got the 2nd AC and genny too!

I plan on adding the 2nd awning before my week trip to Myrtle beach in August just to keep some heat off the garage area. It got awful hot back there last summer on that trip.

"For us the carbon was the perfect fit, we moved up from an older travel trailer, so this already felt fancy and im the guy still sitting outside at the campfire with a cooler of beer." Me too!!