Cougar Half Ton

[JeffS]

JRTJH -

Kudos; informed decision making is based on acquiring the correct data, NOT what the advertising, salesperson, or perhaps even your buddy says.

I have found the following site to be very helpful. It defines all the acronyms and terminology needed to complete the calculator for Travel Trailers & 5th Wheels. Plus by going to the page on Tow Vehicle Sizing/Truck Ratings you can access manufacturer data on most vehicles.

http://changingears.com/rv-sec-calc-...eight-fw.shtml

[schwalbach]

well said JRTJH

I still maintain that if you are adding springs to get it to handle well or carry the load it should be a red flag, It is ALL in the specs and if the specs don't carry the load you are only fooling yourself by patching it to hold the weight.

I really want to encourage you to scale your set ups, you will surprise yourself what the salesman said it weighed and what it does weigh, in fact it may well explain the tire issues some people have, if nothing else you will rest assured you do not exceed the axle weight ratings on the door post. You may have to move some things around to carry everything but it will also handle better with the wiehg tproperly distributed.

I was a service manager in a dealership for many years and you would be surpised how many units came in with people complaining about handling or stopping power. The first thing we would do if it looked heavy was scale it and most of the time we found excessive weight or distribution was an issue, once corrected allot of handling issues went away.

Again well said JRTJH, its all in the fine print!

[davidjsimons]

My father used to buy 3/4 ton trucks for working in the field. My uncle complained that he was spending too much money on the trucks and bought 1/2 tons and added rear springs. He never understood the brakes and bearings. The trucks were junk in twelve months. The guys actually loaded one of hem until the rear spring hangers broke and the springs went up through the floor of the body. My father just looked at his brother and laughed.


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[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by schwalbach

well said JRTJH

I still maintain that if you are adding springs to get it to handle well or carry the load it should be a red flag, It is ALL in the specs and if the specs don't carry the load you are only fooling yourself by patching it to hold the weight.

I really want to encourage you to scale your set ups, you will surprise yourself what the salesman said it weighed and what it does weigh, in fact it may well explain the tire issues some people have, if nothing else you will rest assured you do not exceed the axle weight ratings on the door post. You may have to move some things around to carry everything but it will also handle better with the wiehg tproperly distributed.

I was a service manager in a dealership for many years and you would be surpised how many units came in with people complaining about handling or stopping power. The first thing we would do if it looked heavy was scale it and most of the time we found excessive weight or distribution was an issue, once corrected allot of handling issues went away.

Again well said JRTJH, its all in the fine print!

I agree with you in part, but I can document, from entries in this forum, that just as many 3/4 ton owners add springs, air bags, heavier tires etc. as do half ton members. Saying that "adding components won't help you be safer is not true. Adding them won't increase the GVW or the axle ratings, but it will make the half ton handle better (just as it helps the 3/4 ton handle better)

As for tires, Ford puts the same LT275 65R 18 LRE tires on my truck (LT upgrade option) as they do on the 10,000 GVW 3/4 ton.

As for weighing my rig, I think it is prudent for anyone, regardless of what they tow or haul to know what their rig weighs. The first place we stopped after getting it home, doing a few mods and packing for the first trip was the CAT scales in Grayling Michigan. I am 800 lbs under my GAWR (F) and 650 lbs under my GAWR (R). The trailer GVW is 8100 lbs and actually weighed 6800 lbs. Total weight of the rig was 11,400. That's roughly 5,000 lbs below the GCWR for the truck. These weights are with full fuel, about 200 lbs in the bed of the truck, my wife, the dog and our normal "in cab equipment". I'd like to note here that my trailer weighs 6800 lbs my truck weighs 5600. The trailer outweighs the truck by 1200 lbs. That means the trailer outweighs the truck by 17%. If we compare a 3/4 ton truck weighing 8100 lbs towing a fifth wheel weighing 12,500 lbs, we find the trailer outweighs the truck by 4400 lbs. That calculates to the trailer outweighing the truck by 35%. I am of the opinion that given these two trucks, mine and the 3/4 ton, that the 3/4 truck would be "pushed around" more by the 35% margin than would my truck with its 17% margin.

Safe? In my opinion (and in the opinion of the engineers who designed it) Yes.

Could I have a bigger margin with a "beefier" truck? Yeah, but why? I then would face issues with additional taxes, higher insurance, no ability to park in my garage and a more expensive truck that I don't need.

I also should comment that some of the critics of half ton fifth wheel towing recently expressed "satisfaction" that Ford "finally started using 6 lug wheels on the F150." Ford started in 2004, GM started either in 2004 or 2005, however Dodge has not yet "upgraded" their half ton wheels. I make note of this only to illustrate that many who are critical have not yet realized the upgrades in the entire truck fleet from all manufacturers in recent years. Beliefs die hard, but it's time to stop believing that half ton trucks can't tow fifth wheels safely. Heck.... I can show you fifth wheel trailers (granted several years old) that were specifically designed for the 1/4 ton market. They weigh in at 2500-4000 lbs with pin weights of 500-800 lbs. The current half ton series fifth wheels are perfectly safe being towed by a "properly equipped half ton". Just as dangerous is the statement, "any 3/4 ton can tow a fifth wheel." There are fifth wheels in the 20,000 lb range that are only safely towed by F450/550 series trucks, and then ONLY if they are properly equipped. One can overload a 3/4 ton just as easily as a half ton.
It's been my observation that sometimes we think "bigger is better” but it's not always true. Only in America do we think it takes a 747 to transport one person on a trip. Other places don't always feel that way. If you travel to Europe, you'll see Mercedes 240 Station Wagons towing 5 meter trailers, Peugeot 3L 9 passenger wagons towing 4.5 meter trailers. It's not unusual to see motorhomes with 2.4L diesel engines.

While I'd agree with you that some people may be "overloaded" with their half ton rig, I'd also state that there are many more that are well within their rig specifications. Assuming that all (or nearly all) half tons are unsafe because they are overloaded is akin to saying "any 3/4 ton truck can tow any fifth wheel" the same rules of overloading apply to all trucks, not just half tons and there are overloaded trucks with all kinds of "badges on the fender" not just half tons.

[fla-gypsy]

1/2 ton towable is a marketing ploy and means nothing. Go with trailer GVWR for a better idea of what you are looking at.

[bkrhoades]

Just be careful, when loading up camping supplies, dishes, food, clothes, occupants, ect, your towing weight rises pretty quickly! I've never heard of having too much truck!!!

[TrailBlazer]

nissan pathfinders have a 6 bolt lug....my ram 1500 only has five.....so is it built stronger and be more able to tow? Just sayin.

[bkrhoades]

Originally Posted by TrailBlazer

nissan pathfinders have a 6 bolt lug....my ram 1500 only has five.....so is it built stronger and be more able to tow? Just sayin.

Not to knock anyone, but the Ram 1500 has the weakest underpinnings of any half ton made today. Thats why they ride the most car like. Their brakes, shocks, rearends, and front ends are designed that way for a more plush ride. a car with a trucks body, it's an over simplified explanation, but you can Google it. Their hauling and pulling rates dont really compare to other half tons on the market.

[SteveC7010]

Originally Posted by TrailBlazer

nissan pathfinders have a 6 bolt lug....my ram 1500 only has five.....so is it built stronger and be more able to tow? Just sayin.

Very, very unlikely. The truck probably has thicker, stronger bolts where the Pathfinder will have thinner, weaker ones. Like most small SUV's, the manufacturers do cosmetic things to make their products appear more than they are.

The Pathfinder and most other smaller SUV's have very limited payload and axle ratings. They're not built to tow large trailers of any kind, and they certainly are not built to carry even the loads that you'd toss in a 1/2 ton without a thought.

[x96mnn]

BK...when I goggle it I can only find ford guys saying dodge is weak and dodge guys saying ford is weak and chev guys saying they are both weak

The only actual thing I have ever found for real is all brands broke down on the side of the road at one time or another. . My personal opinion is lighter, tighter, tougher and better engineering is going to win the battle and bigger does not mean better.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Only in America do we think it takes a 747 to transport one person on a trip. Other places don't always feel that way. If you travel to Europe, you'll see Mercedes 240 Station Wagons towing 5 meter trailers, Peugeot 3L 9 passenger wagons towing 4.5 meter trailers. It's not unusual to see motorhomes with 2.4L diesel engines.

Good post Jr, however I cannot see a comparison between NA and Euro RV's the RV's in Europe are far lighter then the NA RV's. The difference in construction is nothing at all like NA.

I was posted to Europe for 3 years in the 80's and my In-Laws were RV'ers there and the trailer they had was just basically a utility trailer with sidewalls and a roof. It was around 20 some feet long and they towed it with a late 70's Ford Fairmont.

[Badboy]

We have a Cougar 31 RKS and tow it with a 2008 Chevy Tahoe,do not put water in it till we get where we are going,pull it to South Haven,Mi.so far no problems

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Rusty

Good post Jr, however I cannot see a comparison between NA and Euro RV's the RV's in Europe are far lighter then the NA RV's. The difference in construction is nothing at all like NA.

I was posted to Europe for 3 years in the 80's and my In-Laws were RV'ers there and the trailer they had was just basically a utility trailer with sidewalls and a roof. It was around 20 some feet long and they towed it with a late 70's Ford Fairmont.

Rusty,

The reason I mentioned "mindset" of European RVing was to illustrate the point that it isn't mandatory to purchase a vehicle with 500 HP and 800 ftlbs of torque to tow an appropriately sized fifth wheel RV. Many of us in America tend to want to get to the top of the mountain at full speed without downshifting, otherwise we're "underpowered." In Europe, they tow with much smaller engines, and they don't feel "inadequate" if they have to downshift to 3rd or even 2nd gear and climb the mountain at 30MPH. It's all a matter of perspective, and I'm not one who believes it takes the proverbial "bull" to "finess" an RV to the top. There are many different opinions, pretty much the thrust of all my comments here have been that we, dont all have to drive the biggest or most powerful to manage a load. Towing a fifth wheel with a half ton truck is perfectly safe, as long as one calculates what's needed and stays with a closely matched tow vehicle and RV. Doing so is perfectly safe, one doesn't necessarily need to "overkill" on everything to be "adequate" or "safe."

Oh and it might be interesting to do some research on New Zeland and Australian RVing. They are importing the Springdale 242 fifth wheel (the same model I have) and are towing it with the Ford (world model) Ranger. That truck is sized between the US model Ranger and the F150. Tow ratings are comparable to the Ford F150 standard tow package (9700 lbs) and payload similar to the 7200-7700 lb GVW of our F150. To my knowledge, they don't even have an option to buy a 3/4 ton or 1 ton gas or diesel model. Yet they manage to tow quite well within the limits of their truck's capability when matched to an appropriately sized RV.

My point through all of this has simply been that it's no longer appropriate to tell an RVer who owns a safely matched rig or to advise a prospective owner that a half ton truck "CAN'T" tow a fifth wheel safely. It not only can be done, it's being done throughout the country by numerous very satisfied RVers. The key, in my opinion, is simply to match the RV to the truck and stay within capabilities.

[Rusty]

Okay got you Jr.

That is one of the reasons why we went for a 3500!

[SkiSmuggs]

And the reason I went for an F150 EcoBoost with Max Tow.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by Rusty

Okay got you Jr.

That is one of the reasons why we went for a 3500!

Originally Posted by SkiSmuggs

And the reason I went for an F150 EcoBoost with Max Tow.

I run our 01 Ram 2500 Cummins with a Power Puck! We travel way too many two lane roads with hills and limited passing lanes.
We can hold the speed limit in a 7% grade which keeps the drivers behind us somewhat happy.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

I run our 01 Ram 2500 Cummins with a Power Puck! We travel way too many two lane roads with hills and limited passing lanes.
We can hold the speed limit in a 7% grade which keeps the drivers behind us somewhat happy.

Mine is bone stock save for the K & N Air Filter, we have little problems pulling up some of those hills whereas I have buddies who complain about their TV while pulling up an easy 3 % grade!!!!!

[davidjsimons]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

I run our 01 Ram 2500 Cummins with a Power Puck! We travel way too many two lane roads with hills and limited passing lanes.
We can hold the speed limit in a 7% grade which keeps the drivers behind us somewhat happy.

Be careful on some of those 7% grades with that much power unless you have a boost gauge and a pyrometer. The engine most likely produces about 28 psi stock and will slam the boost gauge past 35 psi with the programmer. This is real hard on head bolts and the inner cooler. I'm not saying that it won't last, I drove my last truck 330,000 miles set up hot as a firecracker, just be mindful of the EGT's and the boost pressure.


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[RedOne]

No problems with my combo running on any of the roads we have been on so far.

The whole rig runs very nice...and keeps speed up on any hills we go up... Smokey Mountains and Ozarks so far.

[JRTJH]

Pulled the mountains in West Virginia, Kentucky and Ohio in 5th gear at 65MPH last summer with trans temp staying rock steady, engine temp never moved and A/C was on the whole time. I'm satisfied, gets me where I want to go. Sort of like the scooter commercial... "Hoveround takes me where I want to go..."