What's involved with converting to Residential Toilet

[RickV]

My MIL is 86 and she lives about 10 miles from us. We would like to get her to sell her place and buy her a nice residential trailer and put it in our property in the Pole Barn so she is nearby if anything happens to her. The problem is we are gone every year for about 5 months RVing so I will not be here all the time to drain the waste tanks and my MIL would have issues draining waste tanks. I would like to get some info on possibly converting a unit to use a residential toilet and just having it drain directly in to my septic system if that can be done.

[German Shepherd Guy]

Problem I see with that. You would have to somehow by-pass the black water holding tank. Not that it cannot be done but you would not be able to have it go thru the tank. The dreaded "pyramid" would develop quickly if you did. I have my trailer set to go into my septic but I empty the tank as needed. Seems like it might be cheaper to just build her a small space/cabin. Ingress and egress out of an RV might also prove problematic.
JMO

[drrelli]

The infamous FEMA trailers in the New Orleans area after hurricane Katrina mostly included residential toilets and were directly (well, kinda…they had really long runs of sewer pipe above ground) plumbed into the sewers. I assume the vast majority of these were built that way, without holding tanks, but am not certain. I also wonder if there is some internet ‘memory’ of how these were set up from back in 2005-2006. Might give you some insight on how to consider doing this.

[flybouy]

You would need to remove all the waste holding tanks, replace the toilet with a residential one, then connect all the drain lines to a common 3" "leave out" to the sewer system. That doesn't solve the ingress/egress issue. Another potential issue is air circulation inside a pole barn. You have to not only consider air for the air-conditioning but God forbid she uses the gas for the water heater or the furnace. It would be like running a car in a garage.

[JRTJH]

There are entire subdivisions of "small to smaller mobile homes" in communities all over Florida. They range from 8' wide and 35' long all the way up to 2000 sqft double/triple wide mobile homes.

You might make your "search for housing" more beneficial by looking at a "all electric small mobile home" that can be parked in the pole barn and connected to sewer outside the pole barn. That way you'd have a "real residential structure" that would not have the problems associated with gas appliances, holding tanks and ingress/egress. You could simply build a platform at the front door with steps/ramp for access.

But, I'd ask, "why inside a pole barn?"..... Seems it would be much nicer not to be "in a cave while at home" and with a small mobile home, designed with 4" or 6" walls and dual pane windows, she would be much more comfortable as well as the utilities would be significantly cheaper.....

Not to mention, she'd not be tasked with hauling those 30 pound propane tanks back and forth to get them refilled when they run out of propane and she'd not have any issues with "dry batteries" from not checking the water level.....

Oh, and if parked inside a pole barn, any sewer vent is going to add to the "aroma" inside the barn......

I'd recommend checking out "small mobile homes" over an RV..... Probably much cheaper to buy as well as to maintain.

[sourdough]

I'm with those that suggest getting some kind of mobile home etc. meant for full time living vs an RV that is actually meant to be mobile and moving around all the time. The RV comes with way too many "problems", ie; working parts that the owner/person living in it has to take care of constantly to operate properly - holding tanks and dumping, LP tanks and refilling, SO many little parts that can and will fail. It would make more sense to get something meant to be immobile with permanent connections vs buying something meant to be mobile but try to make it immobile.

I've dealt with an 86 year old MIL trying to live alone and replacing LP tanks, pulling holding tank handles, trouble shooting the misc failures that happen on an RV aren't going to work for her....or you. Also think about the fact that this situation is going to be very temporary. Unless something very unusual takes place she isn't going to be self sufficient in a space like that for too many years.

[govols380]

There might still be some park models that don't even have tanks...just designed for fully plumbed hook up with only threaded fittings.

[dutchmensport]

As stated above, what you are wanting to do will work better with a park model RV. There are several bands of RV that offer park models. I did a simple quick Google search and my first good hit was Forest River. Here's a link to their site: Click here. Looking at the floor plans, the park model DOES have residential toilets. Most likely, you have do the plumbing under the trailer to connect the sewer lines for bathroom and kitchen directly to a sewer connection (or septic tank connection). Park models do not come with holding tanks.

Swapping out a conventional RV toilet for a residential is easy enough. But, removing, or by-passing the black water holding tank is another matter. Same with the kitchen sink tank too.

[flybouy]

Is there a reason for not considering adding a room to your house or having the trailer ser outside? I wouldn't want anyone staying in a trailer that's inside a barn. If the barn catches fire then entrapment is a real possibility. If it's set up outside then a deck could be built adjacent to the trailer door that would provide "an area of rescue" where the occupant could wait for someone to come to their aid.

[RickV]

In response to just get a small mobile home, we live in a Rural Neighborhood on 4.5 acres but, there are deed restrictions "No Mobile Homes" is a part of it, RV's are OK as they are not viewed as a permanent structure. As for adding a room that's not an issue but, neither her or us want to have her living in our house she wants her privacy and so do we. When I refer to a "Pole Barn" it is open all the way around so airflow is not an issue .👇🏻👇🏻👇🏻

[TXiceman]

Rick, I would still go with a Park Model RV over a conventional travel trailer. I believe it would still qualify as an RV and not a mobile home.

Ken

[dutchmensport]

Just for the "what it's worth" column .... "Destination Trailers" have RV toilets and holding tanks. "Park Models" have residential toilets and no holding tanks. Destination Trailers "look" more like a conventional travel trailer. Park Models "look" more like a house and are usually skirted to cover the wheels (or wheels are removed).

If attempting to do "stealth camping" on your property, under that pole barn (I call that a car port, or since it's tall enough,.... it could be called an RV port) a park model will probably be too tall and if it fits, it would resemble a house under there. Zoning might not like that too well.

OK, so I think you might be better off with a traditional RV. In your case, (if it were me), I would not purchase a new RV (trailer, fifth wheel), but get a good used one. Then do the work to remove the tanks and the plumbing. It will be some major reconstruction under the trailer. You'll need to remove the underbelly, remove the toilets, remove the existing plumbing, and then just re-install everything like it would be done inside a stick n brick house. Except you are working outside, under the floor and refabricating the drain pipes.

I have no clue about insulating your drain pipes for freezing weather. I see you are in Florida, so that may be an issue, and it may not, depending on level of comfort for cold weather there. You'll want to enclose the underbelly again. Chances are, if you get an older camper with the nylon tarp underbelly, you'll want to re-insulate under the floor and possibly, just replace the underbelly with 1/4 inch tick plywood, or aluminum sheets, or something else. That may be easier than trying to replace the nylon tarp. If your underbelly in Coloplast, you might be able to remove it without damaging it. You'll still want to add new insulation under the floor when you are done.

Personally, it's a lot of work in my opinion. But, as in the Army for PT the old expression was, "No pain, no gain!" The best appreciated things in life are those things that never come easy. It's all a matter of how much work you are willing to invest in it.

Also, if you remove the tanks and re-fabricate the plumbing, the camper will loose what little value it has left. Reselling it (if the MIL dies) and you want to get rid of it, will be a tougher challenge and the purchasing audience will be much slimmer because of the unique modifications. But, on the other hand, you could keep it forever too, and continue using it for a second bed room too!

But that is something you need to consider seriously before making the modifications of removing the toilet and tanks. What happens (when or if) you eventually want to get rid of the camper?

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by RickV

In response to just get a small mobile home, we live in a Rural Neighborhood on 4.5 acres but, there are deed restrictions "No Mobile Homes" is a part of it, RV's are OK as they are not viewed as a permanent structure. As for adding a room that's not an issue but, neither her or us want to have her living in our house she wants her privacy and so do we. When I refer to a "Pole Barn" it is open all the way around so airflow is not an issue .👇🏻👇🏻👇🏻

I don't know how vigilant your neighbors are or how well they like you but; I'm thinking once you pull the holding tanks and hard plumb everything in you have gone from a mobile RV to a fixed mobile home. Depending on how they interpret that, and who wants to push, it may have to come out. I'll relate a little tale; a fellow decided to move into our neighborhood and build a house. We don't have an HOA but we have deed restrictions some being all brick, at least 2k sq.ft. and site built. He bought the land, poured the foundation and....had them bring in a modular home to erect on the foundation. They had just got started and bam, the work stopped and the next thing I knew the modular home parts were gone and the foundation scrapped. The neighbor across the street had built a nice new house and was the nephew of the original owners of the property (who had sold to this individual). He complained about the failure to follow the restrictions and the potential homeowner had to abort. He was NOT happy.

All that to point out the potential downfall to modifying an RV from an RV to a fixed RV. If you can get a timetable down on the dump procedure and don't mind doing it while there it may be much easier to instruct her to use LOTS of water while you are gone and leave the valves open. Put a dip in the sewer hose to keep the gnats out. When you get back do a thorough clean out of the holding tanks and sewer hose. I'd use a wand on the black tank. At her age you won't be doing this many times and she will either have to be in assisted care, living with you or gone. With that in mind also think about what you want to do with the unit, and the space it occupies, when that time comes. That 2nd bedroom? Sell it? I wouldn't modify something to the point the only place it could go when she was gone was to the landfill.

[Badbart56]

Look at getting a "Tiny Home". Some are stupid expensive but then some are pretty reasonable. I saw one listed in Tallahassee on Facebook Marketplace yesterday for $18,000, land included.

[notanlines]

Rick, let me take this conversation a little different direction. You're telling us you want to take an 86 year old woman and transplant her to "a residential trailer on our property in the pole barn." I'm not certain that most of us over the age of 60 might consider that living the dream. I think I see what you are trying to do, but I don't think you've gotten to the proper solution yet.

[dutchmensport]

If I can jump on notanlines comment above?

How does your MIL feel about moving from her home to living under your roof. Even if she is not directly under your roof (in the RV) she is still under your direct care and supervision and will be giving up her home.

My mother lived to be 95 years old. From the time she was around 70 (my dad died in 1984 at the age of 58) my sister and I, both of us tried to persuade her to sell her property and move into assisted living. Or, come live with either of us.

She was hell-bent on remaining on her own property (It was an acre and 1 half, a house with a full basement, in the country, and she never, ever had a drivers license, living alone). She absolutely would not leave the property.

We tried everything, even encouraging her to put one of us kids on her deed to protect her assets. She had no part of it.

By the time she was about 88-89, she starterd exhibiting signs of dementia. But the doctors were not willing to sign off on her not have enough mental capacity that she could not take care of herself. It was a battle with doctors and her.

When she turned 91... you guess it.... she fell in her basement and laid on the concrete floor for several hours before someone found her. Got her to the hospital and she was laid up (under Medicare) for the next 100 days. She returned home, abused the rod they put her completely busted up leg, and about a year later had to have the surgery completely redone, laying her up another 100 days in a nursing home.

She still insisted on returning to her home alone. The crazy fool did some pretty incredible stupid things, until one day, a neighbor checked on her, found her sitting in a laundry basket in the living room, screaming her head off, a lap broken, her (very old) record player console tipped over, the television tipped over, things broken everywhere, and the place in shambles. She had some kind of episode, out of her mind, and too week to get out of that laundry basket where she fell.

We were camping in Alabama at the time (she lived in Indiana) and we got a phone call from the hospital and stated that she could not go home any more, what nursing home did we want to put her in.

Fortunately, I was able to persuade her to let me be her power of attorney while she still had some mind left. But, it was restrictive, based only on a doctor's approval that she was incompetent to administer her own welfare.

They had to get a doctor's sign off on that first, and then I told them what nursing home she should go to, that Medicare / and Medicaid would cover.

For the next 2 years I battled Medicaid. I had to sell her house and dwindle down her "assets". Everything went to the nursing home. She still had too much money left over. At the age of 95, and after giving the nursing home thousands upon thousands of dollars from the sale of her house, her assets finally dwindled down to less than $2000 and I was able to FINALLY get her qualified for Medicaid. But she was also moved to a shared room in the nursing home, and everything changed.

I got her on Medicaid, and 2 weeks later she died!

She lost the house she so dearly tried to hang on to, and because we knew she would never leave the nursing home alive, and she did make comments about paying for everything, we simply told her Medicare was covering everything and we never told her we had to sell the house. She was out of her mind anyway.

So you know, you might have really, really good intentions for the care of your MIL, but is this what she "really" wants?

[sourdough]

Rick just to add a bit to what Dutchmen said;

Out of both sets of our parents 2 have died fairly young (FIL-64, DM-71) both from smoking complications. The other 2 lived longer (MIL-91, DD-87). Both of the ones that lived the longest had to have interventions by me because they both wanted to live "in their house" regardless. That's impossible as one gets so old they cannot bath themselves, drive, get dementia etc. I lived 4 hours from my dad and he would have nothing to do with leaving his house until I started getting calls that he was sleeping on the side of the road in the truck because he didn't know where his house was; he had unexplained damage on the truck where he sideswiped something but had no clue; had neighbors check on him and he was in his underwear sweating (summer) because he forgot how to work the thermostat and had it on max heat; wrote instructions on how to make coffee but he couldn't do it....just made coffee mixed with water into a mud consistency...the list is endless. MIL got a stomach blockage at 87 and it went downhill from there. Both ended up in nursing homes and they aren't cheap. I didn't sell either home until they passed away although I had both deeds in my name.

All that to point out that whether living beside you or 10 miles away things will change most likely so be prepared for that and factor it in on this decision. I don't know what kind of insurance you carry on her but dutchmen brought up a good point. If she does have to move into assisted care you either pay for it, pay the Medicare copay or pay for it out of pocket - not cheap. To get Medicaid, which it seemed every facility expected one to have, you have to spend down your assets basically getting rid of everything they owned which is a painful thing to do for them so I didn't. You might look into Medicare Advantage plans as you look to those days. There was a HUGE difference between the MIL Advantage plan coverage for assisted care and that allowed by Medicare for my dad.

[wiredgeorge]

RickV, if you feel that the situation you proposed is the right one for you, do what you think is best as I am sure you will anyway. I would be nervous about leaving the property for months on end but it isn't that big a deal to remove the tanks on an RV and hard plumb into a sewer.

[PolarisCobra]

We are getting off track here, but here goes.

Laws vary from state to state, so you need to check for yourself. A Family Trust can help save the assets a person has, and protect them from a Nursing home taking them. In mu state, it needs to be set up a minimum if 5 years before you need it (this may be federal, I am not sure).

Best to contact a lawyer who deals with elder law, and see what can be done. There are ways to protect assets. This has nothing to do with the hard decisions around when an older family member is no longer safe on their own, that can be the hard part.

A properly set up Trust can insure that property does not have to be sold to finance a nursing home, and can greatly simplify the process of selling the property when the time comes. Trusts are not just for 'rich' people, many elder law firms offer seminars where you can learn about your options, and choose a firm that you would like to work with.

[curtiscapk]

Originally Posted by PolarisCobra

We are getting off track here, but here goes.

Laws vary from state to state, so you need to check for yourself. A Family Trust can help save the assets a person has, and protect them from a Nursing home taking them. In mu state, it needs to be set up a minimum if 5 years before you need it (this may be federal, I am not sure).

Best to contact a lawyer who deals with elder law, and see what can be done. There are ways to protect assets. This has nothing to do with the hard decisions around when an older family member is no longer safe on their own, that can be the hard part.

A properly set up Trust can insure that property does not have to be sold to finance a nursing home, and can greatly simplify the process of selling the property when the time comes. Trusts are not just for 'rich' people, many elder law firms offer seminars where you can learn about your options, and choose a firm that you would like to work with.

I just did all this with my In-laws 5 years ago. It was painful! If you aren't prepared for it it's costly the ended up having to pay the nursing home for 2 years out of pocket 15K a month for both to share a room. Medicaid does go back 5 years and deducts ANY monetary gifts over 100 dollars and they get penalized that amount. The wife and SiL ended up getting the house money. Which was WAY less than the 300K the nursing home got. Plan accordingly earlier the better. We did use an elder law firm for help. they are still in the same nursing home and get to keep 60 bucks a month each from medicaid. Everything else is paid for.

Be prepared it isn't easy!