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Old 09-17-2018, 05:32 PM   #1
AdamKY
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Newbie question on Holding Tank Heaters —Cougar 33RBI

I recently purchased my first Travel trailer—a 2016 Keystone Cougar 33RBI. I work about 100 miles from home and had been renting an apartment to stay at a few days a week and decided to buy a TT and keep at a campground there instead, and then have a TT to take the family on vacation in. The only issue is that I am in central Kentucky so we do see temps in the 20’s and occasionally teens and single digits. I will be at a site with full hookups but want to avoid frozen pipes/tanks. It does have the polar package (heated underbelly) but I wanted to add heaters to tanks. It appears I have 1 freshwater, 2 grays and 1 black water tank. Does anyone know where I can find the tanks’ dimensions (length/width) so I can order tank heating pads the right size. Trying to avoid having to take panels underneath off to see tanks until I’m ready to install. Also, open to any other suggestions you might have about keeping functional during winter.

Also, I did notice a few softer spots in the floor, both around floor vents. Is it normal to have more flex in floors around these vents, or should I be concerned there was water damage in the past?

Thanks in advance and love the forum—used it plenty so far in first few weeks of ownership.
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Old 09-17-2018, 05:45 PM   #2
KeithInUpstateNY
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Congratulations on the trailer.

I can't answer your tank size question, but check out https://redirect.viglink.com/?format...arm%20Together!

"The BEST source of advice for surviving cold weather in an RV." according to RV Inspirations.

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Old 09-17-2018, 07:29 PM   #3
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We don't have tank heaters, and I know they haven't been around that long, but we have survived temps into the single digits and never had a worry about frozen tanks. I would be more concerned with a heated fresh water hose, and having an adequate source of propane. Besides the fresh and waste tanks, you also must consider the plumbing in the same space as the tanks, that it doesn't freeze too. We use the furnace, as on ours, it has ducting into the area below the floor and seemed to work well keeping things above freezing. You probably don't have to worry about surrounding the area below the rig with foam panels, as you will not be in the arctic. Good luck with your winter adventure.
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Old 09-18-2018, 01:16 AM   #4
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Thanks, that is good info to have. II also have ducting into the underbelly. I explained to the salesman my situation and that I was looking for something that could be used four seasons and I specifically chose this one because it has the “polar package” which is heated/insulated underbelly. The salesperson said it should be sufficient. It was only at delivery the service technician said I would need tank heaters if I planned on using year round in our climate. So one of the two really wanted to sell me something.

Agree on making sure I have adequate propane and plan on getting heated supply hose. Anyone have experience with these remote LP tank sensors? https://www.pplmotorhomes.com/parts/...xoCom8QAvD_BwE

Would be nice to be able to monitor remotely since I’ll only be staying there a day or two each week. Part of reason I was open to tank heaters was in case LP ran dry while I was away—belt and suspenders.
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Old 09-18-2018, 02:22 AM   #5
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This will be quite the learning experience for you. We spotted you as a newby when you uttered the phrase "The salesperson said it should be sufficient."
My recommendation would be to tandem a couple 100 pound bottles of propane your first year until you see how much propane this beast will consume. They can be rented all over Kentucky at any propane supply company. Secondly, you might benefit by an electric heater with a thermostat located in the underbelly to insure a continued supply of heat to keep everything from freezing. Maybe a day spent underpinning the RV would help also. Let us know how you come out.
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Old 09-18-2018, 07:11 AM   #6
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If you are only going to be there a couple of days a week I wouldn't bother with running water or using the holding tanks. There is too big a likelihood that something will go wrong when you aren't there.

Back in the early 90s my first camper was in a campground we could use in the winter for snowmobiling. Everyone winterized in the fall and used the campground bathrooms in the winter. Bring fresh water with you for drinking, cooking, dishes, etc. 5 gallons is plenty for one person for a couple of days. A plastic dishpan keeps the water from going down the drain.

Good luck, keep us posted.
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Old 09-18-2018, 08:30 AM   #7
Local150
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I put a small elec. heater in the storage area under my 5er. Had a heated water supply hose, and kept the furnace set at 75,, never had a issue and had 3 nights in a row in single digits,, oh ya had the elec. heater near the area where all water lines seem to come together
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Old 09-18-2018, 08:33 AM   #8
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Oh ya one night was near zero and windy,, layed in bed and timed the furnance,, kicked on every 2 minutes,, 30 lbs of lp lasted 3 days
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Old 09-18-2018, 02:04 PM   #9
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Oh ya one night was near zero and windy,, layed in bed and timed the furnance,, kicked on every 2 minutes,, 30 lbs of lp lasted 3 days

^^^^This could be a major problem for you. Depending on the temp you leave it set at you can go thru your propane in a hurry if it's pretty cold and windy. Being there only a couple of days a week presents several problems but most have been addressed in previous posts. Don't leave any water on or in things if you aren't there to oversee the situation.

I worked out of my trailer years ago and encountered something not mentioned yet; frozen LP tanks. I worked out all day and the days were very cold for here (about 0-5 degrees) with snow on the ground. I returned to no heat and no propane. Found the LP tanks were frozen; something I had never encountered and never have again. Had to wrap freezer tape around the tanks to keep them warm enough so they wouldn't freeze.
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Old 09-18-2018, 02:08 PM   #10
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I'm here to give a boost to Sourdough's mention of frozen tanks. We bought a tank blanket for about $90 to wrap around the tank. Once burned, twice shy.
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Old 09-18-2018, 03:52 PM   #11
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Aside from burst pipes and tanks, if you lose heat while you aren't there, the biggest threat to you and your family's long term enjoyment of your trailer is probably snow load. RV ceilings just can't be insulted well enough to prevent a freeze/thaw cycle on the roof if snow is allowed to accumulate when the camper is heated. Seams are quickly compromised and water damage can happen quickly. It's another advantage of leaving the camper unheated when you aren't there. It's tedious, but you can use a ladder and push broom to carefully remove most of the snow before you turn the heat on.

Those of us who used our campers on a regular basis in the winter had them under some kind of shelter. Long term seasonal campers had their trailers under permanent carport like structures with sloped roofs. I knew I was only going to be there a couple more seasons (I was looking for property to build a small cabin) so with the permission of the campground owner I built a greenhouse like arched frame from PVC pipe that I covered with tarps that I could disassemble and take with me when I left. Everyone was skeptical, but it held up to two winters of Adirondack Mountain snow loads.
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Old 09-18-2018, 05:54 PM   #12
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Further to sourdough's reply when I was with Parks Canada back in the late 80s we did an experiment with propane as a fuel for the light duty trucks in Jasper National Park Alberta.
Needles to say it was a disaster. At the ambient temps of this area during winter the propane liquefied. We had to run the propane through the reculating engine heaters before the vaporizers in order for the trucks to start.
I was the Regional Service Manager for Western Canada at the time and (read a cluster ***k gone wrong).
I rest my case with using propane as a fuel in very low temps without some sort of heating assistance to keep it in a gaseous state. YMMV
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Old 09-19-2018, 03:58 AM   #13
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Two things I've experience with RV-type propane systems in very cold weather:

One actually happened when I was young and our family had a 1977 Sportscoach motor home. The coach probably wasn't a year old at the time. We were camped in northern Idaho while my parents were looking at real estate with the idea that we might move up there. One night was particularly cold, and my dad noticed the furnace wasn't working correctly and it was darned cold inside. He went to turn on a burner to the stove and a blow torch shot out of that burner so fiery it scorched the hair on his arms, eyebrows, front of the hair on his head, and the cabinet above the stove.

In a panic, he burned up a t-shirt smothering the fire and then shut the gas off.

Motel Time!

Turned out the propane regulator had frozen and somehow stuck open..it wasn't regulating anymore. Full pressure to all the appliances. Apparently the safety devices on all the appliances shut them off just as they were supposed to, but the stove had no such thing.

The other situation happened to me about 8-10 years ago here in New Mexico. It was a particularly unusual bitter cold week..around 20 below for a few nights, with "high" temps of maybe 20 above. My then young sons and i were at our off-the-grid backcountry place that's heated by a wood stove and a propane wall heater. We also use an old 1940's Servel propane fridge out there. I woke up at night and noticed the flame on the wall heater was unusually low. I also noticed in the dead quiet of night that the Servel (Advertised since the 1930's as "Silent" ) was making a funny hissing/roaring noise, coming from the burner underneath. Again, it was pretty chilly inside! I was running off a hundred pound tank and thought maybe it was low/close to empty, so after getting the fire in the wood stove blazing, I went out to the shed, got another tank, installed it, and tried to light everything up. Everything still acted wonky, and the flame on the wall heater was still unusually low. In this case, the flame on the stove burner was very low as well. Trying to figure out what was up, the only thing left was my memory of that regulator acting up in the Sportscoach decades earlier. I had one of those long-nosed bic lighter things and went out there and warmed up the regulator with the little flame from it, and voilŕ, everything running off gas inside started working correctly again! We don't often leave stuff on out there when we go home, because we might not be back for a month or more, so having it fail was not a huge issue as long as I knew how to correct it.

Next trip out there, I replaced the regulator, and I've never had another problem with it..but we've also never seen weather THAT cold since, either.

Only thing I can say about unattended propane systems: Make CERTAIN everything is functioning correctly (and the regulator seems to be the "weak link"), if you intend to count on the propane system to keep your place thawed for days at a time while you are gone.
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Old 09-19-2018, 11:58 AM   #14
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Polar Package is a marketing ploy. I found nothing but foil lined bubble wrap in my undercarriage. Shirting, and heater is your best bet.
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Old 09-19-2018, 02:02 PM   #15
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Just as a warning, a couple posts back you may have noted this sentence "I had one of those long-nosed Bic lighter things and went out there and warmed up the regulator with the little flame from it." We have all done stupid things; I'm way up towards the top of the list. But a Bic lighter is a good way to get the undertaker on speed-dial when used to warmup a propane regulator. And no, this is NOT YMMV.
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Old 09-19-2018, 05:02 PM   #16
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Just as a warning, a couple posts back you may have noted this sentence "I had one of those long-nosed Bic lighter things and went out there and warmed up the regulator with the little flame from it." We have all done stupid things; I'm way up towards the top of the list. But a Bic lighter is a good way to get the undertaker on speed-dial when used to warmup a propane regulator. And no, this is NOT YMMV.
Perhaps I should clarify: I would NEVER suggest ANYONE do such a thing. But when it's 2AM, it's 20 below zero, it's an hour to the nearest town on Jeep trails through snow and ice, and one is off the grid and doesn't have the juice to run a blow dryer (so there isn't one out there anyway), one does what one can.

Wait till I tell the story about tipping the outhouse off the pit underneath so I could get at the rattlesnake under there with a 12 gauge.

Or the one where we were stalked by a mountain lion while cutting firewood.

It's a whole different life out there in the New Mexico back-country. And I love it!
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Old 09-19-2018, 05:56 PM   #17
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There is an old Arab story about a young man who one day was riding on his donkey. He came upon a sparrow lying on its back in the road. The tiny creatures had two tiny legs pointing skyward.

At first the young man thought the sparrow was dead. But then he saw the bird move. The young man dismounted, went to the tiny creature, and asked, "Are you alright?"

"Yes," the sparrow answered. "Then what are you doing lying on your back with your legs pointing to the sky?" asked the young man.

"Haven't you heard?" asked the sparrow. "Soon heaven is going come crashing down to earth.."

"If it does" responded the Arab young man, "surely you do not think you are going to protect our world with those two scrawny legs."

The sparrow looked at him with a solemn face for a moment and then retorted, "One does what one can."

No harm, no foul.
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Old 09-20-2018, 08:54 PM   #18
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Had to wrap freezer tape around the tanks to keep them warm enough so they wouldn't freeze.

wrapped with freezer tape? Do you mean electric freeze prevention tape usually used for pipes? I'm wondering how to keep the tanks from freezing on our January trip to MD as I ran into this problem last Jan. Was thinking about hanging a trouble light in the tank compartment but not sure how safe this would be.
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Old 09-21-2018, 01:24 AM   #19
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Mustanger, do a search on Amazon for "WarmGuard WG20 Insulated Band Style Gas Cylinder Warmer - Propane Heater, Fits 20, 30 & 40lb Gas Tanks, Fixed Internal Thermostat Max Temp 90 F" and you'll be in luck. I believe it was $92, shipping included.
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Old 09-21-2018, 07:38 PM   #20
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Mustanger, do a search on Amazon for "WarmGuard WG20 Insulated Band Style Gas Cylinder Warmer - Propane Heater, Fits 20, 30 & 40lb Gas Tanks, Fixed Internal Thermostat Max Temp 90 F" and you'll be in luck. I believe it was $92, shipping included.
Thanks for the suggestion will have a look see at this.
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