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Old 10-30-2018, 03:48 PM   #21
kjohn
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Well, the news is not good. The floor is toast. The dealer did an extensive examination and it appears that water got in from an outside source, permeated nearly the whole floor. We spent an hour there today, only to learn it is NOT on warranty any longer, (purchased new in 2017 as a 2017 model). We used it only during the summer for two seasons. They are certain that the problem did NOT come from within, i.e. sinks, toilet, shower, etc. leaking. No sign whatsoever of interior water damage. The cheezy covering over the wheel wells has little holes in it, and that's likely where the water got in. The trailer hasn't seen 50 miles on gravel.


Keystone doesn't want to do anything, the dealer won't do anything without getting paid. My next step is to see if the trailer insurance will do anything. We can't trade it in, we can't use it, but, for sure, we can pay for it!


I will put in a claim, get a claim number, forward it to the service manager at the dealer. He does favours for a fellow in the insurance company, and will explain everything to him. Luckily, we financed everything except our trade in on long term, so we are out the value of our trade in, plus what we've paid on it. If we tell the bank it's all theirs, our credit will be shot.


I will now have to wait and get the trailer to an inspection place suitable to the insurance company. Bummer, big time!


Take a hint, fellow trailer people, and carefully inspect the material over the wheel wells. The covering on ours looked VERY poor quality.
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Old 10-31-2018, 04:27 AM   #22
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Our 2018 (purchased April 2018) goes in this weekend for extensive investigation as to the cause of its floor failure as documented above. Fortunately ours is only 6 months old (although it was manufactured Nov 2017).

Our service guy thought that maybe road spray could have caused our issue but saw no evidence of this. It seems to me that it would take a lot of road spray and a lot of openings in the Darco to cause that issue.

Sorry to hear this, makes me super concerned about ours.
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Old 10-31-2018, 07:48 AM   #23
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DCARLTON: Please keep us posted on what becomes of your trailer problem. All Cougar owners should be worried. Keystone has done the magic "well, it's not under warranty any longer" with our trailer, even though it is their substandard material that has most likely caused the problem.


I can see that I will likely be the one who has to redo the floor in ours. Not impossible, but not something that will happen in an afternoon either.
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Old 10-31-2018, 08:20 AM   #24
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Darco is used as the "water barrier" in wheelwells on almost all "low to medium priced" trailers. It's not a "Keystone is cheap and doesn't care" issue. All of the manufacturers of towable RV's, THOR, Forest River, Winnebago, DRV all use essentially the same components in manufacturing RV's. Darco is the "industry standard" in the low priced, light weight towable RV product line, essentially "across all brand lines"....

The demand for "light weight towable RV's" by the public has caused all the manufacturers to seek "lighter weight materials" with which to build trailers. Darco is one of those materials. Prior to using Darco, some manufacturers simply sprayed plywood wheelwells with "asphalt based undercoat" while some had galvanized tin wheelwells and some had plastic/fiberglass wheel well liners. As the demand for weight reduction increased, those products simply couldn't stay on the production line.

Building any product is a "compromise" between reliability, quality, price, value, acceptance and a host of other factors. I don't think any manufacturer of an RV is capable of meeting the "highest standards" in every category and offer their product to the market at prices which compete with some of the "junk" that people buy. Currently, AFAIK, there is no product on the market as durable as Darco that meets pricing and weight requirements for use in wheelwells. Simply said, Darco is the best product available for the application.

Four questions to ask yourself:

1. If the Keystone Cougar cost $130,000, would you buy one?
2. What level of "less than perfect in every category" is acceptable and at what price?
3. If the only change made in the Cougar line was improved durability in wheel well construction, would you pay more for it and if so, how much?
4. Once that problem is "solved" what's the next "demand for improvement" and how is it included with no price increase, or is there added cost for it as well. If so, where does this improvement end?

The choice is an affordable "entry level trailer" or a "problem free product" that few of us can afford to buy. There's room for both, but not in the same product or at the same price.
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Old 10-31-2018, 09:29 AM   #25
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We are in 2018 yet looking at some of the materials used to build an RV have gone backwards, not forwards. Sure, make things light. Most of us remember cars were made of steel with steel bumpers, steel body parts and iron engines. Cars today weigh much less and in most cases stand up to the horrible roads they travel down each and every day.

We owned a 1993 Chevy Conversion van which really looked nice. However, I always said, you didn't want to undress it, if you looked behind and underneath all the nice and shiny, what you saw wasn't so pretty.

Looking at our Premier (which leads one to believe it's Premium), looking underneath the clothing can be scary with thin panels secured with 1000's of staples.

Looking at the panels that cover the wardrobe for instance looks like someone stapled the sides on and they were being paid by the staple. No one attempted to cover up the many holes and the workmanship looks bad. On the other hand, small staples/nails are used to secure the ceiling to trusses and as we drive down the road, these small nails work themselves out. In both cases, limited use of glue and nails may have done a better job.

You would think that $30,000 isn't entry level, heck, what does a 10k unit look like? Can it survive more than a couple of years if a 30k unit looks like crap after 2-3 years? Our 2004 Fleetwood seemingly was built to a better standard in many ways even though it too had the crappy wood covered with the wood grain covering that would peel off or get damaged easily.

As for Darco, it's not supposed to let water in and the reverse is true as well, it doesn't let it out if it gets trapped inside - this causes the wood to destroy itself. If it is true that the Darco can become compromised enough to let road spray from the tires into the subfloor, then maybe it's not the proper material for this application.
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Old 10-31-2018, 09:36 AM   #26
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^^^^Well said.
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Old 10-31-2018, 10:39 AM   #27
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Well, I guess we were mistaken thinking a $39,000 retail price tag on this trailer would give us more than 2 summers' use. There is no reasonable excuse for this to be "normal".

A piece of inner tube split and attached over the wheel wells would have worked better than the currently used material.

It will be a very frosty Friday before I knuckle under. I won't take the blame for it.
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Old 10-31-2018, 10:47 AM   #28
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Quote:
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Well, I guess we were mistaken thinking a $39,000 retail price tag on this trailer would give us more than 2 summers' use. There is no reasonable excuse for this to be "normal".

A piece of inner tube split and attached over the wheel wells would have worked better than the currently used material.

It will be a very frosty Friday before I knuckle under. I won't take the blame for it.
I don't blame you. Why should you have to pay for their mistake?
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Old 10-31-2018, 01:18 PM   #29
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(You would think that $30,000 isn't entry level, heck, what does a 10k unit look like?)

Paid $11,500 for mine, Only a awning problem it lost it recoil ,only took them 3 times(over 2 years) to fix it right they finally replaced it with arms(Oh they also somehow bent the arm?), Dealer also damaged siding from falling latter that they replaced and did a better then expected job.

Some other little thing I tweaked out and its holding up GR8
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Old 10-31-2018, 01:28 PM   #30
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it really is something that every time there is a post about a ridiculous issue on a trailer like this
somehow WE are to blame for crappy work and materials

seriously there is no excuse for his floor completely falling apart in 2 years at any price point, why do you guys keep posting blaming owners for these problems

i would have GLADLY paid 10 grand more for my trailer to have it more solid, it was not an option in this front load toy hauler

either way there is no excuse and i will be happy to see mine go in 2 years and buy an older one

i am not drinking the koolaid, there is NO excuse
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Old 10-31-2018, 01:46 PM   #31
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Look at the numbers: How many hundreds of thousands of Keystones are produced every year and how many have "rotted out floors in 2 years???"

Look also at LG TV's, Whirlpool appliances or "take your pick of any item".... How many fail and what's acceptable?

Take the auto industry, years ago it was worse than it is now, but what is the "failure rate of new vehicles" ??? Where is that percentage when compared to Keystone trailers?

I'm not defending bad production techniques, but simply stating that if the acceptable manufacturing failure rate is 3%, then we've not heard anything near that kind of trailers that "fall apart in 2 years"... In fact, Keystone now has a 3 year structural warranty on new trailers, something must be "not falling apart" or they wouldn't have increased the warranty like that.
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Old 10-31-2018, 03:17 PM   #32
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Well, I realize all that you say, so no need to keep pointing that out. I am not that stupid nor narrow minded to think that all Keystone trailers, or all trailers for that matter, are all going to fall apart. Cougar trailers, all models, are one of the best selling trailers. We see scads of them while on our tours.


One of the reasons we bought a Cougar was because of the popularity and sales figures. However, I can't change the fact that our trailer failed miserably way too soon, through no fault of ours. I will not sit by and put up with this.


On a more positive note, I called our insurer to initiate a damage claim. As soon as "water" was mentioned, I was told in no uncertain terms that it would not be covered. Okay. I called the service manager and told him what the insurer said. Oh boy! Two hours later, a call from the insurer, apologies for the first contact, and we proceeded with a statement, etc. Somebody from on high must have shaken somebody's cage, because there was a 180 degree attitude from the insurer.


Now, I'm not going to start holding my breath just yet, but at least they are going to do some research on the situation.


Stay tuned. I will post anything positive.
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Old 11-01-2018, 02:56 AM   #33
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I'm just skeptical by nature so bear me out. I am having a hard time believing that the cause of all the problems was water spray from the tires through the Darco fabric. Just seems like there has to be something else. The darko seems to be low hanging fruit but I don't think I would stop their. Just my thoughts.
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Old 11-01-2018, 07:05 AM   #34
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I agree with ctbruce. Darco is a "standard across all brands" product. It's used on literally millions of RV wheelwells. If it were unsuitable for the purpose and if it had a high failure rate or caused this problem repeatedly, there would be significantly more reports of "rotten floors caused by Darco" than we have seen on this and other forums. There simply aren't that many reports of such a problem.

That's not to say yours isn't (or wasn't) caused by a hole(s) in the Darco, but rather, to say that it's not happening to other trailers in any quantity. If it was a "Darco problem" we'd see a lot more posts complaining of wet, soft, rotten floors because every wheelwell that Keystone produces is covered with Darco.

As Chip said, it's the "low hanging fruit" and easy to blame whether it's the actual cause or not. I would be extremely suspicious of anyone who blames a "leak on the side of a trailer floor" as being the "cause of floor rot in the center of the trailer.... Sort of like blaming "rainwater from an open window" for a wet spot on the carpet in the center of a house while the new puppy sleeps in a dog bed in that same room.
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Old 11-01-2018, 07:24 AM   #35
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I cringe when any term with 'water' comes up regarding damage. As soon as 'water' is mentioned, the manufacturers begin looking at ways to shift the responsibility back to the customer, i.e., no maintenance on items including roofs, seals, etc.
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Old 11-01-2018, 12:44 PM   #36
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On second thought, I won't be posting any further details, good or bad, about any changes to the situation.


As Chip said, it's the "low hanging fruit" and easy to blame whether it's the actual cause or not. I would be extremely suspicious of anyone who blames a "leak on the side of a trailer floor" as being the "cause of floor rot in the center of the trailer.... Sort of like blaming "rainwater from an open window" for a wet spot on the carpet in the center of a house while the new puppy sleeps in a dog bed in that same room.

I don't care for the tone of that statement. The dealer has dug as far as they can into the situation, including taking the membrane away to expose the rotted floor. They have pressured up every line possible and found no leaks. There is absolutely NO SIGN whatsoever of any moisture from inside the cabin.



If anyone wishes to know what is happening, just send me a PM. I'll be happy to update you.
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Old 11-01-2018, 02:23 PM   #37
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kjohn,

While you're not posting the progress of your situation, I'd urge you to at least familiarize yourself with the construction of Keystone's "laminated floor system". I've got a strong suspicion that your dealer is not looking at anything but his "bottom dollar profit margin" when dealing with your trailer repair. I'm not there, I can't confirm any of my suspicions, but if you would take some time to study how the floor is built, I think you'll realize that water on the bottom 1/8" luan can't "wick its way up to the top surface of the 1/4" OSB and "saturate the entire floor" (under the vinyl). There's SIGNIFICANTLY more going on with your trailer than "a few holes in the Darco wheelwell liner" to cause that kind of water saturation. Water doesn't wick from the bottom outside surface and "completely saturate the top layer" in the laminated floors that Keystone builds. Whether there's a problem with the roof, the walls, the wall/floor attachment points, the windows or some other water intrusion point, it's not "rocks on the Darco" that caused this issue. If that's what's being reported to Keystone, I don't blame them for not accepting repair. After all, there's well over a million on the road with exactly the same construction and no requests for repairs for any of them.

Whether the dealership hasn't done a thorough inspection and is speculating on the damage, whether they have only told you "enough to keep you angry at Keystone", whether they've determined they can profit more from you paying for the repairs than from a 'warranty fight" with Keystone over a trailer that's no longer in warranty or whether they believe that they can talk you into trading the trailer on another model and then repairing the trade for a hefty profit are all "possible situations" that haven't been considered in this thread.

Simply put, you're "miffed" because people (mostly me) on a forum aren't playing the sympathy card with you. There are significant problems with some trailers and Keystone should be held accountable for those issues. Your trailer is likely to be one of those that Keystone should step up to the plate and repair. There also, if you look beyond the surface, some dealerships that don't look out for their customers, but rather "devise the best profit return" in dealing with customer problems. We've got hundreds of examples on this forum of dealerships that have taken advantage of customer's lack of knowledge about RV's to "under-report situations" to Keystone, who in turn will not authorize repairs that really should be authorized. We've seen numerous reports of members following up with Keystone to find the dealership either didn't document the problem or in some cases, the dealership "misrepresented the problem" in order to get a refusal from Keystone so they could "upcharge the customer" for repairs.

THIS (note the caps) MAY NOT BE WHAT YOU'RE FACING, but to believe everything the dealership is telling you without question is not in your best interest. Educate yourself in how your floor was constructed, look at the possibility that the top surface could be saturated with water from the bottom of a 3 or 4 layer construction, with the center layer being essentially "non-wicking foam". While anything is possible, it's unlikely that your floor issues derived from "rock damage to the Darco" in the wheelwells. There's something else going on to cause your rotted floors and so far, it doesn't appear that it's being addressed by your dealership.

If you choose not to reply, or no longer to post progress on your trailer problems, that's certainly your prerogative, but in your interest, you really need to know and understand exactly what your dealer is telling you, verify the accuracy of those facts and then followup with Keystone to be sure that everything you're being told is what they're being told and what your dealer tells you is the "factory response" is really what they told the dealership.

There may be nothing unusual going on, then again....... Don't lose perspective of the "big picture" because you're focusing on one comment from me, some other member or the dealer's phone call with bad news.....
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Old 11-01-2018, 03:13 PM   #38
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Please, give us a break with the lectures.
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Old 11-01-2018, 03:57 PM   #39
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You got it. Case closed. Find a solution you can live with and enjoy !!!!!
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Old 11-02-2018, 02:54 AM   #40
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On second thought, I won't be posting any further details, good or bad, about any changes to the situation.


As Chip said, it's the "low hanging fruit" and easy to blame whether it's the actual cause or not. I would be extremely suspicious of anyone who blames a "leak on the side of a trailer floor" as being the "cause of floor rot in the center of the trailer.... Sort of like blaming "rainwater from an open window" for a wet spot on the carpet in the center of a house while the new puppy sleeps in a dog bed in that same room.

I don't care for the tone of that statement. The dealer has dug as far as they can into the situation, including taking the membrane away to expose the rotted floor. They have pressured up every line possible and found no leaks. There is absolutely NO SIGN whatsoever of any moisture from inside the cabin.



If anyone wishes to know what is happening, just send me a PM. I'll be happy to update you.
Well I just wanna say sorry if I upset you. I wasn't trying to. I was just pointing out that it might be something else that's much more serious than the darko. Just something to think about. Good luck on your issues I hope you get them fixed.
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