New-to-fifth wheels question

[prometheus1351]

Hi Everyone - a while back my wife and I decided to get into RV camping with a toy hauler. We found a 2006 Keystone NRG 260fs that has worked great for us. I picked up a 2018 F350 6.7 crew cab short bed to pull her with (the RV, not the wife) and everything has been wonderful so far - didn't think I'd want a fifth wheel and was pretty sure I didn't want a dually.

Lo and behold two years later my wife and I REALLY like the idea of a fifth wheel and I just can't bring myself to take a bath on selling my current truck and buying a dually.

So my questions is - while I understand a dually is ideal for towing stability - is there a consensus on what size 5th wheel is not a terrible idea for a SRW truck?

The trailers I'm looking at are the Shockwave 33FWGDX and 28FWGDX which have a GVWR of 14999 and 14210, respectively. My truck has an available payload of 3400 lbs and from what I've read I should probably assume a hitch weight of 25% of GVWR, or 3750 and 3550; both of which technically makes these trailers not a viable option.

Does anyone have real-life pin weight experience on these trailers or similar trailers? I'm just trying to get a feel for whether I should keep dreaming about a fifth wheel or just face the reality that it's not in our future with this truck (and as I finish writing this I think I answered my own question).

Thanks everyone!

Edit - I just realized I'm asking about a Forest River RV in a keystone forum... Kind of foolish of me. Regardless, any input from your experience is appreciated!

[wiredgeorge]

I prefer a SRW truck due to the fact I would destroy the rear fenders in no time. Parking is a lot easier with a SRW. As far as benefits of a DRW, there are many but I don't need them so will stay with what I have. Your payload is a tad on the puny side for a one ton. Perhaps looking for a SRW without all the geegaws and a long wheel base might give you some room. My old 2006 F350 CC LWB 6.0L has a payload of right at 4K lbs. Plus it was cheap.

That big Forest River hauler you are looking at has a dry weight of less than 10K lbs and almost 5K lbs carrying capacity. That is a LOT of toys! Also 25 percent hitch weight is very conservative. Lower percentages are normally tossed around like 15 percent. You might be OK with what you have as long as you don't put the Queen Mary in the garage!

[prometheus1351]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

I prefer a SRW truck due to the fact I would destroy the rear fenders in no time. Parking is a lot easier with a SRW. As far as benefits of a DRW, there are many but I don't need them so will stay with what I have. Your payload is a tad on the puny side for a one ton. Perhaps looking for a SRW without all the geegaws and a long wheel base might give you some room. My old 2006 F350 CC LWB 6.0L has a payload of right at 4K lbs. Plus it was cheap.

That big Forest River hauler you are looking at has a dry weight of less than 10K lbs and almost 5K lbs carrying capacity. That is a LOT of toys! Also 25 percent hitch weight is very conservative. Lower percentages are normally tossed around like 15 percent. You might be OK with what you have as long as you don't put the Queen Mary in the garage!

Thanks George, that is certainly reassuring! We have a 4 seat can am maverick we haul around with us but that's not much more than a couple thousand pounds. I feel like a read a lot of posts where people say "yeah but I wouldn't get close to the GVWR of the trailer" and are lying to themselves. I think I can say that truthfully. In reality nothing would change from our current camping style in terms of what we bring - maybe the next step will be to get the loaded and unloaded camper on a scale to see what we weigh.

And yeah - unfortunately it is a pretty puny payload. I almost found myself with an F250 diesel but that payload wasn't much better than the F150 I had before it! It was something like 1900 pounds if I recall correctly.

[JRTJH]

Keystone doesn't have any floorplans similar to the Shockwave series. All of Keystone's fifth wheel floorplans have a separate garage, usually 12' or shorter, and at the extreme aft of the trailer. That means any cargo will offset pin weight more than cargo in the Shockwave series which can be loaded closer to the axle position. That would not "decrease" the pin weight as much as the cargo being further behind the axles.

While there are some people who tow 40' fifth wheels in the 16K-17K range with 250/2500 series trucks, it's quite apparent those are definitely in the DRW truck realm. The ones you're looking at "might" squeak by with a SRW 350/3500 truck, if lightly and properly loaded, but are at the "extreme upper end of payload capacity and with the recent moves toward "maximizing GVW/payload" without increasing RAWR, it becomes even more necessary for owners to stay on top of weight restrictions/capacities.

[sourdough]

IMO you need a bigger truck or smaller trailer.

Yes, the empty weight of the larger trailer is right at 10k, BUT, you've already said that you are going to throw in at least 2klbs. in toys. If you're carrying a 4 seat CanAm you aren't running around the parking lot of the local WalMart so that 150gal. fresh water tank will come into play = 1200 lbs. All the items you need to camp; kitchen utensils, pots/pans, linens, towels, tools, misc. gear - we run pretty light and that is still 12-1300lbs. If we just take those bare necessities that's 14500lbs. If you look conservatively at a pin weight of 20% you've got 2900 lbs. Family? Maybe 600 (figuring kids w/4 seater), hitch 220?, and so many other things. Now you're at 3720 off your payload, which is 3400.

I think the next to last paragraph was correct; you answered your own question. The real question is not whether you can pull a 5th wheel because you can, the real question is what size/weight 5th wheel can a 3400 lb. payload support. Go at it that way and "the truth shall reveal itself". Toy haulers are a bit different due to the humongous carrying capacity they put in them but usually those fully loaded rigs have, or should have, a drw.

Take your current rig to a scale and weigh it. Unload it and weigh it...how much "stuff" do you carry. Don't forget water, fuel in the RV tanks if you have them etc.

[Pull Toy]

+ 1 for George....

Having gone both ways.... Dually vs SRW is all I'm talkin' about only! LOL!!!... Dually's are a B*TCH to do anything with other than stable haul. Don't even think about parking curbside downtown, you will be in traffic, even while parked, sipping your favorite beverage! Even in shopping centers, be prepared to hike from the outfield, rather than risk your fenders to some soccer mom in a hurry. (Boy am I gonna' get some feedback on that one!)

Based on your anticipated payload, you should be fine with a SRW with a "QUALITY" 10 ply tire on your TV.

Even if you go Forrest River, stay tuned, we have lots of good people with lots of good info here! We don't have a problem with visitors.

Good Luck,

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by Pull Toy

+ 1 for George....

Having gone both ways.... Dually vs SRW is all I'm talkin' about only! LOL!!!... Dually's are a B*TCH to do anything with other than stable haul. Don't even think about parking curbside downtown, you will be in traffic, even while parked, sipping your favorite beverage! Even in shopping centers, be prepared to hike from the outfield, rather than risk your fenders to some soccer mom in a hurry. (Boy am I gonna' get some feedback on that one!)

Based on your anticipated payload, you should be fine with a SRW with a "QUALITY" 10 ply tire on your TV.

Even if you go Forrest River, stay tuned, we have lots of good people with lots of good info here! We don't have a problem with visitors.

Good Luck,

Another oh the DRW is so big!
They are not Smart Cars but only wider at the hips than a SRW. Not many places I don’t go with our DRW CC long bed.
It is what you make it.

[chuckster57]

It’s all what you get used to. When I bought my DRW in ‘08 I thought the same thing. Yeah I turn wider, yeah I don’t park in the front row, but those are little things compared to the stability.
I hauled a ‘97 Jayco 323RKS with both and I’ll never go back to a SRW again.

Get a flat on a rear tire with all that pin weight. DRW, you still have 3 more to pull over safely...BTDT but to each their own.

[gearhead]

I avoided a DRW as well, until I weighed my Bigfoot cabover all loaded up for a winter trip. Traded a 2016 RAM SRW for a 2018 RAM DRW. Driving the DRW is not nearly as drama filled as some would have you believe. Yes I usually park on the fringes of store lots but I do that with whatever I'm driving anyway. There are plenty DRW trucks being driven by soccer Moms in Texas.
I think the weights you are quoting will be at the very top of the limits, but most likely over. When we had a Montana and a F350 SRW with a payload of 3267, I experimented with the freshwater tank and how it affects the pin weight when full or empty. It was not a 1:1 correlation. If I dumped 400 pounds of water it only lessened the pin weight by 100 pounds. Your cargo in the garage is likely a bit more rearward than my water tank was, but I wouldn't assume if you add 1500 pounds in the garage that the pin weight would decrease by 1500.

[rhagfo]

I assume that you have looked at the two Forest River units in person. Both floor plans show KING sized beds with about 2' of space on each side in a 102" wide 5er, I don't think so!

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

I assume that you have looked at the two Forest River units in person. Both floor plans show KING sized beds with about 2' of space on each side in a 102" wide 5er, I don't think so!

I agree. While I haven't seen a Shockwave (no dealers anywhere near us), the photos on the FR website for the 28FWGDX/3583 https://forestriverinc.com/rvs/toy-h...e/28FWGDX/3583 show the bedroom with what looks like a queensize bed. There is about a 20" nightstand on each side, 60" mattress + 38" nightstands = 98" total interior width + 4" sidewall thickness = 102" overall width. With a 72" king bed, that would only leave 13" on each side of the bed. For most people, 13" is not enough space to walk, so you may find the only way to get into bed is to "shuffle sideways" through that narrow space.

The photo located here: https://forestriverinc.com/rvs/toy-h...e/30DSGDX/4913 is more representative of what the bedroom space is like. This photo is of a travel trailer, not fifth wheel, notice the raised platform on each side of the bed. In some fifth wheel frames, that space is even taller than in this travel trailer, so I'd urge taking an actual look at the bedroom in the fifth wheel to make sure the "King bed is easily accessible". It's not fun to climb into bed to make it …

Another comment about the bedroom arrangement: There is no window on the slide side of the bedroom. It's the same with our Cougar fifth wheel. It doesn't really matter if connected to shore power at a campground as the air conditioner cools the space. When dry camping, the lack of cross ventilation means the raised portion of the fifth wheel gets "swealtery" during the heat of the day. You won't want to be in the bedroom on hot days. Since most toyhaulers are used more often for "dry camping in riding areas", you might consider whether not having cross ventilation is important enough to enter into your selection criteria....

[prometheus1351]

First of all - thanks to everyone for their input... it truly is appreciated!



For some reason I'm struggling to get the multi-quote to work, but more specifically:


For those recommending a dually - I would LOVE a dually but just can't bring myself to take such a huge hit on selling a nearly new truck and rebuying a nearly new or new truck. Also the long bed wouldn't fit in my driveway without blocking some or all of the sidewalk which we really try to avoid.



Also, I haven't looked at any of the units in person yet but I'm planning on checking them out this weekend (even if a FW is out of the question a guy can dream, right?!). When I've window shopped before we had a salesperson hovering and didn't get a good feel for the rig. This time I'm going to ask to be left alone to really take things like widths along the bed into consideration. BUT to be honest even if it were 12" clearance between camper wall and edge of bed I'd take it! If it meant we didn't have to crawl over each other to get out of bed in our current trailer I'd be willing to live with pretty much anything. If we do end up ruling out a fifth wheel I'm going to be looking into some new bumper pulls with similar layouts so that's still a great thing to consider.



JRTJH - thank you for bringing up the crosswind in the bedroom issue. I *think* the shockwave unit has a small window on the bedroom slide even though it's not shown in the floor plan. One of the pictures here seems to show it: https://www.mikethompson.com/inv/202...20014/#mainpic . It's definitely something I'll be considering now that you mention it. You're right - boondocking for riding is the name of the game for us and a "swealtery" bedroom sounds pretty miserable.


By the way I actually didn't realize these were all with king beds! I thought they were queen size. Is that pretty standard for fifth wheels?

[dutchmensport]

Listen to this YouTube video and you'll probably come away with a different perspective. Listen to the entire video. It makes a lot of sense:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_xnWvTuUmM&t=0s

[chuckster57]

The dealership I work at sells shockwave. I’m just going to say if you want one, look it over real close. The dealership I left sold GD momentum’s and they were nice. They also sold FR stealth line of toy haulers and general consensus there was they were junk. I’ve only had hands on 2 shockwave units and unfortunately I’m not that impressed.

[daveinaz]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

Another oh the DRW is so big!
They are not Smart Cars but only wider at the hips than a SRW. Not many places I don’t go with our DRW CC long bed.
It is what you make it.

Same here. No issues driving the DRW around town. But then, I did use to drive a semi so there’s that...

[Camp CA]

Originally Posted by prometheus1351

Does anyone have real-life pin weight experience on these trailers or similar trailers? I'm just trying to get a feel for whether I should keep dreaming about a fifth wheel or just face the reality that it's not in our future with this truck (and as I finish writing this I think I answered my own question).

For 10 years I pulled a Montana 364Q (14,200 lb GVWR 39 ft long) and for 5 years a Montana 305RL (12,500 lb GVWR 36 feet long) with a 2002 Ford F250 SRW with 7.3 liter Powerstroke engine, 4 speed transmission and after market Bank's exhaust brake.

Now I pull a Montanan 3780RL (16,600 lb GVWR 41 feet long) with a 2016 Ford F350 DWR. Much happier with the DRW's stability and the 6.7 liter Powerstroke engine, 6 speed transmission and built-in tow package.

I see a large number of fifth wheels 39+ ft long and 45 ft tow haulers towing with a 350/3500 SRW.

[ctbruce]

Originally Posted by Camp CA

I see a large number of fifth wheels 39+ ft long and 45 ft tow haulers towing with a 350/3500 SRW.

Just because it is seen being done, does not make it a good idea. Not saying that you are promoting this, just saying the obvious for those who may read this and think it's an endorsement.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Camp CA

For 10 years I pulled a Montana 364Q (14,200 lb GVWR 39 ft long) and for 5 years a Montana 305RL (12,500 lb GVWR 36 feet long) with a 2002 Ford F250 SRW with 7.3 liter Powerstroke engine, 4 speed transmission and after market Bank's exhaust brake.

Now I pull a Montanan 3780RL (16,600 lb GVWR 41 feet long) with a 2016 Ford F350 DWR. Much happier with the DRW's stability and the 6.7 liter Powerstroke engine, 6 speed transmission and built-in tow package.

I see a large number of fifth wheels 39+ ft long and 45 ft tow haulers towing with a 350/3500 SRW.

Originally Posted by ctbruce

Just because it is seen being done, does not make it a good idea. Not saying that you are promoting this, just saying the obvious for those who may read this and think it's an endorsement.

Along those same lines, how many of us see someone driving, texting and putting on makeup (or eating a McMuffin) every day? How many of us would suggest any of that is "seen every day, so it must be OK".... Not fingerpointing, but agreeing with Chip, just because it happens every day doesn't make it a good idea....

[CaptnJohn]

Those hips are no wider than your mirror. We leave the Edge. In the garage and the dually is our daily driver. Never need to park in the back 40. Back into a spot and close your mirrors. No way will I ever go back!

[sonofcy]

Originally Posted by prometheus1351

Hi Everyone - a while back my wife and I decided to get into RV camping with a toy hauler. We found a 2006 Keystone NRG 260fs that has worked great for us. I picked up a 2018 F350 6.7 crew cab short bed to pull her with (the RV, not the wife) and everything has been wonderful so far - didn't think I'd want a fifth wheel and was pretty sure I didn't want a dually.

Lo and behold two years later my wife and I REALLY like the idea of a fifth wheel and I just can't bring myself to take a bath on selling my current truck and buying a dually.

So my questions is - while I understand a dually is ideal for towing stability - is there a consensus on what size 5th wheel is not a terrible idea for a SRW truck?

The trailers I'm looking at are the Shockwave 33FWGDX and 28FWGDX which have a GVWR of 14999 and 14210, respectively. My truck has an available payload of 3400 lbs and from what I've read I should probably assume a hitch weight of 25% of GVWR, or 3750 and 3550; both of which technically makes these trailers not a viable option.

Does anyone have real-life pin weight experience on these trailers or similar trailers? I'm just trying to get a feel for whether I should keep dreaming about a fifth wheel or just face the reality that it's not in our future with this truck (and as I finish writing this I think I answered my own question).

Thanks everyone!

Edit - I just realized I'm asking about a Forest River RV in a keystone forum... Kind of foolish of me. Regardless, any input from your experience is appreciated!

Sorry, you will be way over since ALL weight added to the truck since it left the factory is included in that payload number. The weight of the humans, the hitch, stuff in the truck and stuff in the box. That total is generally in the 800 lb range. Is your 3,400 lbs from the door yellow sticker, it sounds more like a sales brochure number. Even if it is, your real available pin wt is more like (3400-800) 2,600 lbs. So even for the lighter trailer at only 20% you are at 2,842 against 2,600. Many properly configured SRW's can do the job, but a DRW will carry more.