Dealers, RVs, Tow Vehicle Weights

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

Now that I am retired, it might be fun to get a job as an RV sales person, and see how successful one could be being truthful with people.

You'd likely have one "hell of a reputation" (both good and bad, depending on who you ask) and an empty wallet.

[HitFactor]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

Now that I am retired, it might be fun to get a job as an RV sales person, and see how successful one could be being truthful with people.

Sales isn't about lying to customers, it's about breaking down barriers to the purchase/sale.

[travelin texans]

It would be helpful to most rv sales people to have at least slept in one at least 1 night some time in their life or towed one around the block a couple laps, but most were selling furniture or flipping burgers last week & have absolutely NO clue about rvs.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

Now that I am retired, it might be fun to get a job as an RV sales person, and see how successful one could be being truthful with people.

Russ, now that is a novel concept. From some of the conversations I've seen I'm not sure all folks WANT to know the truth. I'm also not sure that you would be successful. Of course, being retired maybe it wouldn't matter if you filled your wallet; it might just be "fun", as you mentioned, to be the "shedder of light" amongst your peers at the facility.

[CWtheMan]

To get a clear picture of tire – wheel – axle selections and their application to the RV trailer we must look at it from the designer’s view. Each model will have a target GVWR.

Within the GVWR are all the overall weight values that must be combined into the end product for it to meet satisfactory vehicle certification requirements.

NHTSA allows the trailer manufacturer to set vehicle axle weight requirements and certify those requirements as vehicle certified GAWRs.

The FMVSS (standard) they must follow for certification reads – in part – like this. The sum of the trailer’s total vehicle certified GAWRs, when added to the trailer manufacturer’s published/recommended tongue/hitch weight MUST not be less than the trailer’s GVWR.

On another note: Since 2007 the entire weight of any RV trailer equipped with a propane system will have the entire weight of the system including full propane tanks included in the GVW (dry weight) when it leaves the factory.

Certification labels for units earmarked for the CDN market may have a full water system included in the vehicle certification label. It will be deducted from the unit’s cargo capacity because it is cargo.

[66joej]

Russ maybe a backup job selling trucks. Wait that won't make you any money telling the truth either!

[chuckster57]

Originally Posted by chuckster57

I just bought a 5000 pound tongue scale, just satisfy my curiosity. I will be getting the 2000 pound one for TT’s next pay day.

So far I have weighed a triple axle fifth wheel after installing an Onan 5500W gen and a second gp 27 battery. Trailer is right at 43 ft. 3790 pin weight. GVWR is 20,000 pounds, so it’s close to what is generally accepted.

Currently doing a 30 ft tandem axle fiver. Took the 27 battery out, full propane and all holding/fresh water tanks full. 1490 pounds. Will weigh on Saturday when I get done- 6 6V GC batteries and a 2000W Magnum inverter/charger. Removing pin box and adding goose box. Will post weight.

Ok, empty holding tanks, fresh tank (behind axles) goose box installed...2000 pounds at pin.

[travelin texans]

[QUOTE=CWtheMan;33530
On another note: Since 2007 the entire weight of any RV trailer equipped with a propane system will have the entire weight of the system including full propane tanks included in the GVW (dry weight) when it leaves the factory
[/QUOTE]

Not all since '07! I ordered a '13 & one thing the dealer stated was "they had to get propane tanks & fill before I came to PDI" , the bottles had the dealers price label on them still from getting off the parts area shelf.
If the factories dry weight on mine included full propane then they removed them after weighing or before shipping.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by travelin texans

Not all since '07! I ordered a '13 & one thing the dealer stated was "they had to get propane tanks & fill before I came to PDI" , the bottles had the dealers price label on them still from getting off the parts area shelf.
If the factories dry weight on mine included full propane then they removed them after weighing or before shipping.

This comes up a couple times every year. I emailed Keystone and asked the specific question, "Does the advertised hitch/pin weight include battery and propane?" Here is the response from Keystone in December 2017:


From: jrtjhXXXXXXXX
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Keystone RV Shopper's Konnection

Thank you for your response. If I understand you correctly, the hitch weight as it appears on your website does NOT include a battery or propane, but it does include the weight of the empty propane cylinders. Is that correct? Thanks much !!

Hi John,

Yes, that is correct.

Bettina Rogers
Keystone RV Company
Keystone Shoppers Konnection
574-535-2488
[email protected]


As you can see from the email confirming that the weight of propane is not included in their advertised hitch/pin weights, apparently, Keystone either didn't get "that 2007 notice" or Keystone "chooses to ignore it".

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

This comes up a couple times every year. I emailed Keystone and asked the specific question, "Does the advertised hitch/pin weight include battery and propane?" Here is the response from Keystone in December 2017:


From: jrtjhXXXXXXXX
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Keystone RV Shopper's Konnection

Thank you for your response. If I understand you correctly, the hitch weight as it appears on your website does NOT include a battery or propane, but it does include the weight of the empty propane cylinders. Is that correct? Thanks much !!

Hi John,

Yes, that is correct.

Bettina Rogers
Keystone RV Company
Keystone Shoppers Konnection
574-535-2488
[email protected]


As you can see from the email confirming that the weight of propane is not included in their advertised hitch/pin weights, apparently, Keystone either didn't get "that 2007 notice" or Keystone "chooses to ignore it".

John, your post is on point. I have asked the same question and received the same answer myself. Don't know what that 2007 "notice" was but it didn't mean much to the manufacturers apparently. I don't know that I recall anyone ever telling me, or reading, the "unloaded" weight of an rv included full propane tanks? Of course, if you are running that close on weights it seems that might be problematic.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by sourdough

John, your post is on point. I have asked the same question and received the same answer myself. Don't know what that 2007 "notice" was but it didn't mean much to the manufacturers apparently. I don't know that I recall anyone ever telling me, or reading, the "unloaded" weight of an rv included full propane tanks? Of course, if you are running that close on weights it seems that might be problematic.

Danny,

I think we're all being told essentially the same thing, advertised tongue/pin weight includes the weight of EMPTY propane cylinders and does not include the weight of the propane and/or batteries that are installed by the dealer.

You're right, it's usually only an issue when running very close to max weights. My concern is the guy with a maximum hitch weight rating of 1100 pounds, looks at the brochure, thinks, OK, they say it's 1050, so I'm good to go with 50 pounds to spare. Then the dealer adds a GP27 battery, battery box and 60 pounds of propane to the hitch...... Yeah, his 50 pounds suddenly became a "negative 60+ pounds"...

For me, this is yet another reason not to push "to the limit" and to always have that 10% or 15% of the maximum weight rating "in the bag to spare"... I've read your "sermons" on exactly the same thing, and I know there's loads of others who feel the same way.

[CWtheMan]

Those that are familiar with my postings should know that I support what is supposed to happen. It is not my intent to be arbitrary with my posts.

The following are the actual paragraphs from one of the FMVSS (standards) RV trailer builders MUST comply with. If they or their representatives wish to embellish their answers to such questions, so be it. Those that do that may just not know the actual requirement or are just saying things to satisfy the question at hand so they can move on.

S10.2 On RV trailers, the sum of the GAWRs of all axles on the vehicle plus the vehicle manufacturer's recommended tongue weight must not be less than the GVWR. If tongue weight is specified as a range, the minimum value must be used.

S10.4.2 The weight value for load carrying capacity on the RV load carrying capacity labels (Figures 1 and 2) must be displayed to the nearest kilogram with conversion to the nearest pound and must be such that the vehicle's weight does not exceed its GVWR when loaded with the stated load carrying capacity. The UVW and the GVWR used to determine the RV's load carrying capacity must reflect the weights and design of the motor home or RV trailer as configured for delivery to the dealer/service facility. If applicable, the weight of full propane tanks must be included in the RV's UVW and the weight of on-board potable water must be treated as cargo.

Those are from a 2018 document. If you wish the read the entire standard here is a reference.

http://federal.elaws.us/cfr/49CFR571.120

NOTE: The topics above are the same for trailer's under 10K. If in doubt you can look at 49 CFR 571.110.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by CWtheMan

Those that are familiar with my postings should know that I support what is supposed to happen. It is not my intent to be arbitrary with my posts.

The following are the actual paragraphs from one of the FMVSS (standards) RV trailer builders MUST comply with. If they or their representatives wish to embellish their answers to such questions, so be it. Those that do that may just not know the actual requirement or are just saying things to satisfy the question at hand so they can move on.

S10.2 On RV trailers, the sum of the GAWRs of all axles on the vehicle plus the vehicle manufacturer's recommended tongue weight must not be less than the GVWR. If tongue weight is specified as a range, the minimum value must be used.

S10.4.2 The weight value for load carrying capacity on the RV load carrying capacity labels (Figures 1 and 2) must be displayed to the nearest kilogram with conversion to the nearest pound and must be such that the vehicle's weight does not exceed its GVWR when loaded with the stated load carrying capacity. The UVW and the GVWR used to determine the RV's load carrying capacity must reflect the weights and design of the motor home or RV trailer as configured for delivery to the dealer/service facility. If applicable, the weight of full propane tanks must be included in the RV's UVW and the weight of on-board potable water must be treated as cargo.
Those are from a 2018 document. If you wish the read the entire standard here is a reference.

http://federal.elaws.us/cfr/49CFR571.120

NOTE: The topics above are the same for trailer's under 10K. If in doubt you can look at 49 CFR 571.110.

Cal,

Having been a "gubmint employee" for 30+ years, I found that little two word phrase that I bolded and changed to red in your post has "bit more butts than not".....

That said, it's my understanding that "If applicable" in this situation, refers to permanently installed propane tanks (like those in class A, B and C motorhomes) and not to removeable propane cylinders. That portion of the regulation also doesn't include a requirement to include the spare tire, tire rack/mount in the cargo weight calculations.

My "assessment" (for what it's worth) is that "for every regulation, there's a list of exceptions, usually not easily found (often in a supplement or appendix) and often not listed in the "original verbage" so there's no "direct link for novice regulation readers".... I'd suppose that is likely the situation here as well. For me, it's not worth the time or effort to "go hunting for some obscure, well hidden CFR post, so I'll just leave what the factory representative told me (in writing) and move on. This will likely become a "he said/she said" flare to the ongoing discussion that, as I said, comes up several times a year.

Anyway, we're forecast (weatherman's morning guessing) to get "somewhere between 3 and 11 inches of snow today. This is as the trailer sits in the driveway, being loaded for a Monday morning departure for "anywhere south"..... So, I'm about to load a laundry basket full of shorts, bathing suits and sandals to the trailer door so my DW can put them away while I check tire pressure. BTW, both our propane tanks are full, so we're 60 pounds heavier than we were when the tanks were empty.

[Javi]

Just my opinion....


but if you got to worry about the weight of a battery or two and the weight of the liquid propane in the cylinders... then maybe you is one of those folks my old daddy was talking about when he said "life is a series of tests and some folks just ain't suited to win"

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Cal,

That said, it's my understanding that "If applicable" in this situation, refers to permanently installed propane tanks (like those in class A, B and C motorhomes) and not to removeable propane cylinders. That portion of the regulation also doesn't include a requirement to include the spare tire, tire rack/mount in the cargo weight calculations.

I guess that’s where we differ with our interpretations. My history with government documents tells me that if the RV trailer is equipped with a propane system, the storage bottles and their contents are part of the vehicle GVW.

NHTSA has a site where one can obtain interpretations from their legal counsel. I’ve included it below. I’ve often found it very useful.

https://isearch.nhtsa.gov/

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by CWtheMan

I guess that’s where we differ with our interpretations. My history with government documents tells me that if the RV trailer is equipped with a propane system, the storage bottles and their contents are part of the vehicle GVW.

NHTSA has a site where one can obtain interpretations from their legal counsel. I’ve included it below. I’ve often found it very useful.

https://isearch.nhtsa.gov/

: "History with government documents" has me worrying right off the bat. That said, as was mentioned, the weights, as told to me by anyone/everyone (along with my "superficial" research), does not include the weight of the propane. On the other hand, that should be completely irrelevent. If someone is looking at, or towing, an RV where the weight of the propane is an issue....they shouldn't be there in the first place. Of course that is JMHO, and as usual...YMMV. (and I defer to Javi's "old daddy" observation).

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by sourdough

: "History with government documents" has me worrying right off the bat. That said, as was mentioned, the weights, as told to me by anyone/everyone (along with my "superficial" research), does not include the weight of the propane. On the other hand, that should be completely irrelevent. If someone is looking at, or towing, an RV where the weight of the propane is an issue....they shouldn't be there in the first place. Of course that is JMHO, and as usual...YMMV. (and I defer to Javi's "old daddy" observation).

I was a government employee for more than 41 years. Thirty-one as active duty USN and ten as a journeyman aircraft mechanic at the Naval Aviation Depot at Jacksonville, FL.

Government documents insure that RV trailer builders follow a set of rules and regulations that requires them to meet all minimal safety standards. Then they must certify compliance with those safety standards. Once an owner accepts a vehicle that has numerous minimal standards it's important that they not exceed them.

Some owners are meticulous with the weight an balance of their trailers. IF the weight of full propane tanks has already become part of the trailer's GVW when it leaves the factory there is no since in counting it as cargo, which it is not. If a dealer counts it and by doing so exceeds 100# of cargo a the time of delivery they MUST deduct it from the official cargo label. (That's a prime example of how a part of one standard effects a part of another). Paragraph; S10.5.1 If weight exceeding 45.4 kg (100 pounds) is added to a motor home or RV trailer between final vehicle certification and first retail sale of the vehicle, the load carrying capacity values on the RV load carrying capacity labels must be corrected.

(Final Vehicle Certification occurs just prior to the vehicle leaving the factory. It may be called dry weight by others but as it leaves the factory it's the GVW).

I guess the best way to keep me from spouting regulations is to keep questions relevant to the topic. Most topic questions can be answered by summaries from industry standards.

[GMcKenzie]

I recently decided to kick tires at RV stores, just to see what is out there and see if I could get ideas to spruce up my 10 yr old unit. Ended up at 3 lots.

Not one of the RV salesmen tried to get me into a rig I couldn't tow. All 3 asked what I towed with and when I said I was thinking of getting bigger, not one told me I'd be fine now. My truck is rated to two 10,800 (per brochures) and maxes out payload at 8,200. The heaviest trailer I looked at was 10,500, but again, not one of the salesmen pushed me to go that big with what I currently have.

I was surprised and impressed.

I even had one salesmen inform me that I would need to be licensed different if I went over 10K. Was news to me but he was 100% correct.

So no pushing and I learned something

[notanlines]

We also have fairly good luck with salesmen (and a VERY sharp young lady in central Florida) with questioning what our TV was.

[glendar10]

Originally Posted by sourdough

Weights are an ongoing subject of discussion and rightfully so. Discussions around the comments of "the dealer" said it would be OK; the "salesman" said it would be OK abound. As most should know, those folks are there to sell you something….not determine if you, or your vehicle, are qualified to carry a specific load.

Case in point; spent the morning/afternoon looking at various 5th wheels. Asked for a seasoned salesman I knew. Low key; very knowledgeable about the RVs, straightforward and honest. I told him that weight was a consideration because I was going to buy a new truck predicated on the trailer we chose, if any. As we discussed various units the number he threw out for weight was the dry weight...every time. I told him my current payload, what I figured for pin weight and that it would be based off of gvw - and THAT would determine what I bought for a truck....as should everyone else.

I spent several hours there and I asked, everytime, what the gvw was because he recited the dry weight every time. As we went here and there I talked to him pretty much constantly about the importance of weights and not trying to steer folks to units that were too big. I showed him the stickers, gvw and axle ratings and how that related to the tow truck ratings for payload and gvw...on the door.. He's generally their top salesman and has been there longer than the others. The conversations we had were a first for him...he was indoctrinated to sell...using a "selling" number. Super nice guy; very open to listening to what I was saying. I asked him to keep the numbers I mentioned in mind when talking to potential customers and he said he would - I think he will.

A story from today to just illustrate to anyone that thinks the "salesman" said it was OK....is OK. As well intentioned as they may be, they have "their" agenda...as a buyer you should have yours - the safety of your family. Sometimes at odds with the salesmans idea of "taking care of you". Just food for thought.

I agree, I did go to Joe Cotton Ford and did talk to the sale Manger as we wanted to but a truck to pull 29 for cougar red and gave him all the numbers on the unit, pin weight and hitch weights water and the rest. He came up with a f250 king ranch diesel. After singing the paper work and getting the truck, which is a great truck but not good for what we bought it for, we could see the payload for that truck which is only 2085 lbs. every other weights would work but not payload. And no way we could have gotten the payload as all you can get is what the dealer states. That being said dealer should have to make it right. But just told that the truck can PULl that trailer. How gets ticket for overload? There needs to be some training for the sale people and fins or something if they sell you something that is illegal to drive on road. I know there are many people out there in the same boat as we are but we did invest a lot of money in this truck and are not stuck with what we ask for and only way around it to look for pull trailer. I will say this we have gone to shows were sale people don’t even know what pin weight is just like the Sale Manger at Joe Cotton Ford, and Ford says the people are trained on trailer weights. They must sweep through it. We need to find a way to fix this problem