Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 

Go Back   Keystone RV Forums > Keystone Tech Forums > Towing
Click Here to Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 02-19-2019, 05:49 PM   #21
sourdough
Site Team
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: W. Texas
Posts: 17,601
Quote:
Originally Posted by John61CT View Post
And unlike the rest of the developed world, in America "enforcement" has been privatized to the insurance companies, you think everything's fine until the day it isn't,

everything goes pear-shaped, and since you're illegal copper stuffs the "reckless driving" ticket in your shirt pocket as the paramedics load your arse into the ambulance

hopefully you didn't kill anyone, but regardless could be millions of liability and all those premiums you paid over the years might as well ha ve been tossed out the window,

insurance company's free to walk away leave you and your dependants holding the bag.

Whoooaaa! Where does all this come from!! Guilty of reckless driving?? Illegal coppers stuffing tickets in your shirt pocket??

I think I'm at a loss with this post. Reckless driving, as defined by the law, get a ticket. Have an accident due to that...your fault. Paramedics load you up and take you to the hospital? Thank God - but, if reckless driving you possibly lost all your insurance benefits. You can easily cause the loss of others property or lives. Reckless driving, causing accidents and endangering others is, obviously, a serious crime.

If you have worries about the "American" insurance system; our "non compliance" with the norms of the rest of the "civilized" world etc......I can only question why you are in "America"? As for me, there is a thing called an umbrella policy to cover those "millions of liability" if it comes to that - but, if you do illegal things, I believe you just pay that cost yourself. The "years of premiums" that you've paid? That covers you year to year...not cumulative. The insurance company has a VERY large stake in your behavior and the only way they make money is your compliance over years.

My question is where this vitriol comes from against "America" and law enforcement??? Your post sounds like you are from Britain? Just a guess.
__________________
Danny and Susan, wife of 56 years
2019 Ram 3500 Laramie CC SWB SB 6.4 4x4 4.10
2020 Montana High Country 331RL
sourdough is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2019, 12:57 AM   #22
Fishsizzle
Senior Member
 
Fishsizzle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,138
I’ll wade into this one carefully as many know my trepidation with this site and how ones have been tasked on weight (including myself)

I like the helping, non-accusatory approach. If ones have asked for help, help. If they haven’t, hold comments until it’s appropriate to do so.

If education is the goal, then we have to wait till ones are receptive to being taught, otherwise we can lose future attempts to help someone who is potentially going to ask, but will just lurk or move on and not ever stop and engage out of fear of getting “poked with sticks”

I understand full well now my responsibility of my rig choice and the risks to all of you I have imposed. I will rectify my poor choice in 3/4 truck with a properly equipped truck when I can afford to do so.

There is a huge disservice taking place with tow guides and salespeople, I know I’ve fallen victim to what I call the “bilind tow guide” as it does not reflect the true ability of the truck you are going to purchase and use. I don’t know if this will ever be fixed, or will enough people ever venture onto this or other sites that will help them make the right choice in tow vehicles.

I hope it does get fixed, or some sort of towing school comes out much like motor cycle endorsement classes that are offered by enthusiasts to help ones pass their exams. That’s a good thought, maybe have a both at RV shows explaining what your rig can tow, or what you will need in a tow rig for that fancy 42’ triple axle toy hauler you’re looking at Can you imagine what RV salesmen would do if we told everyone they could only haul 25’ TT with their 3/4?

Go back and watch “Long, Long Trailet” with Desi and Lucy. It’s the typical way we approach RV buying. In the movie they buy the trailer only to be told “ better get a bigger car, will be a big savings in the end” . It’s as true today as back then. That movie should be shown to every prospective RV buyer, though a comedy, it reflects well the anxiety that can go with towing. (Braking, speed, hills, weight, where to sleep, trip planning, etc)

Thanks for letting me ramble a bit

Justin
Fishsizzle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2019, 03:45 AM   #23
Retired Copper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Hurley
Posts: 350
I started not to jump in either but I think IMO is a very important resource along with the facts for numbers. I came to this sight and others not so much for numbers but folks real life experiences, to come to my on opinion. That`s what is boils down to your choice. I nor no one else can make that choice for you and they should not IMO. You can have all the numbers working and still have problems. What? Yes IMO you can still have problems and that`s why and where the real life opinions come into play. I`ve seen lately that a lot of rv salesman asking what are you going to tow with and they pull up the tow charts for said vehicle. Yes the weights will work according to the guild you are right at the limit at GVW. The problem I have with that is the test is not done with a r/v attached to the vehicle. The sheer height and length play a part that is seldom talked about. I truly believe that the truck can pull that weight can handle that weight, but can it handle it at over 10 feet tall and 30 plus feet long. So another plus for real life experiences and the IMO side of a thread. Who has done it? What was the results? Did you do anything to help a problem or was a problem fixed? I do think one should not be jumped on for an opinion and most of us have been in a not so good a place starting out with towing. It is much more than a one siuze fit all IMO,
__________________
Kenny & Susan
2017 Passport 2670bh
2017 F250 6.2 4wd
Equalizer 4 pt.
Retired Copper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2019, 05:11 AM   #24
John61CT
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: CT
Posts: 36
And I in turn am confused where you got all that.

Gross overloading over spec **is** illegal and reckless.

You usually don't get charged until after an accident.

Cop not doing anything wrong, much less illegal.

And the insurance get off without paying out, is exactly my point!

In other countries you get pulled over and inspected very regularly, the weight rules proactively enforced.

And sure 'Murica is wonderful, but if you're suggesting it is unpatriotic to point out the **many** policy areas where we can improve, that is just warped.

We do a decent job with commercial vehicle safety enforcement, just that the ball is dropped for regulat folk.
John61CT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2019, 05:39 AM   #25
notanlines
Senior Member
 
notanlines's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Germantown, TN
Posts: 6,308
Just to poke a stick at a barking dog, maybe someone could site a couple instances where insurance companies failed to pay when their customer was doing something illegal such as running overweight, speeding, failure to yield, etc. How far would insurance companies get if they failed to pay because their customer ran a stop sign and damaged a truck? Not gonna happen.
__________________
Jim in Memphis, Wife of 51 years is Brenda
2019 F450 6.7 Powerstroke
2018 Mobile Suites 40RSSA
2021 40' Jayco Eagle
2001 Road king w/matching Harley sidecar
2021 Yamaha X2 Wolverine 1000
notanlines is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2019, 05:44 AM   #26
Javi
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Waco, Tx
Posts: 5,456
Quote:
Originally Posted by notanlines View Post
Just to poke a stick at a barking dog, maybe someone could site a couple instances where insurance companies failed to pay when their customer was doing something illegal such as running overweight, speeding, failure to yield, etc. How far would insurance companies get if they failed to pay because their customer ran a stop sign and damaged a truck? Not gonna happen.
Pretty sure that they'll pay even if you were breaking the law... but I'm equally sure that an SR22 policy is in your future. [emoji16]
__________________
2015 Ford F350 DRW 6.7 Diesel XL
2020 Avalanche 313 RS
Javi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2019, 08:06 AM   #27
xrated
Senior Member
 
xrated's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: "Murvil, TN
Posts: 2,198
Insurance companies will pay off the claim, even if you are D.U.I and cause an accident, but like Javi said, be prepared for the SR22.....whether it's them still insuring you or some other high risk company. Having said that, also be prepared for the civil suit that you will most likely be involved in, especially if the other side can show negligence on your part for knowingly towing overloaded.
__________________
2016 F350 King Ranch Crew Cab Dually Diesel 4x4
2018 Grand Design Momentum 394M
2023 Suzuki GSX-S1000GT+
Excessive payload capacity is a wonderful thing

"If it ain't Fast....It ain't Fun"
xrated is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2019, 06:34 PM   #28
Fishsizzle
Senior Member
 
Fishsizzle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,138
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrated View Post
Insurance companies will pay off the claim, even if you are D.U.I and cause an accident, but like Javi said, be prepared for the SR22.....whether it's them still insuring you or some other high risk company. Having said that, also be prepared for the civil suit that you will most likely be involved in, especially if the other side can show negligence on your part for knowingly towing overloaded.
I would reckon the only ones who would know are those of us here
Fishsizzle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2019, 07:50 PM   #29
Ksupaul
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Olathe, KS
Posts: 124
Had to chuckle at the thread title! OP is a good post. I stopped looking at the TV versus weight discussions long ago::

1. Usually ends up in a pissing match
2. Usually gets closed by mods eventually
3. I really never learned anything from them with the bickering

My $0.02 anyway. I’m sure some find them fun or useful.
Ksupaul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2019, 04:11 AM   #30
notanlines
Senior Member
 
notanlines's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Germantown, TN
Posts: 6,308
Good points all, even yours Paul. Although hopefully no one pulls a handgun in this discussion and then the thread won't get locked. I believe an sr22 is usually required for DWI, driving with no insurance or no license. No matter, my point was that we read fairly often that the insurance isn't required to pay if an individual was breaking the law and that simply isn't true. Virtually all accidents end with a ticket for some infraction, some more serious than others and though your insurance premiums may escalate as a result, seldom is cancelation in the future. The idea of being sued later for gross negligence is sort of a horse of another color; very possible but not part of the original point to be made.
And lastly, Paul, I believe if this forum was dedicated to blown fuses in three-way refrigerators or complaints about Keystone roof leaks we would see membership dwindle and we would have very few active members. Opinionated members, not unlike yourself, are an integral part of the glue that keeps this site running forward.
As Daniel's last words in There will be Blood, "I'm finished."
__________________
Jim in Memphis, Wife of 51 years is Brenda
2019 F450 6.7 Powerstroke
2018 Mobile Suites 40RSSA
2021 40' Jayco Eagle
2001 Road king w/matching Harley sidecar
2021 Yamaha X2 Wolverine 1000
notanlines is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2019, 05:03 AM   #31
Javi
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Waco, Tx
Posts: 5,456
Quote:
Originally Posted by notanlines View Post
Good points all, even yours Paul. Although hopefully no one pulls a handgun in this discussion and then the thread won't get locked. I believe an sr22 is usually required for DWI, driving with no insurance or no license. No matter, my point was that we read fairly often that the insurance isn't required to pay if an individual was breaking the law and that simply isn't true. Virtually all accidents end with a ticket for some infraction, some more serious than others and though your insurance premiums may escalate as a result, seldom is cancelation in the future. The idea of being sued later for gross negligence is sort of a horse of another color; very possible but not part of the original point to be made.
And lastly, Paul, I believe if this forum was dedicated to blown fuses in three-way refrigerators or complaints about Keystone roof leaks we would see membership dwindle and we would have very few active members. Opinionated members, not unlike yourself, are an integral part of the glue that keeps this site running forward.
As Daniel's last words in There will be Blood, "I'm finished."
https://www.dps.texas.gov/DriverLice...ertificate.htm

https://www.tdi.texas.gov/pubs/consumer/cb020.html
__________________
2015 Ford F350 DRW 6.7 Diesel XL
2020 Avalanche 313 RS
Javi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2019, 05:34 AM   #32
captcolour
Senior Member
 
captcolour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Verona, KY
Posts: 320
In today's world of the interzweb, there is pretty much no excuse for being in an overweight situation if you are purchasing either the truck or RV or both now.


When I was considering purchasing a trailer, I did my research on brands on-line, and also stumbled upon weight considerations. At the time of looking, had a nine month old F150. As the trailers we were looking at got longer and heavier, called the dealer to see what he could do on a trade for a F250 which of course was not a good situation with only a 9 month old trade-in scenario. As the trailers kept getting longer, told the DW I'm not pulling something that long, has to be a 5th wheel and a dually. Picked out the 5th wheel then ordered the truck. Point is I did my homework upfront to avoid issues before purchasing.


So the $64,000 question is (well more like the $112,000 question in today's dollars) how do we reach prospective buyers so they can make the most informed decision before purchase. I don't know the answer to that question on a larger scale, but for this forum, a simple sticky at the top of the Towing section, and perhaps the same sticky at the top of the 5th Wheel, Travel Trailer, Toy Hauler, etc covering the basics of weights simply and as a matter of fact would be most helpful. Giving some examples where everything is fine, and then several examples of where weights are off in different ways would be good. Hopefully this would avoid having to stumble onto something, and would be easier to find for visitors without having to search.



I know there was a link to an on-line calculator at one point. I did not find that helpful, as I don't recall it offering any explanations. Perhaps a combination of text and a link would be OK.



And as a follow-up, you could use the same sticky or a separate one on how to weigh properly on a CAT scale and how to interpret the results. I see those questions asked regularly, and as a public service, having the info more readily available would be great.


If we want to pursue the sticky, I think a few of the more knowledgeable members should work together to word these off-line, and then have a moderator post, sticky and lock them.



Just my $0.02.
__________________
New: 2021 Solitude 380FL
Old: 2016 Alpine 3600RS
Tow: 2017 F-350 DRW diesel
captcolour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2019, 06:29 AM   #33
Fishsizzle
Senior Member
 
Fishsizzle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,138
In today's world of the interzweb, there is pretty much no excuse for being in an overweight situation if you are purchasing either the truck or RV or both now.


Well,,,,,, I in the not pretty much group with an excuse. I trusted the Ford tow guide, not knowing that the numbers do not reflect actual trucks but rather some mythical truck that has everything stripped off and boarderline third world in terms of comfort.

Plus, had I not purchased an Alpine, I would have never ventured over to this site, thus I would be driving in RV bliss unaware of my trucks lack of capabilities.

Stickies help, but honestly I don’t read them. I like “talking” on threads. I want people to stop and stay awhile here.

I’m was bitter at ones in this site for a time, then I decided to move on and start talking to ones more. This has made ones “real” people. Not some jerks bent on ruining my RV adventures. I’ve grown to appreciate many here as their stories and personalities come through in their posts.

I guess where I’m heading is I don’t view ones as “weight police” anymore, rather, I choose to see people for their strong points and try and learn and bring balance to myself, and to this site. Facts, opinions, areguments all have a purpose, and the fact that we are talking and engaging is huge! People don’t talk anymore, arrogance and pride rule the day.

So my proverbial hat is off to anyone who take time to write anything here. Thanks much.
Fishsizzle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2019, 06:37 AM   #34
Northofu1
Senior Member
 
Northofu1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Markham, Ontario
Posts: 1,942
The only way it could work is if the Truck and trailer dealer ask the pertinent questions. That is not going to happen. Neither of them wants a potential customer to walk away. So,,,, Buyer beware.

And on another point, There's a list of 25 (not including A,B,C, D bullet points) exclusions of coverage on any Canadian Motorhome / Vacation trailer insurance policies.
Remember,, Insurance on any motorized or towed vehicle is Mandatory in the Great White North. They even include the "Breaking Bad" clause of using it as a meth lab
__________________
Dan & Serena

2019 GMC SIERRA 2500 HD SLE
2015 Cougar X-Lite 29 RET
Northofu1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2019, 06:41 AM   #35
German Shepherd Guy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Norwood, CO
Posts: 667
[QUOTE=Fishsizzle;327466]I’ll wade into this one carefully as many know my trepidation with this site and how ones have been tasked on weight (including myself)

I hope it does get fixed, or some sort of towing school comes out much like motor cycle endorsement classes that are offered by enthusiasts to help ones pass their exams.




First, Great OP. Interesting how it morphs.


As a motorcyclist who has done several cross country trips on my Triumph I think Fishsizzle is on to something. In my state (Colorado) we have to have an endorsement on our Lic. to operate a motorcycle legally. That means passing a specific test and completing a safety class. Would that kind of approach be useful in towing? I have had personal experience with more than one group of towers who are totally incapable of backing up. We (in Colorado) do not assume that just because you can drive a car you can operate a motorcycle safely, is it really any different when it comes to towing large RV's?


Not that I want even more bureaucracy but it is an idea.


When it goes back to John's original post, I personally like the approach of counseling vs telling how it is.
But that is just the way I take lessons better.



This is a great site and a great resource for self learning the art of RVing.




Plus, I really like the little cartoon characters i can add in to my post
__________________

German Shepherd Guy

2018 Keystone 26RBPR
2014 Suburban 2500, 6L with 3.73 rear

German Shepherd Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2019, 06:47 AM   #36
rhagfo
Senior Member
 
rhagfo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,180
Captcolour, great suggestion, it should include the payload is shared with everything that goes into the TV.
Payload can go fast, our 2016 Ram door sticker 5,411# payload. Now with 7/8 tank of fuel DW the beagle, hitch and the tool box in the bed we scaled at 9,950#, leaving 4,050# for pin weight.
__________________
Russ & Paula and Belle the Beagle.
2016 Ram Laramie 3500 DRW 14,000# GVWR (New TV)
2005 Copper Canyon 293 FWSLS 32’ GVWR 12,360
Visit and enjoy Oregon State Parks
rhagfo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2019, 08:19 AM   #37
JRTJH
Site Team
 
JRTJH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 26,846
Oak,

I think that the majority of states do have "RV Licensing" as a matter of routine structure in their licensing categories. The problem is that most of them start at 26,001 pounds and that eliminates (or excuses) most RV'ers in the "usual category"... Most of the vehicles used by members here are excluded from "license endorsement requirements" simply by that weight standard. It's not until you get to the 1 ton truck (usually diesel and dually) that you go over that 26,001 pound combined weight.....

So, I think (just MHO) that for your suggestion to work (and I think it's valid) the concept of "big vehicle" or "too heavy for normal drivers vehicle" needs to be lowered. If I remember, they tried that in California with motorhomes longer than 40' and it was quite a long, hard task to get even that through the legislature.

Several years ago, the maximum width for most vehicles was 98 inches. Then along came the 102" wide allowance (for mirrors) and RV manufacturers started building "wide body RV's" that were 102" without the mirrors. Some states refused to change their laws, and for about 10 years, you couldn't tow into those states without risking a ticket. (Much like double/triple towing to Florida). Now, there are still some states that limit width to 98" but they "don't enforce the law" (unless you piss off an LEO or ...... )

As I said, I agree with RV licensing, but at what length, what width, what weight, what class? And, how do you get states to pass those laws with the "stressful agenda of keeping voters happy and voting for them" ????

Whether it's a "great idea", a "truly necessary idea" or a "unpopular idea" how are you going to get it passed when legislators can't even agree on when to meet to talk about it because it'll probably cost them votes and maybe an election ????
__________________
John



2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
JRTJH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2019, 08:24 AM   #38
travelin texans
Senior Member
 
travelin texans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Picacho, Az
Posts: 6,809
[QUOTE=German Shepherd Guy;327611]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishsizzle View Post
I’ll wade into this one carefully as many know my trepidation with this site and how ones have been tasked on weight (including myself)

I hope it does get fixed, or some sort of towing school comes out much like motor cycle endorsement classes that are offered by enthusiasts to help ones pass their exams.




First, Great OP. Interesting how it morphs.


As a motorcyclist who has done several cross country trips on my Triumph I think Fishsizzle is on to something. In my state (Colorado) we have to have an endorsement on our Lic. to operate a motorcycle legally. That means passing a specific test and completing a safety class. Would that kind of approach be useful in towing? I have had personal experience with more than one group of towers who are totally incapable of backing up. We (in Colorado) do not assume that just because you can drive a car you can operate a motorcycle safely, is it really any different when it comes to towing large RV's?


Not that I want even more bureaucracy but it is an idea.


When it goes back to John's original post, I personally like the approach of counseling vs telling how it is.
But that is just the way I take lessons better.



This is a great site and a great resource for self learning the art of RVing.




Plus, I really like the little cartoon characters i can add in to my post
IMO it wouldn't happen! Most newbies don't know about all the weights/ capabilities involved & the truck/rv dealers don't know or care about them as long as they make the sale.
It would be the same with a towing course, prospective buyers won't know about it or be told about it til after they've handed over their cash.
Not to mention, the rv manufacturers would fight against any type of special licences or training that could potentially affect their sales.
Hopefully not offending anyone on here, but on our wonderful highways today I'm more concerned with the millions of so-called "professional" truck drivers on the roadways than the occasional overweight rv. We drive 30-45 minutes in any direction on I-10 for shopping & have yet to do so that at least one truck didn't cut me off like they're driving their Porsche on the autobahn or run up behind so close I thought I'd have to open the tailgate so they could drive through. At least the obviously overloaded rver is more courteous driving slower in the right lane, not darting in out of lanes or blocking every lane of traffic running 2 or 3 abreast.
__________________
Full-timed 10+ years
Sold '13 Redwood FB
Traded '13 GMC Denali DRW D/A
Replacement undetermined
travelin texans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2019, 02:01 PM   #39
kayakjim
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Roseville
Posts: 21
Thank you for the post. Well written. We all care about our fellow camper, their families and everyone on the road. I wish I knew a way to help get the word out. The excitement of camping, a new or used rig, thought of a new truck takes over. The sales folks don't want lose a sale to another guy that does not talk about towing (truck dealerships & RV). Dealers and manufacturers do not want to be put on the hook as the "expert" of what you need since almost every situation is a bit different. Folks like Trailer life, Good Sam / Camping World need to step it up a bit with communication and articles.
kayakjim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2019, 03:50 PM   #40
Number 4
Senior Member
 
Number 4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 187
The job of a sales reps is to sell the truck or trailer and the "sales job" can be exactly what sounds like. Then you have commercials where they drop a heavy pallet of something into a truck bed (whang bounce bounce... no damage there!) and even show a truck pulling a trailer up a spiral inclined ramp with huge flames spouting on the left and right all the way up... remember that one? It's no surprise that many buyers "buy into" the lofty claims of tough trucks and later get down to the actual math of what it's truly capable of. A dose of skepticism can be very helpful, not only with TT and TV purchases but also with Nigerian princes willing to pay big money to process some oddball transaction.
Number 4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates in any way. Keystone RV® is a registered trademark of the Keystone RV Company.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.