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Old 08-16-2018, 08:06 AM   #1
Jefster
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Keystone and Fire Safety

I have a fire safety issue and contacted Keystone about it today, but I feel like I'm getting blown off about it.

We bought a Passport 3290bh this summer. We've camped in it several times, it's a great trailer and exactly the right floorplan for us. HOWEVER, it was pointed out to me (I confess I did not notice this issue when we bought it nor during pdi), that there is no fire escape window in the bunkhouse. I called Keystone, they said basically too bad, that's how the trailer is designed.

OK, so you designed it that way. But then you also put a sticker on the side that says you comply with RVIA, including all fire safety codes. So to me it's one or the other. Either you build the trailer to comply with fire safety standards, or you remove the sticker from the trailers that you build and sell.

We have one escape window in the front bedroom. The door is just outside the front bedroom. Which means in between the bunkhouse, which is designed to sleep 6 children, and the nearest escape door is about 16 feet. 16 feet which contains the fridge, stove, furnace, and hot water heater. To me, even without fire safety standards of having exit windows in sleeping areas, that seems like a bad idea.

I pressed for a call back from a manager, they said probably tomorrow.
I'll be waiting by the phone for sure, seeing as how I don't think she even asked for my phone number. I'll give the benefit of the doubt that it's on caller ID for now. Or maybe they have it on file because I did give the VIN. Or maybe she was just blowing me off completely.

Not a great first impression from Keystone customer service. She tried to dismiss it by making a note in the file about it. I'm not sure what exactly that is supposed to help.

And yes, I know that I bought the trailer and this is how it was when I bought it. I will certainly pay more attention to that in the future. However, putting that sticker on the wall and using fire safety compliance in the marketing of your product would suggest to me that you ought to stand by those standards regardless, and if it turns out you were marketing something falsely you ought to try to make it right.
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Old 08-16-2018, 08:37 AM   #2
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This is what I would suggest:

First, document the problem as you have here at the Keystone website using their "contact us" page: https://www.keystonerv.com/owners/contact-us/

Include what you've stated here. That way you have a record of what you reported, not just a verbal, I talked to someone at CS....

Next, after a reasonable time, if you haven't received a satisfactory response, contact RVIA and ask them to give you the "exact requirements" for fire safety escape routes in sleeping areas. Some RVIA requirements have changed recently and I don't know whether any changes were made to that part of the standards.

Once you have the RVIA standard, you can determine if the trailer meets the standard or if it fails to meet the standard. If it meets the standard, any modification would be a personal decision. If it fails to meet the standard, then a NHTSA report may be an option.

In the meantime, is there a suitable window in your bunkhouse that could be converted to an escape window? Depending on the urgency of your concerns, you may consider whether it's a matter of waiting for the system to work vs providing a safe environment for your family.

Please keep this forum "in the loop" as things progress, you may be the only owner of that floorplan to have noticed that there is a problem with bunkhouse escape routes.
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Old 08-16-2018, 08:56 AM   #3
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I think the issue here is interpretation of the standard. I think it says there must be a means of egress in every room. Technically that bunkhouse is not a separate room as it is separated by a curtain only (if what I see on line as the floor plan is correct). If it had a door that would qualify it as a room. Not saying it's right but if manufactures and corporations can get around standards they will.
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Old 08-16-2018, 08:58 AM   #4
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I followed up with them via email where I can document my concerns fully. The girl on the phone went so far as to warn me that if I change the window it will void the warranty on the trailer. So... if there's a fire and my kids can't escape, at least I still have my warranty? It seems like I shouldn't have to choose between those two things.
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Old 08-16-2018, 09:17 AM   #5
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Go purchase the exit window, install it yourself, & don't tell Keystone about. Wherever you take it warranty service won't know, or care, the difference unless you're trying to warranty THAT window. OR, put a hammer in the bunk room next to the existing window.
Problem solved!
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Keystone to do ANYTHING about your trailer, they may change them in the future, doubtful, but yours is what it is.
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Old 08-16-2018, 09:21 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firewall View Post
I think the issue here is interpretation of the standard. I think it says there must be a means of egress in every room. Technically that bunkhouse is not a separate room as it is separated by a curtain only (if what I see on line as the floor plan is correct). If it had a door that would qualify it as a room. Not saying it's right but if manufactures and corporations can get around standards they will.
You're right the rear bunkhouse has only a curtain, but the only other marked exit window is in the front bedroom, which does have a door. I suppose the window behind the dinette is at least larger than the rear windows, but they aren't marked as fire exits. It also doesn't eliminate having to get past the fridge and furnace if either of those were the source of a fire.

Here is the NFPA data I quoted in my email:

The RVIA sticker near the outside door says that the camper meets NFPA 1192, which states under 6.2.1 Minimum Means of Escape:

6.2.1.2 Each sleeping area shall have two different paths to escape to the outside of the recreational vehicle.

It also says under 6.2.5 Size of Means of Escape:

6.2.5.1 Means of escape, if not an exterior passage door, shall provide an opening of sufficient size to permit the unobstructed passage, with its major axis parallel to the plane of the opening and horizontal at all time, of an ellipsoid generated by rotating about the minor axis an ellipse having a major axis of 24 in. (610 mm) and a minor axis of 17 in. (432 mm).
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Old 08-16-2018, 09:25 AM   #7
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While they probably do not have jurisdiction, maybe take it to a local Fire Marshal and get their opinion, in writing if you can.
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Old 08-16-2018, 10:36 AM   #8
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lots of opinions but it is whatever you want for your trailer. if you don't like the window change it. when you do you can sleep better.
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Old 08-16-2018, 11:40 AM   #9
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Also make sure everyone knows how to use & where the fire extinguisher is located.
Maybe place another one near the bunkhouse.
Sometimes manufacturers don't really take in account the "what ifs" situations....they build for the masses.
I have a 2018 Outback that I love, but upon closer inspection realised that the the side by side refrigerator actually had 1-2017 frig with the other being a 2018 frig.
Handles and light console don't match?
Waiting on Keystone through dealer to see if they will replace the one side that is from 2017?
If it fits it ships.... sound familiar-lol (USPS)
You have a lot of precious cargo in that bunkhouse.
I would be checking prices for an Emergency OEM Window replacement.
Make the change with or without Keystone.
I guess this would be a slight engineering oversight...Click image for larger version

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Old 08-17-2018, 04:15 AM   #10
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Fire Safety

Hi I havea differnt brand trailer but thought I would put in my 2 cents. Ours also has a Bunk House. It came thru with a smoke detector in Master and in Dining area. None in bunk house!!!!! The water heater and furnace are under 1 bunk. We put CM and Fire in there plus a Fire Ex.Also traded out detectors in dining and Master to CM and Fire.Also put a fire EX in outside storage.
Don't know why nothing in Bunk House well maybe I do (COST) Trailer can be replaced but my kids can't
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Old 08-17-2018, 05:07 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jefster View Post
I followed up with them via email where I can document my concerns fully. The girl on the phone went so far as to warn me that if I change the window it will void the warranty on the trailer. So... if there's a fire and my kids can't escape, at least I still have my warranty? It seems like I shouldn't have to choose between those two things.
She obviously is talking out of her pooper hole (can I say that on here?) Apparently she has never heard of the Magnuson-Moss. Also, changing the window out with an escape window would not affect any other component of the trailer....unless maybe it leaked after installation and then that would be on you. They really need to get her off of the "phone answering job" that she has.....maybe put her in parts or something....that way she can send out the wrong ordered parts on a regular basis.
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Old 08-17-2018, 05:12 AM   #12
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She obviously is talking out of her pooper hole (can I say that on here?) Apparently she has never heard of the Magnuson-Moss. Also, changing the window out with an escape window would not affect any other component of the trailer....unless maybe it leaked after installation and then that would be on you. They really need to get her off of the "phone answering job" that she has.....maybe put her in parts or something....that way she can send out the wrong ordered parts on a regular basis.
That job description is already filled..
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Old 08-17-2018, 07:26 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firewall View Post
I think the issue here is interpretation of the standard. I think it says there must be a means of egress in every room. Technically that bunkhouse is not a separate room as it is separated by a curtain only (if what I see on line as the floor plan is correct). If it had a door that would qualify it as a room. Not saying it's right but if manufactures and corporations can get around standards they will.
They called back yesterday after my email and asked for photos of the windows, which I sent. They just called again this morning asking about the entryway to the bunkhouse, and is it a door or curtain and asked for pictures of it. You might be right on with what they come back with next.
I'm ready for them if they try to go that route.
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Old 08-17-2018, 08:56 AM   #14
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[QUOTE=Jefster;302604
I'm ready for them if they try to go that route.[/QUOTE]
Not sure there's much, if anything, you could say or do that they will give 2 hoots about!!
If by some chance they say to have your dealer swap the window it'll sit on their lot "waiting on parts" for 6 months.
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Old 08-17-2018, 09:25 AM   #15
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Maybe they won't care, or maybe they'll try to find a way around it, but I'm not going to give up on it yet. The fact is that the RV is advertised as, and there is a sticker by the door that certifies, complying with RVIA standards and specifically that it meets NFPA 1192 standards. I think I can prove that it, in fact, does not comply with those standards.
It's a design oversight for sure, but the end result is the RV does not meet the minimum safety standards that they insist that it does. Make it right or take the sticker off this model.
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Old 08-17-2018, 09:52 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Jefster View Post
Maybe they won't care, or maybe they'll try to find a way around it, but I'm not going to give up on it yet. The fact is that the RV is advertised as, and there is a sticker by the door that certifies, complying with RVIA standards and specifically that it meets NFPA 1192 standards. I think I can prove that it, in fact, does not comply with those standards.
It's a design oversight for sure, but the end result is the RV does not meet the minimum safety standards that they insist that it does. Make it right or take the sticker off this model.
That's probably what they will do....have you make an appt. with the dealer and bring it in. Then, two weeks (maybe) when they call you to pick it up....it's done, you'll go get it and the RIVA sticker will have been removed from the side of the trailer.
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Old 08-17-2018, 10:08 AM   #17
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That's probably what they will do....have you make an appt. with the dealer and bring it in. Then, two weeks (maybe) when they call you to pick it up....it's done, you'll go get it and the RIVA sticker will have been removed from the side of the trailer.
I would not be at all surprised if that would be exactly what happens!
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Old 08-17-2018, 10:29 AM   #18
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It is really odd the way Keystone/Engineers design and build these RVs. Our Cougar is only 24' and it has 5 exits, 2 doors and 3 of those large escape windows. Yours being over 32' should at least have the same. Waiting to see their response to your dilema. Good Luck.
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Old 08-17-2018, 11:21 AM   #19
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I hope something beneficial occurs if and when you take it in to the dealer. If all they do is remove the sticker then you should ask for some money back. If memory fails me correctly, an itemized cost was the RVIA inspection at some $200. If no sticker then that should be refunded. Best wishes on getting it properly corrected.
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Old 08-17-2018, 12:25 PM   #20
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I don't think you'll find them removing the RVIA certification to solve the problem. That sticker serves more than just a "safety certification". Most banks won't finance travel trailers that don't meet specific standards and most insurance companies won't insure trailers that don't meet the standards. RVIA is typically one of their requirements, so removing the sticker could cause the dealership more problems than it would fix.

My guess is that they'll refer the issue to the factory and Keystone will ask for photos of the trailer (so they can be sure it meets the design criteria) and their engineers will write a statement concerning the RVIA standard and why they think it doesn't require any modifications. Then it'll go back and forth until someone either gives up or hires a lawyer. Once that happens, EVERYTHING STOPS until a judge decides who has to pay who and how much. That will take much longer than one camping season....

All that will take months, maybe years of "discussions".... Best way, in my opinion, would be rather than spend thousands on legal help while your trailer sits "unmodified", just spend a couple hundred, install the windows and continue camping. Much easier and probably significantly cheaper in the long run.
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