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Old 06-14-2018, 09:14 PM   #1
Stanbro
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Very disappointed with new Alpine

We just purchased a 2018 Alpine 3400RS. We custom ordered it as we wanted full body paint, a generator, and dual-pane windows.

This is my fifth RV so I am no stranger to the issues one encounters with a new RV. Unfortunately this one has a remarkable number of problems and I am very disappointed with the quantity of them and the seriousness of a few:

1) The TPO roof membrane has numerous sharp objects under it that will eventually protrude through it (staples, screws, wood chips, etc.). It appears that the roof was not cleaned before the membrane was stretched over the decking material. I towed the trailer to the Keystone factor in Indiana (2000 miles) and showed the roof to the Customer Support Manager. I was told Keystone will do nothing about it. If it leaks within the warranty period, they will evaluate it then. Which means what -- patches where the objects poke through? - UGH! I wanted them to install a new roof at the factory. After being told by the Customer Support Manager that this was considered "acceptable build quality" I was furious.

OK, your first question is -- Why did you accept the trailer if this is so bad? The answer is -- the day I purchased the unit, the air temp was about 60 and the sky was cloudy. The debris did not appear until the sun came out two days later and the roof membrane got hot and relax enough to conform to the junk under it.

2) The power for the emergency breakaway circuit was wired without a fuse or circuit breaker and the hot wire of the breakaway switch was installed such that it chafed between the front cap and the pin box. It eventually shorted to the pin box which is chassis ground. That wire got extremely hot and melted all of the insulation on that wire, melted the split-loom tubing it was routed in, and melted against the other wires in the loom. It was a #16 wire, wired directly from the battery to the hot side of the breakaway switch. The current draw on that circuit is over 15A. A #16 wire is too small for that current and that it was wired with no over-current protection is unbelievable. Why it did not burn up all the wires in that loom, or the entire trailer when it shorted to the chassis is a mystery. Built to RVIA standards? I think not. I filed a formal complaint with the NHTSA and RVIA as I am concerned other units have been built the same way and there is a high potential for a vehicle fire.

3) The hydraulic "extend" line to the front jacks split and I was not able to put the trailer back onto the truck until I got a new hose assembly built at a local auto parts store.

4) The light fixture over the kitchen island lost pieces of its hardware due to vibration and the pieces got under the driver-side slide during transit from the factory to the dealer. When the slide went in and out a few times after taking delivery, the pieces trapped under the slide damaged the vinyl flooring. I don't see that getting fixed as it is sheet material.

5) The bathroom shower has a chip in the gel coat on the floor so that black color from the underlying fiberglass is showing. I don't know if a workman dropped a tool on it or if it is a manufacturing defect. Either way, I was allowed to leave the factory with the chip in it. QA? I missed this during the PDI.

6) Two of the ceiling fan blades broke off on the trip home from the Keystone factory, apparently due to road shock.

7) The rear screws of the drawer slides that support the kitchen drawers were only 3/8" long and screwed into soft pine. They pulled out of the pine and the drawers were dangling from just the front screws when I opened them. Of course, this only occurred after I was down the road and had opened them a few times.

8) The passenger-side slide is leaving large patches, several feet long, of black marks on the vinyl floor that I scrub away only to have reappear the next time the trailer goes down the road. It seems there is black material on the underside of the slide's leading edge that is rubbing off on the floor due to vibration during travel.

In summary, this unit is NOT up to the quality I expected from a so-called luxury brand. That they did such a poor job on the roof is infuriating. That it is considered "acceptable build quality" is a statement about Keystone's attitude toward quality control and should be a warning to potential buyers.

I purchased this Alpine due to the positive things I read about the Alpine brand and Keystone products of this forum. To say that I am disappointed is an understatement
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Old 06-14-2018, 10:02 PM   #2
John&Genny
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I’m sorry that you are having so many issues with your Alpine. We have a Avalanche and although we have had a few issues, most of them have been resolved by the dealer, but only because we really pushed them to get it done correctly the second time. I think the biggest problem right now is the current boon in the RV industry. Demand for RV’s are up considerably from previous years and so companies such as Keystone are pushing them off the factory floor as fast as they can. So when that happens, quality suffers. And I don’t think this is just a Keystone issue either. I’m hearing about issues from other premium RV companies like Heartland.

So the question I have is what is it going to take to make the RV industry start paying attention to quality control? For the US automobile industry, their wake-up call was the imports of Japanese automobiles. Unfortunately, I don’t think the US RV industry has much to worry about in the way of foreign competition, at least not in the forseeable future. To get quality, will we just have to pay a premium price and go with brands like Grand Design, DRV Mobile Suites, etc., because apparently Keystone’s premium brands like Alpine and Montana’s are not as premium as we would hope for.

Anyway, I’ll get off my soapbox with the hope that you will get your issues resolved soon.
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Old 06-14-2018, 10:05 PM   #3
CaptnJohn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanbro View Post
We just purchased a 2018 Alpine 3400RS. We custom ordered it as we wanted full body paint, a generator, and dual-pane windows.



This is my fifth RV so I am no stranger to the issues one encounters with a new RV. Unfortunately this one has a remarkable number of problems and I am very disappointed with the quantity of them and the seriousness of a few:



1) The TPO roof membrane has numerous sharp objects under it that will eventually protrude through it (staples, screws, wood chips, etc.). It appears that the roof was not cleaned before the membrane was stretched over the decking material. I towed the trailer to the Keystone factor in Indiana (2000 miles) and showed the roof to the Customer Support Manager. I was told Keystone will do nothing about it. If it leaks within the warranty period, they will evaluate it then. Which means what -- patches where the objects poke through? - UGH! I wanted them to install a new roof at the factory. After being told by the Customer Support Manager that this was considered "acceptable build quality" I was furious.



OK, your first question is -- Why did you accept the trailer if this is so bad? The answer is -- the day I purchased the unit, the air temp was about 60 and the sky was cloudy. The debris did not appear until the sun came out two days later and the roof membrane got hot and relax enough to conform to the junk under it.



2) The power for the emergency breakaway circuit was wired without a fuse or circuit breaker and the hot wire of the breakaway switch was installed such that it chafed between the front cap and the pin box. It eventually shorted to the pin box which is chassis ground. That wire got extremely hot and melted all of the insulation on that wire, melted the split-loom tubing it was routed in, and melted against the other wires in the loom. It was a #16 wire, wired directly from the battery to the hot side of the breakaway switch. The current draw on that circuit is over 15A. A #16 wire is too small for that current and that it was wired with no over-current protection is unbelievable. Why it did not burn up all the wires in that loom, or the entire trailer when it shorted to the chassis is a mystery. Built to RVIA standards? I think not. I filed a formal complaint with the NHTSA and RVIA as I am concerned other units have been built the same way and there is a high potential for a vehicle fire.



3) The hydraulic "extend" line to the front jacks split and I was not able to put the trailer back onto the truck until I got a new hose assembly built at a local auto parts store.



4) The light fixture over the kitchen island lost pieces of its hardware due to vibration and the pieces got under the driver-side slide during transit from the factory to the dealer. When the slide went in and out a few times after taking delivery, the pieces trapped under the slide damaged the vinyl flooring. I don't see that getting fixed as it is sheet material.



5) The bathroom shower has a chip in the gel coat on the floor so that black color from the underlying fiberglass is showing. I don't know if a workman dropped a tool on it or if it is a manufacturing defect. Either way, I was allowed to leave the factory with the chip in it. QA? I missed this during the PDI.



6) Two of the ceiling fan blades broke off on the trip home from the Keystone factory, apparently due to road shock.



7) The rear screws of the drawer slides that support the kitchen drawers were only 3/8" long and screwed into soft pine. They pulled out of the pine and the drawers were dangling from just the front screws when I opened them. Of course, this only occurred after I was down the road and had opened them a few times.



8) The passenger-side slide is leaving large patches, several feet long, of black marks on the vinyl floor that I scrub away only to have reappear the next time the trailer goes down the road. It seems there is black material on the underside of the slide's leading edge that is rubbing off on the floor due to vibration during travel.



In summary, this unit is NOT up to the quality I expected from a so-called luxury brand. That they did such a poor job on the roof is infuriating. That it is considered "acceptable build quality" is a statement about Keystone's attitude toward quality control and should be a warning to potential buyers.



I purchased this Alpine due to the positive things I read about the Alpine brand and Keystone products of this forum. To say that I am disappointed is an understatement


Bad enough we have to expect some minor stuff! Fortunately my 2017 HC has only experienced minor stuff as the 1st year passes.
1 totally uncalled for. Every builder does this with the same response. Few seem as bad, mostly a few staples or etc.
2 big savings here. All of $0.05 on parts and a. Inch on unqualified labor.
3 not to be unexpected as hoses blow. Thankfully oil did not run through the basement. I prefer electric as though slower more reliable and easier/cheaper to repair.
4 light fixtures are cheapest found. Pendent are prone to problems. A piece of sheet goods from the factory and a flooring guy can make that go away. Should be warranty.
5 these are repairable to never seen. Should be warranty and should never have happened. I had similar with a screw that worked through. $40 repair.
6 cheap supplier part. Bad luck of the draw on fixture as seems no others reported.
7 another savings. Just a few pennies in parts but that unskilled labor. Common sense by installer would have dictated longer screws but common sense costs a couple dimes more.
8 dealer should be able to take care of under warranty but should not be happening. Grease?
Today it is get them out the door quickly. Zero QC. Use the cheapest unskilled and untrained labor that can be found. No work ethic is found in any of the factories. Most of your problems could have been avoided for less than $10.
I knew it was luck of the draw last year when I gambled on a new 5er. No matter the name or how much you spend. Builders don't care as they are selling as fast as they can push them out. Supervision, QC, training, skills~~ none of that is needed today in the builders eyes.
Sorry you luck was not so good and hopefully better luck follows soon.
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Old 06-14-2018, 10:15 PM   #4
CaptnJohn
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John&Jenny -- vanleigh and mobile suites maybe. All have problems. I know a couple with a grand design that would be over joyed to have the problems above. At 70 I'm probably on my last. If another it will be another Tiffin class a of only 40'.
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Old 06-15-2018, 06:13 AM   #5
Stanbro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John&Genny
So the question I have is what is it going to take to make the RV industry start paying attention to quality control? For the US automobile industry, their wake-up call was the imports of Japanese automobiles. Unfortunately, I don’t think the US RV industry has much to worry about in the way of foreign competition, at least not in the forseeable future. To get quality, will we just have to pay a premium price and go with brands like Grand Design, DRV Mobile Suites, etc., because apparently Keystone’s premium brands like Alpine and Montana’s are not as premium as we would hope for.

Anyway, I’ll get off my soapbox with the hope that you will get your issues resolved soon.
I agree with the above statement. Quality is a culture and it comes from the very top of the company. I am an electronics engineer and I have worked for 13 companies over 40 years. In the later years, I was a contractor and I worked short-duration jobs for many different companies. As I was moving around a lot, I could quickly sense the differences in attitudes about quality versus time and cost. It only took a week or two to get a feel for how things were run. Companies that specialized in military and aerospace products always focused on quality while consumer product companies generally focused on cost and time to market.

While I understand that RVs are price sensitive, that there are boom and bust periods in the industry, and that money is only made during the boom times, I simply do not understand or condone the total disregard for basic principles of workmanship. Case in point is the debris under the TPO membrane on my brand new Keystone Alpine. It is obvious that the decking was not cleaned off before the membrane was laid down. There are so many staples, screws, and wood chips under it that I was shocked when I discovered it.

I feel fairly certain that this total disregard for quality comes from the top of Keystone as this is a quote from page 79 of their owners manual:
"Because of the manufacturing process, air pickets and/or visible spots may be seen in the roof material. These visible spots can be caused by debris (wood, staples, screws, etc.) that are between the roof material and decking or by imperfections occurring during the roof material manufacture. In most cases, these are considered cosmetic in nature and seldom require any corrective action."
So . . . it is their "manufacturing process" to leave word, staples, and screws on the decking. How long does it take to sweep or vacuum the decking of a trailer? Is the roof not one of the most critical areas of an RV's life expectancy? If you were building RVs, wouldn't you want to ensure that the roof was well manufactured and that it would not develop leaks after the owner walked on it?

This is the same company that manufactures the Montana brand that is touted as the most popular brand of 5th wheel on the market. I am told that Alpines are manufactured on the same assembly line as Montana. It makes sense as they are the two luxury brands from Keystone and they have similar floor plans. So luxury to Keystone does not in any way imply quality. I *assumed* it did. My mistake.

I firmly believe that quality is driven from the top of any company and that lack of quality, while not a deliberate outcome, is a conscious decision by a company to save on manufacturing costs. The RV industry is in a boom time and Keystone is making as much money as it can while it can. Does it go as high as the parent company Thor? I suspect so but obviously have no way of knowing.
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Old 06-15-2018, 09:58 AM   #6
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The boom OP mentioned may be slowing. One dealer I'm familiar with told me today much of the new production is on storage lots. I called a salesperson I know well in another part of the US an hour ago. Their sales last May was 21 units, last month 12. Their thoughts are maybe many buyers have bought. Also, higher interest rates are finding more that no longer qualify for a loan.
Just glad I sold Thor and CW stock after Thanksgiving and the IRS will be too. Maybe a short term slump or maybe the low hanging fruit has been picked.
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Old 06-15-2018, 12:29 PM   #7
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Cap'n John, you need only do a simple Google search on RV sales in this country to find just the opposite is true. In my search on Google, the first nine headlines were concerning the large increase of RV sales last year and this year. Just a quote from one of them: "All towable RVs, led by conventional travel trailers, totaled 45490 units for the month, an increase of 8.9% compared to last March's towable RV shipment total..."
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Old 06-15-2018, 01:05 PM   #8
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My new 2019 Alpine 3651RL has a few minor items due to lack of quality but nothing like the OP has. My roof has some little pockets of air but doesn’t appear to have any debris visible under it. Hope your dealer works well with you to resolve as much as possible.
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Old 06-15-2018, 01:20 PM   #9
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I think the biggest concern with any of the new roofs ... and mine is a 2014 is you simply MUST get on the roof with a tube of dicor self leveling sealant at least once a year ... the front edge to cap seam and metal trim strip is the weakest point. Any gaps allows air to lift it, giant bubble , and soon a tear.

Simple routine maintenance and “get away from going to dealer” for this maintenance is paramount.

If physically unable find a friend or handy man , explain exactly what to look for and how to prep and reseal.

Pay them instead of going to a service center.

Also carry a tube of dicor and gun with you and inspect periodically if taking extended road trips. It only takes a few minutes...

Dealerships are overloaded , many don’t have very many experienced repairmen, and leaving your unit for this routine maintenance item at dealer is just not the smartest thing to do
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Old 06-15-2018, 01:32 PM   #10
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We are in a housing boom in the Knoxville area. Houses going up like crazy. We just purchased a home that was built in 1988. It is literally built like a tank. It has been updated some. We can spend a little more on some things and now have a true solid home. All the new construction homes we looked at looked great cosmetically but when you looked deeper it was horrible. A lot of things I could spot before getting out of the truck. I wondered how many passed inspection. My wife loved the new look but as I showed her things she started getting it. It sad what is accepted.
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Old 06-20-2018, 10:32 PM   #11
John&Genny
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Today I found a very interesting article from Reuters about the RV Industry, and it really explains why we have such low quality on many RV’s that come from the factories:

https://www.reuters.com/investigates...rkers-elkhart/

Low wages with piece rate production quotas, 100% worker turnover, poor working conditions, and the result is your Alpine. But I will say kudos to LCI for at least trying to make a difference in the industry.
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