Are all toilets this slow now?

[travelin texans]

Originally Posted by LHaven

Were you using your water softener at the time?

Both, before & after softener use.

[LHaven]

Originally Posted by LHaven

1. I still don't know what advantage I would be trading off by moving from magnesium to aluminum.

After doing some additional research outside the RV genre, it looks like the tradeoff is that magnesium protects the tank best in general, but mineralized water eats it up faster; while aluminum survives mineralized water well, but does not protect the tank as well in soft water.

This would be a clearer decision if most of the use of the rig wasn't cross-country short stops in different campgrounds. Right now my inclination is to err on the side of protection and just maintain the heater more often.

Ah, I sure miss my Atwood.

[LHaven]

Using your "engineering background" please consider this: "Why did I never have problems with an aluminum tank water heater and I have problems with a steel tank that uses a magnesium anode???

I think if you remove the magnesium, you'll remove your problem. If it's worth a try, spend the $13. If it's not, then your alternative is to "worry yourself until you engineer some Rube Goldberg device to prove you're right"....

My thought process up to this point was that it was because my previous rig was plumbed nothing like this one, with the toilet feed and the water heater inlet only about a foot apart. Part of this was because another fellow with plumbing very similar to mine had precisely the same problem and solved it with a filter. I didn't want to use that exact solution because I had more than one cold-water fixture that was suffering.

Some folks have been looking at the problem to solve as, "you have too much sediment." I've been looking at the problem to solve as "Whatever sediment I have ends up migrating to where it shouldn't be going." I'm concerned that if I have any sediment at all, the problem is still going to recur... just slower.

As I said, I have no experience with anoded heaters. I don't know how much sediment I should expect, and I don't know how much an aluminum anode will still deliver. I can and will try an aluminum anode on your advice. But if the sediment migrates down the input pipe and eventually clogs up the toilet again, I really don't see any recourse other than the check valve.

[bobbecky]

I tried reading all the posts on this, but it all blurred by the time I got to the end. Did you find the hot water going to the toilet? And, if so, did you fix that? I never did see any discussion on whether the cold water feed into the water heater was at the top or the bottom of the tank. It is supposed to be cold into the bottom and hot out the top, which would help prevent debris from coming out with hot water. We occasionally get a little bit of white debris in a faucet aerator, but nothing like you are seeing, but I'm thinking something in your plumbing is backwards, and I'm leaning toward the in and out lines being backwards at the water heater. Hope this helps.

[LHaven]

Originally Posted by bobbecky

I tried reading all the posts on this, but it all blurred by the time I got to the end. Did you find the hot water going to the toilet? And, if so, did you fix that? I never did see any discussion on whether the cold water feed into the water heater was at the top or the bottom of the tank. It is supposed to be cold into the bottom and hot out the top, which would help prevent debris from coming out with hot water. We occasionally get a little bit of white debris in a faucet aerator, but nothing like you are seeing, but I'm thinking something in your plumbing is backwards, and I'm leaning toward the in and out lines being backwards at the water heater. Hope this helps.

Nope. Cold water goes to the toilet, then after only about another foot, into the bottom of the heater. Problem is, highway travel bounces sediment out the heater's cold feed line and distributes it along the feed pipe. Once you stop, if you use the toilet the first thing, it sucks water from that pipe, delivering the sediment into the intake screen and blocking it.

Plumbing photo here.

Majority vote seems to be to reduce sediment, not to block the reverse water flow.

[flybouy]

I'm confused. In one post it's sediment in the hw tank "shaking" and back feeding into the toilet. In another post it's sediment clogging the cold water faucet in the bathroom (sink?)

You seemed to be determined to install a check valve that you are convinced won't get clogged with the excessive amount of sediment evidenced by your photo.

The "history" of water quality and usage seems unclear. You say you have no experience with an anode in a water heater. Every tank type water heater in residential and commercial use has an anode.

There is no "standard" timeframe for changing the anode as there are 2 unknown variables that preclude any prediction. 1. water volume flowing over time and 2. water hardness (mineral content).

I certainly am no expert in water quality nor am I a hydro engineer. My engineering degree is in electoral and mechanical discipline. I have however worked several decades for major restaurant chains and have had many experiences working with water treatment companies. I have a full water hardness test kit and they are cumbersome and unreliable if one is not properly trained in using it. That's why I suggested a simple, inexpensive TDS pen style meter. They are "close enough" to give you a hardness reading as you are camping and not checking the water for a pharmaceutical manufacturing facility.

So long response but here's my summation. You have received what I believe to be sound advice from several very experienced knowledgeable people. With every suggestion you circle back to your "original" plan of "catching and blocking" rather than eliminating and treating the cause of the sediment.

Seems to me you're "overthinking" the issue. I'm out of suggestions. If anyone has something that hasn't been covered I'd love to read about it.

I wish you the best in getting this resolved to your satisfaction.

[LHaven]

Originally Posted by flybouy

I'm confused. In one post it's sediment in the hw tank "shaking" and back feeding into the toilet. In another post it's sediment clogging the cold water faucet in the bathroom (sink?)

The toilet was clogging and having to be cleaned out every single day. The bathroom cold water faucet developed a slow clog over some months (yet the hot tap was clean as a whistle). I can see the toilet connection right next to the heater, but the sink tubing goes under the floor and is much longer. I have to assume some of the sediment occasionally backwashes that far back. To plug that faucet would require me to open the cold tap after a trip before anything else, including the toilet, which probably happens, just far less often.

Originally Posted by flybouy

You seemed to be determined to install a check valve that you are convinced won't get clogged with the excessive amount of sediment evidenced by your photo.

I can't imagine how. If the flow is all in the direction towards the water heater, the sediment should come up against the closed end of the valve and stop. When the water does flow, it should flush the sediment back the way it came. The sediment never goes through the valve.

Originally Posted by flybouy

You say you have no experience with an anode in a water heater. Every tank type water heater in residential and commercial use has an anode.

Not in an RV, not one I have to maintain and flush every season. The anodes in my residential heaters are huge, last for years, and have been problem-free.

Originally Posted by flybouy

That's why I suggested a simple, inexpensive TDS pen style meter. They are "close enough" to give you a hardness reading as you are camping and not checking the water for a pharmaceutical manufacturing facility.

Yup, thanks for the referral. I put one in my Amazon shopping list.

Originally Posted by flybouy

You have received what I believe to be sound advice from several very experienced knowledgeable people. With every suggestion you circle back to your "original" plan of "catching and blocking" rather than eliminating and treating the cause of the sediment.

Well, here's why. None of you are going to guarantee me that an aluminum anode will produce no sediment, just less sediment. It still seems to be that if I don't block whatever sediment there is, I just delay the onset of the problem, I don't eliminate it.

But I've already ordered the aluminum anode. We'll see what develops.

[flybouy]

"Well, here's why. None of you are going to guarantee me that an aluminum anode will produce no sediment, just less sediment. It still seems to be that if I don't block whatever sediment there is, I just delay the onset of the problem, I don't eliminate it."

I think it's Ludicrous to expect a "guarantee" from someone making a suggestion on a public forum.

If you don't understand my reference to your home wh and the anode I'll elaborate. Any tank type hot water heater should have "regular maintenance" irregards of fuel type. This includes periodic draining the tank via the spigot located at the bottom of the tank. This flushes out the sediments and greatly prolongs the life of the tank. The anode is large as it's appropriately sized for the capacity and anticipated water usage. The anode is replaceable and should be replaced according to the water hardness. The replacement anodes used in home water heaters are typically made in sections on a cable to allow insertion while the heater is in place.

I rest my case on the "argumentative" nature of your replies.

[LHaven]

Originally Posted by flybouy

"Well, here's why. None of you are going to guarantee me that an aluminum anode will produce no sediment, just less sediment. It still seems to be that if I don't block whatever sediment there is, I just delay the onset of the problem, I don't eliminate it."

I think it's Ludicrous to expect a "guarantee" from someone making a suggestion on a public forum.

Which is why I said I don't expect one.

Originally Posted by flybouy

"If you don't understand my reference to your home wh and the anode I'll elaborate.

I think it's obvious from my previous posting that I do.

If you had some wisdom to share on how less sediment solves the problem where I actually need no sediment in my cold water line, that would've been helpful.

[flybouy]

OK this is ridiculous.

You are convinced that when you flush the toilet water from the hot water tank is back flowing. From your picture post #54) it appears that said water would have to turn 90 deg, travel several inches horizontally, turn 90 deg travel vertically several inches, turn 90 deg again to join the main water line, travel another 6" or so horizontally, then branch off at 45 deg. and travel whatever distance up to the toilet. Then you have the cold water faucet some feet farther away getting this back flow as well. All the while the system has only the residual pressure in the line.

This just does not sound plausible or even possible to me. So much conflicting info. First the unit was used "twice" , then it was rented out, on and on. Sounds to me like you enjoy chasing "possibilities" rather than "probabilities". Enjoy your pursuits my friend and I guess the "probability" of seeing the next point by point rebuttal is high.

JMHO

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by flybouy

I certainly am no expert in water quality nor am I a hydro engineer. My engineering degree is in electoral and mechanical discipline.

Marshall! Great to have an electoral engineer on board! How does that electoral college thing REALLY WORK? Never did understand it much...

[skids]

It seems that the check valve is needed. I have to wonder if the HW tank forms an air pocket that makes it act like a bladder tank with pressure. Also, I wonder if the HW tank bypass is the avenue that the sediment and cold water is taking to get to the toilet valve. If not, maybe it pipe junction is too close? I probaby missed something important in this thread, forgive me if I did...

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

Marshall! Great to have an electoral engineer on board! How does that electoral college thing REALLY WORK? Never did understand it much...

Whoda thunk I'd have to spell check the spell checker!

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by skids

It seems that the check valve is needed. I have to wonder if the HW tank forms an air pocket that makes it act like a bladder tank with pressure. Also, I wonder if the HW tank bypass is the avenue that the sediment and cold water is taking to get to the toilet valve. If not, maybe it pipe junction is too close? I probaby missed something important in this thread, forgive me if I did...

The air gap in the tank is just that, an air gap, no bladder. An accumulator tank has an air bladder that is pressurized. The entire system is at the same pressure.

The hot water bypass should not be an "avenue" for the two lines to "mix" unless the valve is in the winterization or bypass mode.

If the "engineers" in the room really want to prove their theory then you could disconnect the supply line at the toilet, install a valve, pressurize the system then turn the supply water off. Open the valve and let water flow into a container.

Measure the ID and the length of the water line and use the formula V=(pi)r2h . v = volume, r =radius of the pipe i.d., and h=height or in this exercise the length of the pipe.

Comparing the 2 values will definitively determine if the water is coming from the water tank. If that length takes you beyond where the toilet feed splits off the main cold water line than you would also have to calculate how much of the water is from the water heater is in that "mix". Or could just let "common sense" give you the answer.

[bobbecky]

Originally Posted by LHaven

Haven't flushed the sediment out of the water heater yet, because tonight I'm in a waterless campground, but I did re-inspect the piping, and I am more and more convinced that we have found the mechanism that distributes this sediment. It's completely obvious how sediment could find its way out of the bottom of the water heater and into the toilet, which is the short pipe that goes through the wall at the right hand side. I think the easiest permanent fix here is going to be to put a shark bite check valve at the far end of the blue loop in the photo.

If not a shark bite check valve, maybe just create a tall loop from that point using four elbows and some PEX pipe. Cut the blue pipe, an elbow on both cut ends aiming up, and using the other two elbows as high as you can go, back to back at the top, so there is that much additional distance plus being vertical to help keep the solids from being sucked into your toilet run. If you do decide to install a check valve, you might also consider adding a small expansion tank between the check valve and the water heater. With the check valve installed, you will find water dripping from the water heater TP valve due to there being even less piping to absorb expansion as the water heats up every time your water heater turns on. You may already get some of that dripping if there isn't an air pocket at the top of the water heater tank.

[Customer1]

Originally Posted by LHaven

...I can't imagine how. If the flow is all in the direction towards the water heater, the sediment should come up against the closed end of the valve and stop. When the water does flow, it should flush the sediment back the way it came. The sediment never goes through the valve....

Sounds logical and certainly won't hurt to put a check valve in the intake of the water heater. You may have increased weeping from the water heater T&P valve since you are reducing the expansion space.

[travelin texans]

The toilet is connected to the blue line going through the wall opening? If so I don't see how sediment from bottom of the hw tank makes it UP through 2 - 90s & manages to take the 90 degree turn on the T to the toilet & not straight through to whatever is at the other end of the blue piping, seems physically impossible.
Personally I'd take the line loose from the toilet, drain hw, blow from the toilet end back to the hw, then blow from the other end of the blue whatever it goes to, then flush the hw thoroughly.

[LHaven]

Originally Posted by travelin texans

The toilet is connected to the blue line going through the wall opening? If so I don't see how sediment from bottom of the hw tank makes it UP through 2 - 90s & manages to take the 90 degree turn on the T to the toilet & not straight through to whatever is at the other end of the blue piping, seems physically impossible.

The presumed mechanism here is that road vibration shakes the sediment down the WH cold water fill, where it is distributed along the bottommost blue pipe to some undetermined distance, which for all I know might be as far as the first up turn. Then when the toilet lever is stepped on, pre-pressurized water in the system rushes into the toilet branch tube from both sides of the blue tee, sucking the sediment along with it. The sediment has to travel only about 8 inches from the far upturn to enter the toilet feed, at which point it's guaranteed to end up in the toilet intake screen.

Earlier in the thread, we determined that if I step on the toilet first thing after trip, it plugs every time; if I turn the sink hot water on first before stepping on the toilet, it doesn't plug, and if I close off the tank's cold feed with the bypass valve before hitting the highway, and step on the toilet first after arriving, it does not plug. So the evidence is pretty strong.

Only recently have I began to suspect that this mechanism is known to Keystone, and the huge blue loop that goes all the way to the back wall for no obvious reason before turning around and coming back to the water heater was an attempt to ameliorate it.

[skids]

Originally Posted by flybouy

The air gap in the tank is just that, an air gap, no bladder.

Yes, I know. Bad comparrison, because no precharge on a bladder, but heat that bubble and it will want to expand. Valves off means it can create pressure. If the relief valve holds pressure higher than the cut-in pressure for the pump, water can flow towards an open valve - even "backwards" towards a cold water valve like a toilet flush. I am not saying it will continually supply water from the hotwater tank, but move just enough to start the pump. If the water and sediment goes into that cold line, it can continue towards the valve when the pump comes on.

Originally Posted by flybouy

The hot water bypass should not be an "avenue" for the two lines to "mix" unless the valve is in the winterization or bypass mode.

That is true in a perfect world and it is more likely that a different cold water branch would get the sediment.

Originally Posted by flybouy

If the "engineers" in the room really want to prove their theory then you could disconnect the supply line at the toilet, install a valve, pressurize the system then turn the supply water off. Open the valve and let water flow into a container.

Measure the ID and the length of the water line and use the formula V=(pi)r2h . v = volume, r =radius of the pipe i.d., and h=height or in this exercise the length of the pipe.

I am in fact an engineer and volume is area x length. Your area portion of the formula looks more like a circumference. But that is OK, I knew what you meant. My HW heater is the aluminum 6gal type. I don't even know about his tank but it might be the bigger variety steel tank. I am just trying to help. I am not a plumber. Nothing frustrates me more.

[flybouy]

We are all trying to help. It's up to the OP if wants to accept it or not. The bottom line is it's his camper, his money, and he can do as he see fit. What frustrates me is when someone asks for help/advice and then they want to argue every point but theirs. That's asking for confirmation not help IMO. If he's convinced he has the cause and solution then why not just go do it instead of talking it to death?

To my thinking it's only logical if sediment, and the consensus agrees it's excessive sediment is an issue than the solution is to get rid of the sediment and do what you can to prevent it from recurring. I'm sorry, there I go again using common sense.
JMHO