Are all toilets this slow now?

[flybouy]

LHaven in rereading these posts I'm getting that most everyone is "treating the symptom and not the disease". If the screen in the toilet is clogging up then installing a check valve is "moving" the problem.

I'd suggest finding out why there's so much debris/sediment in the water supply. I would start with using a good water filter when filling the tank and when connected to city water. Then a thorough flush of the water system.

Flush the fresh water tank and pump. If the water pump doesn't have a strainer on the inlet side add one.

Remove the hot water tank anode if it's a Suburban unit, drain and flush the tank. With the WH in bypass, flush all water lines including inside and outside showers. Remove and clean any flow restrictors and screens from any faucets/shower heads, toilet,etc.

Use a water filter and change it when necessary. Do some reading on the types of water filter materials (called media) and what is best for the water that is common tho the area you regularly camp in. If the water super hard (lots of minerals) you may need to get a water softener to connect your water supply to before it enters the camper.

As for the HW infiltrating the cold water line in close proximity... the water expands when heated, the "air space"at the top of the tank "should control" that. When filling the HW tank don't open the pressure relief valve as that fills that airspace with water.

If the hot water still is an issue in the cold water line than the proper way to address this is with an addition of an expansion tank on the water heater. An expansion tank is code for sticks and bricks hot water heater but typically not necessary on an rv.

Once everything is "cleaned" monitor the anode on the water tank frequently to see how rapidly it's deteriorating. If you want to check the water before connecting you can purchase a TDS meter for under $20. TDS stands for Total Dissolved Solids and will give you an indication on water hardness.

Hope this helps.

[LHaven]

The sediment isn't coming from the waterlines or the water supply. I've already been that route. I've already cleaned the tanks, I've already screened the pump, I've already filtered the hose.

It's being generated inside the heater. My take is that the sediment is magnesium salts being generated by the breakdown of the sacrificial anode. There are even occasional fused nodules in this stuff the size of grains of rice. Other people report the same sediment, and it's common enough that Camco actually makes a special water nozzle to flush it out regularly.

The check valve isn't moving the problem, rather, it's keeping the problem from moving. It forces the sediment to stay in the water heater, where it's benign, instead of backing into the cold water lines from road motion, where it clogs things.

I already know my well water, while not unduly hard, is hard enough to benefit from a water softener, and I have one in my house. But a check valve and regular water heater maintenance is a much more tenable solution here than adding a water softener to my RV.

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by LHaven

The sediment isn't coming from the waterlines or the water supply. I've already been that route. I've already cleaned the tanks, I've already screened the pump, I've already filtered the hose.

It's being generated inside the heater. My take is that the sediment is magnesium salts being generated by the breakdown of the sacrificial anode. There are even occasional fused nodules in this stuff the size of grains of rice. Other people report the same sediment, and it's common enough that Camco actually makes a special water nozzle to flush it out regularly.

The check valve isn't moving the problem, rather, it's keeping the problem from moving. It forces the sediment to stay in the water heater, where it's benign, instead of backing into the cold water lines from road motion, where it clogs things.

I already know my well water, while not unduly hard, is hard enough to benefit from a water softener, and I have one in my house. But a check valve and regular water heater maintenance is a much more tenable solution here than adding a water softener to my RV.

O.K. Good luck with that. Rice sized sediment it not "common" in my opinion, it's indicative of a problem with unusually rapid scaling. I think you'll find a check valve with that much sediment is going to clog and stick unless you are very diligent about flushing out the tank with great regularity.

There's one way to find out so let us know over time how that works out.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by LHaven

The sediment isn't coming from the waterlines or the water supply. I've already been that route. I've already cleaned the tanks, I've already screened the pump, I've already filtered the hose.

It's being generated inside the heater. My take is that the sediment is magnesium salts being generated by the breakdown of the sacrificial anode. There are even occasional fused nodules in this stuff the size of grains of rice. Other people report the same sediment, and it's common enough that Camco actually makes a special water nozzle to flush it out regularly.

The check valve isn't moving the problem, rather, it's keeping the problem from moving. It forces the sediment to stay in the water heater, where it's benign, instead of backing into the cold water lines from road motion, where it clogs things.

I already know my well water, while not unduly hard, is hard enough to benefit from a water softener, and I have one in my house. But a check valve and regular water heater maintenance is a much more tenable solution here than adding a water softener to my RV.

I'd ask if, by chance, you've changed the anode from Magnesium to Aluminum??? Suburban addressed this years ago as a problem caused by the magnesium anode rod "IN SOME WATER CHEMISTRY" situations.... For most, simply removing the Magnesium anode and installing the Aluminum anode is all that's required....

I made the assumption (I know, I know) that you had already changed anode composition after the problem first occurred.... If not, before getting things "wrapped around the axle" I'd suggest spending $13 on a SUBURBAN (not aftermarket) aluminum anode rod. Amazon has them in stock: https://www.amazon.com/Suburban-2327...s%2C333&sr=8-3

[LHaven]

No, I haven't. In fact, I just bought two replacement magnesium anodes on sale.

My well water is not THAT bad. I've had the rig just about a year now, and the original anode is maybe a quarter to a third eaten. I'm told you're supposed to replace these things annually, so that doesn't sound like excessive wear to me. (My previous rig had an Atwood, so this anode maintenance is new to me.)

I also understand that what the aluminum rods "correct" is the symptom of the rod eating away too quickly, and they do it by trading off actual protection of the water heater. I'd rather deal with sediment maintenance than wear out my heater prematurely.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by LHaven

No, I haven't. In fact, I just bought two replacement magnesium anodes on sale.

My well water is not THAT bad. I've had the rig just about a year now, and the original anode is maybe a quarter to a third eaten. I'm told you're supposed to replace these things annually, so that doesn't sound like excessive wear to me. (My previous rig had an Atwood, so this anode maintenance is new to me.)

I also understand that what the aluminum rods "correct" is the symptom of the rod eating away too quickly, and they do it by trading off actual protection of the water heater. I'd rather deal with sediment maintenance than wear out my heater prematurely.

I suppose you'll never know unless you try. Have you, by chance, read the literature from Suburban on the anode rods and their suggestions or have you just "heard about someone else's thoughts about the issue???

Anyway, if you've got it solved with your plans, it's all good now....

[travelin texans]

Originally Posted by LHaven

The sediment isn't coming from the waterlines or the water supply. I've already been that route. I've already cleaned the tanks, I've already screened the pump, I've already filtered the hose.

It's being generated inside the heater. My take is that the sediment is magnesium salts being generated by the breakdown of the sacrificial anode. There are even occasional fused nodules in this stuff the size of grains of rice. Other people report the same sediment, and it's common enough that Camco actually makes a special water nozzle to flush it out regularly.

The check valve isn't moving the problem, rather, it's keeping the problem from moving. It forces the sediment to stay in the water heater, where it's benign, instead of backing into the cold water lines from road motion, where it clogs things.

I already know my well water, while not unduly hard, is hard enough to benefit from a water softener, and I have one in my house. But a check valve and regular water heater maintenance is a much more tenable solution here than adding a water softener to my RV.

Actually adding a RV water softener is piece of cake. Just connect to your incoming water supply hose & done til time to add table salt (mine was about once a month).
After the softener my anode would last a couple years before replacing.

[travelin texans]

Originally Posted by LHaven

The sediment isn't coming from the waterlines or the water supply. I've already been that route. I've already cleaned the tanks, I've already screened the pump, I've already filtered the hose.

It's being generated inside the heater. My take is that the sediment is magnesium salts being generated by the breakdown of the sacrificial anode. There are even occasional fused nodules in this stuff the size of grains of rice. Other people report the same sediment, and it's common enough that Camco actually makes a special water nozzle to flush it out regularly.

The check valve isn't moving the problem, rather, it's keeping the problem from moving. It forces the sediment to stay in the water heater, where it's benign, instead of backing into the cold water lines from road motion, where it clogs things.

I already know my well water, while not unduly hard, is hard enough to benefit from a water softener, and I have one in my house. But a check valve and regular water heater maintenance is a much more tenable solution here than adding a water softener to my RV.

Actually adding a RV water softener is piece of cake. Just connect to your incoming water supply hose & done til time to add table salt (mine was about once a month).
After the softener my anode would last a couple years before replacing.
Not sure I'd want a check valve on the incoming line to the water heater, just doesn't seem right! Still don't know how sediment could possibly back up the line to the toilet with pressure on the system or without when traveling, it has to go uphill through the lines against head pressure from the water.

[LHaven]

Originally Posted by travelin texans

Still don't know how sediment could possibly back up the line to the toilet with pressure on the system or without when traveling, it has to go uphill through the lines against head pressure from the water.

The movement of the trailer on the highway jogs the sediment from the heater floor into the cold intake tube, which is at the bottom of the chamber and points downward. Then if the first water you use (usually at a rest stop) is by stepping on the toilet pedal, the standing pressure in the hot water branch of the rig rushes to the toilet and washes the sediment the final foot into the toilet feed pipe (they are really close). The pump won't start cold water flow until the standing pressure drops, and by that time, the deed has been done.

Originally Posted by JRTJH

I suppose you'll never know unless you try. Have you, by chance, read the literature from Suburban on the anode rods and their suggestions or have you just "heard about someone else's thoughts about the issue???

Anyway, if you've got it solved with your plans, it's all good now....

I'm not trying to be stubborn about the issue (although the sunk cost issue of the stock-ahead rods and valve irks me).

I don't know what Suburban gives techs, but all I can find in their website support area are short videos. I've done everything in the first and fourth videos -- except the mineral oil, which is a good tip, and the vacuum attachment, which is something an owner would have to cobble together. So if they have any wise words about the negative tradeoffs of aluminum vs. magnesium, they aren't sharing them with us.

After draining the heater, I made a giant Q-tip out of the heater wand and a cotton ball, and snagged a few chunkier pieces, but nothing like what video guy is holding in his hand.

Anyway, I'm not seeing huge chunks like that in what I'm cleaning out of the toilet and sink feed (see image). What I see is almost like baking soda -- mostly dust, some grains, with a few small granules.

My anode (image) is maybe a third gone. This is about 14 months installed. The "replace this rod" images I have seen in various instruction sheets look like a marshmallow on a stick, and this has way more remaining life than that. I really don't see this rod as indicating a hard water problem.

Sure it's full of crystal deposits and the sediment I'm seeing is pretty clearly broken residue of those crystals. But isn't this exactly what I should be expecting? The sacrifice of any sacrificial anode produces salts, by definition. If I used an aluminum rod, there would still be sediment, true? Maybe less, but that means at best it will take a little longer for the toilet to clog, but it's going to clog.

As I see it, the crux of the problem is that perfectly natural sediment is migrating to places where it ought not to be because of poor plumbing choices by manufacturing. I have to keep it from backing into the toilet feed. I expect that the check valve should flush itself of sediment every time hot water is called.

If I'm off base on any of this, let me know.

[flybouy]

To me that anode is done. The crystals look like calcium/magnesium deposits but they are typically lighter in color but it's hard to tell when viewing on this tablet. Calcium deposits typically look like backing soda Flakes.

I have used a shop vac with a MacGyver attachment of clear tubing to get deposits out of a hot water heater (made it when I bought a used camper many years ago).

If you was a vehicle or dishes/glasses and let them air dry do you get white spots left behind?

[JRTJH]

Let's consider a bit of comparisons:

A typical RV water heater might "flow" 6 gallons two or three times a day (6-18 gallons) for a weekend monthly and 2 weeks vacation annually. That's 12-36 gallons for a weekend x 6 months of camping PLUS 14 days of vacation (84-252 gallons). So a typical "seasonal use" would be about 12x6+84= 156 gallons to 36x6+252=458 gallons.

We're looking at a typical "RV camping season" hot water usage somewhere between 156 and 458 gallons of "hot water through the water heater"....

To "dissolve a magnesium anode to the point in your photo in 6 months with exposure to 458 gallons of water is a TREMENDOUS amount of anode reaction....

If you consider that you've got 3 or 4 tablespoons of "magnesium rod" combined with 6-8 tablespoons of calcium and an equal amount of sodium, you're talking "half a cup of sediment" that's sitting in a 6 gallon tank which normally flows 6-12 gallons of water a day, sporadically throughout a 6 month time frame....

There's no wonder you've got "literally piles of goop" laying on the floor of your tank...

When compared to your S&B water heater, I'd imagine your daily flow rate is more than your annual flow rate on your RV water heater.

Considering the above, can you see where the "consumption rate on your magnesium anode rod is "excessive" ???? If I were you, I'd seriously consider an aluminum alloy anode. Based on the photo, if that's your consumption in 14 months (likely less than 600 gallons of water heated) then you're in the "Hey buddy, you're using the wrong anode"......

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by LHaven

...
The pump won't start cold water flow until the standing pressure drops, and by that time, the deed has been done. ...

As a suggestion, have you considered turning on the pump, then turning on the hot water faucet in the bathroom before flushing the toilet? You're "right there next to the faucet" and if the "back pressure carrying sediment" is the issue, then opening the faucet will force that sediment back into the water heater rather than allowing it to be forced into the toilet valve.

I really believe that changing to a different composition anode rod will eliminate the problem, which (as I see it) is minimal flushing of sediment caused by low volume, intermittent usage of the water heater, coupled with fast cathodic disintegration of the magnesium in the anode rod.

[LHaven]

Doing the experiment now -- sprayed outdoor hose water all over a clean glass, waiting for it to dry.

I've never seen Suburban offer any images for "what a rod looks like this, it's used up" (by design, I wonder?) Images I've seen elsewhere (like here and here, about three screens down) give me the impression that they're engineered to deplete a lot further than mine (image).

[LHaven]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Let's consider a bit of comparisons:

A typical RV water heater might "flow" 6 gallons two or three times a day (6-18 gallons) for a weekend monthly and 2 weeks vacation annually... So a typical "seasonal use" would be about 12x6+84= 156 gallons to 36x6+252=458 gallons.

To "dissolve a magnesium anode to the point in your photo in 6 months with exposure to 458 gallons of water is a TREMENDOUS amount of anode reaction....

There's no wonder you've got "literally piles of goop" laying on the floor of your tank...

Considering the above, can you see where the "consumption rate on your magnesium anode rod is "excessive" ????

I don't think I have "piles of goop" on the heater floor... of course, I've never compared it with anyone else's heater floor, so that is as it may be.

Being retired (which allows me to take long trips on the order of weeks and months instead of weekends) and renting out the trailer as guest housing in the high season gives me a very different usage profile (plus I didn't change the anode six months ago, it's the original anode).

My records show the trailer was occupied for 88 days since I took it home 13 months ago. Using the midrange of your usage figures, 10-15 gallons hot per day, that comes out to 880-1,320 gallons over the anode, or 2-3x your estimate. (Fewer than three weeks of that were on my home water, by the way.)

Now, as all my previous experience has been with anode-less Atwoods, I don't know how much water erodes the average anode how much, and (again) I see these pictures of skeletal anodes on sites directing me to change them yearly. Do I presume that the average anode routinely degrades to the size in the photo when you change them yearly? I have no basis to judge, I just get my impression from the photos on websites. You would know better.

Originally Posted by JRTJH

As a suggestion, have you considered turning on the pump, then turning on the hot water faucet in the bathroom before flushing the toilet?

Sure, if you look back in the history, you'll see that I suggested and tried that during my most recent trip, and it worked, proving that the problem was heater crud falling into the cold water line. Then you suggested turning the bypass valve on the cold side before breaking camp, then trying the toilet without the hot water faucet first, and that worked, too.

Originally Posted by JRTJH

I really believe that changing to a different composition anode rod will eliminate the problem, which (as I see it) is minimal flushing of sediment caused by low volume, intermittent usage of the water heater, coupled with fast cathodic disintegration of the magnesium in the anode rod.

(I'm not sure what you mean by "minimum flushing of sediment." If the idea is that the sediment is designed to come out some hot water faucet more routinely, that's not going to help -- I already removed a sediment blockage from the bathroom cold faucet, so I don't want the problem to just move.)

I'm not averse to switching to aluminum, but I'm a paranoid engineer. If aluminum handled tough water better, with no other difference, including price, the heaters wouldn't come with magnesium by default. I don't need much of a nose to smell an engineering tradeoff, but nobody is putting out there what the back side of that tradeoff is.

[LHaven]

Originally Posted by LHaven

Doing the experiment now -- sprayed outdoor hose water all over a clean glass, waiting for it to dry.

After one rinse, there's a barely perceptible film on the portions of the glass that have been abraded by long use.

The hardness on my home softener is set at 9-10, which I gather is "hard."

The water heater only spent fewer than three weeks on my "home" water, compared to the time it was in service on the road this year.

I'll have to pick up one of those $20 hardness meters. I've only had experience with the "chemistry set" kits, which are messy and unwieldy.

[JRTJH]

Here's the photos you said you couldn't find on the Suburban website:
https://www.airxcel.com/rv/suburban/...-support/faqs# It's included in the 4th question in the Water Heater FAQ.

It sounds to me like you've "engineered yourself into a corner" and are unwilling to listen to "mere mortals" for an answer.

Possibly you could discuss "engineer to engineer" in a phone call/email exchange with the experts at Suburban:
Phone: 423.775.2131 Fax: 423.775.7015

Hopefully they can help resolve your dilemma...

[travelin texans]

I can't say what's causing your toilet issue, but if the anode rod you've posted were mine it would be replaced. Also agree that the corrosion on that rod appears excessive to me for a 1 year old RV. Full-timing we never had one erode that much that quickly.

[LHaven]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Here's the photos you said you couldn't find on the Suburban website:
https://www.airxcel.com/rv/suburban/...-support/faqs# It's included in the 4th question in the Water Heater FAQ.

Ah. I went in through https://www.airxcel.com/rv/suburban/.../water-heaters, and all they offered there were the videos.

OK, this is the same image that Camping World uses.

I see (new data) that Suburban suggests replacement "annually or when consumption or weight loss of the rod is greater than 75%." Earlier, I weighed in my current rod in at 4.55 oz, where a new rod is 5.6 oz. So it's only about 20% used, which I feel better about. I don't mind changing it annually just because.

Originally Posted by JRTJH

It sounds to me like you've "engineered yourself into a corner" and are unwilling to listen to "mere mortals" for an answer.
Possibly you could discuss "engineer to engineer" in a phone call/email exchange with the experts at Suburban:
Phone: 423.775.2131 Fax: 423.775.7015
Hopefully they can help resolve your dilemma...

I haven't applied any solution yet, other than buying parts ahead. I don't think I've been quarrelsome. I just have remaining issues:

1. It's not clear to me that my anode depletion has been excessive.
2. It's not clear to me that reducing the sediment is either a necessary or sufficient goal here, compared to ensuring that whatever quantity of sediment there is doesn't back down the cold water line and jam up the toilet.
3. I still don't know what advantage I would be trading off by moving from magnesium to aluminum.

[LHaven]

Originally Posted by travelin texans

I can't say what's causing your toilet issue, but if the anode rod you've posted were mine it would be replaced. Also agree that the corrosion on that rod appears excessive to me for a 1 year old RV. Full-timing we never had one erode that much that quickly.

Were you using your water softener at the time?

[travelin texans]

Originally Posted by LHaven

Were you using your water softener at the time?

Both, before & after softener use.